Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
highqualityballz
Gfci surge protectors do exist there are a bunch of diffrent brands google it.
Do they? A GFCI does not do surge protection. And a surge protector does not protect human life. Those are completely different devices for completely different anomalies.
Googling also says exactly what I have posted.
This is difficult for some because many urban myths exist due to hearsay. Unlearning what is first believed is hard. Best is to always assume any recommendation provided without perspective (ie specification numbers) is a lie. Then urban myths are not believed. Where is any number that says a GFCI is also a surge protector? No numbers is a classic symptom of a scam.
One can let others do numbers for them as Jeanne recommends. Simply buy an oil filled heater with a thermostat already selected only for that heater - that also has a UL listing (which is essential for human safety).
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
westom
If semiconductor heat is so problematic, then dimmer switches would even be hotter. Semiconductor switching is problematic when a switch is not properly designed. For example, if a switch uses a transistor, then heat can be problematic. Other semiconductor solutions (as found in dimmer switches) exist.
Dimmers use triacs same as proportional thermostats but dimmers are most commonly 600 watts and lower. They are also rarely at full load. They sink heat to the metal frame of the switch in most cases. There is small resistance across a triac and hence heat. It is problematic and has to be dealt with via heatsink and airflow. The higher the wattage the more heat but not linear. I have extensive knowledge and testing in this area. Mosfets have lower on resistance but then in most circuits AC is converted to DC to use the mosfet and then you have the voltage drop/resistance across the diode bridge which then also creates alot of heat. No free rides there. Ideally a trigger circuit using a double mosfet in reverse to each other would be the best solution but it is costly. And when I say costly I mean more than what can be done in other methods that are acceptable. Yes, a $5-$10 additional cost doesn't seem like much but when you add additional labor, complexity, markups, and so forth there is always a balance to be had. So I guess you have to be clear whether you are talking about a one off solution to solve a individuals issue or something that is a production unit.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jeanne
So, heres a question..if one is going to use those oil filled heaters..why not skip the xtra expense of said reptile controllers and making sure the draw isnt too much for said equipment... And just buy one of the newer oil heaters that have its own thermostat? I have a couple of them, and they work great, only I dont have them hooked up in the manner others do to other thermostats.
Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
One reason is because the built in thermostat is close to the heat source so you set at a temp but 10 feet across the room its a different temp. So the advantage is you can put the sensing probe where you want to control temp. Also ideally you get better reliability than the built in thermostat but obviously in the case of the failed ranco that didn't happen. Seperate thermostats may offer additional features such as alarms and safety shutdowns.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
westom
Do they? A GFCI does not do surge protection. And a surge protector does not protect human life. Those are completely different devices for completely different anomalies.
Googling also says exactly what I have posted.
This is difficult for some because many urban myths exist due to hearsay. Unlearning what is first believed is hard. Best is to always assume any recommendation provided without perspective (ie specification numbers) is a lie. Then urban myths are not believed. Where is any number that says a GFCI is also a surge protector? No numbers is a classic symptom of a scam.
One can let others do numbers for them as Jeanne recommends. Simply buy an oil filled heater with a thermostat already selected only for that heater - that also has a UL listing (which is essential for human safety).
A surge protector does protect human life if it prevents a catastrophic failure in a electronic device that would affect the safety of human life. Medical devices would be an excellent example. Or if it prevents thermostat failure to keep peoples animals safe. A runaway heating situation is a serious situation. However, there have also been fires caused by the surge protectors themselves when they fail. So there are no perfect solutions.
Again, there are many reasons to have an external controller.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
@spyderrobotics if i get the power module should i plug the power module into a surge protector or directly into the wall outlet? Btw Im not sure if our outlets are afci or gcfi protected.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
highqualityballz
@spyderrobotics if i get the power module should i plug the power module into a surge protector or directly into the wall outlet? Btw Im not sure if our outlets are afci or gcfi protected.
Use a surge protector. There is still a transformer inside that it would protect and you have the added benefit that most have a built in 15 breaker so you get short circuit protection.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spyderrobotics
So I guess you have to be clear whether you are talking about a one off solution to solve a individuals issue or something that is a production unit.
This is obviously a 'one off solution'. Since other heaters do not have this problem. Semiconductors remain a simple solution (BTW, heat is greatest when operating a dimmer at half intensity. Dimmers must works continuously in a worst state and still not create too much heat. They do). Other solutions have also been mentioned. All must be replied to.
A most critical questions remain ignored. Is it a GFCI or AFCI. Nothing useful can be posted without answering all questions - especially this one. Also not provided were numbers. Semiconductors (ie thyristors) work successfully (not too hot) for same reasons why dimmer switches (at highest heat setting ie at halfway dimmed) also produce so little heat. Details are irrelevant because every question was not answers - including all most important ones.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
westom
BTW, heat is greatest when operating a dimmer at half intensity. Dimmers must works continuously in a worst state and still not create too much heat. They do).
This is not true. Only a resistive based rheostat generates more heat during dimmed function because it burns the excess current off through resistance. In solid state devices like triacs or mosfets they only pass through current when the device is in the on state and therefore at half power they only produce half the heat (only on for part of the half AC cycle). Rheostats are practically extinct today. Even cheap dimmers use this method. Which often is why dimmers are not rated for ceiling fans (motors in general). Because without a snubber on the triac they can self trigger and not turn off at zero crossing. We actually use a more expensive triac with built in snubber on our units which allows them to work with misting pumps and such.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spyderrobotics
However, there have also been fires caused by the surge protectors themselves when they fail. So there are no perfect solutions.
Surge protectors adjacent to appliances create fires due to undersizing (which increases profits). Those protectors do not claim to protect from typically destructive transients. And are especially dangerous when a completely different device - also called a surge protector - is not properly installed.
That is completely irrelevant to and will never avert the original problem - arcing or a grossly undersized thermostat. Problem remains unsolvable because even numbers for a thermostat and heater were not provided. No numbers means the technically informed cannot provide a useful answer. Can only summary the many possible solutions using an executive summary. Is it an AFCI or GFCI. Even that must be answered before anything useful can be posted.
Adjacent protectors do not do what was only assumed using speculation. Manufacturer spec numbers make that obvious. Protectors clearly provide no resolution for arcing.
Once relevant questions are answered, then many useful solutions (ie semiconductors, filters, etc) can be addressed and detailed.
Surge protectors obviously have no transformer. Pictures demonstrate what is inside a surge protector AND a problem with near zero protectors (this obviously is not an endorsement of that manufacturer's product - do not jump to conclusions) :
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-i...th-about-movs/
A transformer obviously does nothing to avert arcing; is not a solution. Every 'solution' is only speculation until relevant questions (ie AFCI or GFCI) are answered. A surge protector does absolutely nothing to avert each posted symptom - as even made obvious by its specifications that do not claim anything that would be a solution.
First a problem must be defined. Currently, it is not. Only its symptoms are provided resulting in speculation that does not even claim to avert those symptoms.
Re: Ranco etc burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spyderrobotics
In solid state devices like triacs or mosfets they only pass through current when the device is in the on state and therefore at half power they only produce half the heat (only on for part of the half AC cycle).
When does a dimmer switch using triacs create highest heat? When at the half dimmed position. How much heat? Depends on how it is designed. Semiconductors are routinely used to switch power - even hundreds of thousands of volt transmission lines. AC is converted to DC from Washington to California, all lines incoming to Quebec, and the connection from NJ to Long Island. Then more semiconductors convert that DC back to AC - without excessive heat. But again, semiconductors are problematic when one does not implement additional design concepts. Hundreds of megawatts controlled and delivered by semiconductors that do not overheat.
When does a computer's power supply (that is constantly switching) create greatest heat? Typically when operating at half power. Heating is minimized at full power - when semiconductors are selected and properly designed to perform switching.
Denials only exist because you could not make semiconductors and snubber circuits work. Others have used those well proven solutions successfully. Which one is best for the OP? He must first provide necessary information. Otherwise only solutions based in speculation (ie a protector) will exist.
