Alright, Loki is a PIG!

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Originally Posted by Forrest

I said if you don't feed them until they are full you could be denying nutrients.

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Not to split hairs, but actually you said ....

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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... there's big difference the way I see it. Stated one way, it's opinion, stated the other it's fact.

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Originally Posted by Forrest

That is a true statement

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Sure, the revised statement may be true, but your original statement that I took issue with is false. If there was a study that says the nutrients in one small rat isn't enough to sustain a ball python for 7 days I might agree with you. Unfortunately, there isn't a study the even comes close to saying anything of the kind.

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Originally Posted by Forrest

(check with vet friend on this one).

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Actually, I have spoken with many veterinarians about all aspects of the captive husbandry of ball pythons and almost all agree that p. regius more than any other species most likely benefit from a diet of smaller more infrequent meals than other python and boa species. I also speak regularly with breeders that maintain some of the largest collections of ball pythons in the world ... some with 1000+ balls in their care .... in my opinion these experts posses even a greater understanding of the needs of ball pythons than your average veterinarian. Again, almost all of the large scale ball python breeders I've spoken with maintain their colonies on smaller more frequent feedings than stuffing their snakes with as much as they can eat a couple of times a year.

I have no problem at all with how you feed your snakes, like I said, I couldn't care less ... What I am more than a little uncomfortable with is the way you present your opinions on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons as if they were fact.

-adam

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well that and taking bets on how long it will take our 14 year old son to make our 12 year old daughter run to her room screaming I HATE YOU, YOU FREAK! (current record is 2.3 minutes but he really was on his game that night :P )


~~Jo~~

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OMG....breathe, Robin....breathe.....that was too funny!

I don't have a social life either, maybe I will make mine Saturday night too.

And I've just been offered a nice work at home job with a former employer of mine, that's about 10K more than I'm making now, so I'll have even less of a social life. My DBF is stoked, because someone will be home with the dog all day (he worries to death over her being at home alone while we're at work, and not getting to go outside until we get home...she never has accidents, he just thinks she needs more mental stimulation! LOL).

Fingers crossed that this job pans out (it's with Nortel Networks). I was broken hearted when I was part of their huge layoffs in 2001 and was so excited to get an e-mail from my former boss. She's negotiating with herself and has no idea that I'd take her first offer, but each e-mail the starting salary keeps going up....my lips are zipped! LOL

OK, how the heck did I get off on this tangent. Guess I'm giddy with excitement! More time to be home and obsessively monitor Kash's temps and humidity! LOL

Robin

Robin good luck getting the job. That sounds awesome! :D

My son is only 5 and is already starting his own mini army. He is using his little sister and cousin as his own personal evil minions. *My son* - you jump up and down, you say I want to be tickled, and on and on and on..... :rolleyes: He likes to tell them what to say and do. Ugh, I'm in trouble!!! :eek:

Oh Robin good luck on getting that new job. How nice to be able to work from home! Wit! I work from home but ain't nobody offering me 10K more a year to clean up after their lazy butts LOL *ponders a strike if I can ever locate any paper or markers to make appropriate signage*

Oh Christie my younger daughter (of the screaming FREAKS thing) just aches for her own evil minions. She tries to enlist the 4 year old brother but he just gets disgusted and refers to her as "THAT girl". I know she'd prefer to be known as "Elizabeth, Queen of the World"....we like to call her "Hoss da Boss". The emotional fireworks are something to be seen let me tell ya!

Children are a treasure (and a really cheap source of amusement on occasion :P )


~~Joanna~~

I definitely agree with the really cheap source of amusement. Unfortunately my daughter is a deep and vast source. I once told my son just to pee on the bushes, since he'd just gotten out to of the pool (and I didn't want him tracking water through the house). Now my daughter wants to do it, so she strips naked squats in the grass and is just so proud of herself. :rolleyes: I think this qualifies me for the redneck status in the other thread. :lmao: LOL!! ;)

Adam,
I'm not baseing anything I have said on opinion. I have based it on my notes that I have taken over the years. You have yet to offer any information other than hearsay. I will agree with you that I think breeders do know more than your average vet, especially one than carries 1000+ balls. That is where my data and breeders data will conflict. I base my information on 1 BP in particular where a breeder's info is based on colonies ( established 2nd and 3rd generations and so on). Also I know you have documentation,because I do beleive you are a good breeder a reputable one at that. Just give me some data so I will shut up.

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Originally Posted by Forrest

I have based it on my notes that I have taken over the years.

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You have notes on the intake and usage of nutrients by your ball python? What method did you use to measure the amounts of calcium, potassium, zinc, phosphorus, etc in both the rodents and your snakes stool?

Making the leap from .... "my snake will eat a lot of food at one sitting so that's how I feed it" to "because my snake eats this way, if you don't fill your snake up it will not get the nutrients it needs and it's growth will be limited" is not science, it's opinion. There is no measure, survey, or control taken in your methods, just your observation ... you feed your snake the way you do and I believe you when you say it's healthy, but unless you feed a ball python the way I do as a control, how can you claim as a fact that ...

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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Because you don't feed your snake smaller meals, you have no basis in either experience or science to make that statement ... therefore it is just your opinion.

I'm not sure what "data" I have that you want .... Depending on the time of year, I feed anywhere from 140 - 200+ ball pythons each week ... they get what I believe is an appropriately sized food item ... some get multiples, most do not ... I have some yearling females that are over 1,300 grams and I also have siblings to those females that are at 600 grams all fed on the same schedule .... I have older adult females that weigh in over 4,000 grams .... all of my snakes are healthy and individually checked by a vet at least once a year. They shed, eat, drink, and breed exceptionally well and many of my adults are very very large. I keep meticulously detailed records on all aspects of their husbandry and have data for many of my animals dating back almost 10 years.

I don't see how the burden is on me to offer any information .... I am not the one making false claims .... it was you that stated ....

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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If I had said something to the effect of "allowing your ball python to consume large quantities of food at a single feeding can be hazardous to their long-term health because their digestive system has to work extra hard to process the excess minerals and compounds and convert them into waste", I would be making a claim that I would then need to back up .... But, I never said anything close ... I just pointed out that your statement ....

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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.... is nothing but opinion unless you present empirical evidence to the contrary.

Forrest, I don't want you to shut up. You have as much right to post here as me or anyone and I actually enjoy reading your posts for the most part .... Like I said, I am just uncomfortable with you stating ...

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Originally Posted by Forrest

When you feed a specific limit you are also limiting potential growth and nutrients your snake may need.

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... as fact.

-adam

I've been sitting back watching this, and no offense to Forrest, but I'm going to have to go with Adam on this one.


I agree that data on one snake does not statistically back up what Adam quoted from you in the above post.

Adam's been at this game with a lot more than one snake, and I think he has a valid point.

Hay, on a lighter note, Loki has gained 16 grams since I got him! Just put him on the scale today, 3 weeks exactly to the hour since I got him and the same amount of days after a meal. I like it. I like it alot. I also think that I may have had a false alarm on the shead thing, nothing has changed. I think I was just getting glare from the light when I saw the blue. At any rate, I lowered the humidity in my tank back to around 55% but left in a humid hide just incase.

How does that sound? Or am I making a mistake?

Thanks
Ray

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Originally Posted by pumba

Hay, on a lighter note, Loki has gained 16 grams since I got him! Just put him on the scale today, 3 weeks exactly to the hour since I got him and the same amount of days after a meal. I like it. I like it alot. I also think that I may have had a false alarm on the shead thing, nothing has changed. I think I was just getting glare from the light when I saw the blue. At any rate, I lowered the humidity in my tank back to around 55% but left in a humid hide just incase.

How does that sound? Or am I making a mistake?

Thanks
Ray

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OMG Ray, HUGE mistake....HUGE!!! ...... Just Kidding! Heck if I know! In fact, I may actually learn something here....waiting for someone with more knowledge to answer you!

Ms. I have the late night goofiness!