Breeding Ethics

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Perhaps a few morphs would have started out a little lower had we known then what we are starting to know now but it would have been a more fair market between then and their current prices now that the basic news is finally out.

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Figures.

-adam

I do not claim to know about python breeding or genetics more than anyone here.
The fact that environmental factors can cause what looks like a genetic defect confuses this issue. A puppy born with a non-closed suture in the skull is assumed to be genetic. But a snake can have defects from not being incubated correctly.
If half the clutch is incubated correctly and the other half is not, and the inproperly incubated clutch hatched with defects and the properly done one didn't, then you would know environmental.
The problem is that a person would need to breed and hatch loads to get an accurate figure. I have a spider that head shakes. I have not heard it called spinning.
If I could get a male that spins, then I would most likely breed to see if a percentage of the offspring have the defect. If it is proven to be handed down from spinning parents, and clutches from normal spider parents are hatched at the same time, in the same incubaters and come out normal.. it woul dbe the start of accurate information.
*I* assumed that it was genetic, not thinking at all about conditions during hatching. I bred dogs, and bettas, and seahorses, and none of those have that ability so I didn't even consider it.
I was told it was genetic, by a breeder. However, I was mainly assuming that it was not infectious, and the only other variable would have been genetic.
Adam, do you know people who have spinning spiders currantly? And have they breed them and the offspring normal or spinners?
I really want to delve into this, as the vets immediately thought she was infected with something having never heard of it before. They were all for immediate death and necropsy. I happen to really like the little girl.
Thanks, and please know everything i am saying is merely discussion, not attacks. If I ask a question it is because I genuinely want to know the answer and am not implieing anything.
Wolfy-hound

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Adam, do you know people who have spinning spiders currantly? And have they breed them and the offspring normal or spinners?

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Yes, I know people that have produced all perfectly normal healthy spiders from spinners. I also know people that have produced spinners from perfectly normal healthy spiders as well as spinners and those spinners later in life stopped spinning all together.

To the best of my knowledge there is no predictable or reproducible "pattern" for spinners. They seem to "just happen" sometimes, and sometimes, when it does happen it just "goes away".

Could it be genetic? I've always stated that it most definitely could be. But, in my honest opinion I don't feel that there is enough data to support a conclusion that it is a genetic problem yet. I really feel that a lot more breeding needs to be done to get to the bottom of it.

-adam

A good test would be to compare the rates of spinning in spiders vs. their non spider siblings (and similarly the rates of kinking in caramels vs. their het and possible het siblings in breedings without homozygous caramels on both sides). A clutch of eggs is generally incubated together and they probably can’t identify the morph eggs from the non morph eggs early on so there should be no incubation bias between the eggs containing spiders and caramels and their normal looking siblings. Also, the genetics of the clutches should be the same except for the chromosome containing the respective morph.

If there is a statistically significant higher rate of spinning in the spiders than their non spider siblings or kinking in the caramels than their non caramel siblings then it almost has to be something genetic and if not the actual mutant gene its self at least a gene linked by being on the same chromosome. There have been loads of clutches producing spiders and non spider siblings produced and a fair number for caramels the public just doesn’t have the results.

The question then is why aren’t all spiders spinners or all caramels kinked. This is where there may be environmental or even genetic factors that mitigate the apparent genetic tendency toward these problems.

A lot of people trying to breed ball pythons for the first time (myself included) are not trying to get hordes of cash, (as you can get normals for real cheap) but just for the experience of having successfully bred their snakes, which , in itself is no small feat...not to mention (most impotant part) experience the joy of watching those little guys hatch from their eggs, with every clutch just as exciting as the previous one. I actually did not sell a single one from my first successful clutch ever, rather I kept two babies and gave the rest away to first time BP owners.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

and seahorses

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sorry for the interuption....

But that is So Cool!!

okay...continue

damn, i did it again