How to feel about the ethics of the spider wobble?

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Originally Posted by Cargorabbit

...has there been studies that show this neurological defect doesn't cause pain - only difficulty with equilibrium?

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In animals loss of appetite is a sign of ongoing pain and/or stress. Since the snakes eat - and face it, a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa can cause a month-long fast in a ball python - I'd say that the wobble isn't physically painful to them.

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Originally Posted by Yodawagon

I won't have any part in it, personally. I view it the same way as breeding a dog with bad hips.

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Understandable, but at the same time, a spider wobble is also not as harmful to the animal than said hip issues (according to everything I've read about it). I can see not breeding something dangerous, but I don't feel it's quite the same.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

For myself, I will probably never own an animal with the spider gene present. I do appreciate the beauty of some of the morphs, such as a lesser bee, but the wobble simply bothers me. I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

I will not knowingly propagate an animal with a known defect. There are simply too many other combos I can produce that are issue free. I do not know the history of the spider gene however, I do often wonder to myself. If a human hadn't intervened, capturing and breeding the first specimen carrying the defect, would it have survived to the age of sexual maturity or would nature have eliminated it through natural selection?

All this being said I would not dare tell you how you should feel or what you should decide. That is up to you and you alone.

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Marvellous post.

I'm at a loss as to why some people go ape about the supposed stress caused when soaking a snake but the very same people are happy enough to breed the morphs carrying the offending gene .

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Originally Posted by MichPlat

I'm at a loss as to why some people go ape about the supposed stress caused when soaking a snake but the very same people are happy enough to breed the morphs carrying the offending gene .

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Kinda' apples and oranges...

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Originally Posted by bcr229

In animals loss of appetite is a sign of ongoing pain and/or stress. Since the snakes eat - and face it, a butterfly flapping its wings in Africa can cause a month-long fast in a ball python - I'd say that the wobble isn't physically painful to them.

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Writhing and corkscrewing seem like signs of pain to me, or discomfort at the very least.

Personally, I don't own any spiders and if I did, I would never breed one.

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Originally Posted by greco

Writhing and corkscrewing seem like signs of pain to me, or discomfort at the very least.

Personally, I don't own any spiders and if I did, I would never breed one.

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No, the wobble (not to be confused with writhing and corkscrewing which maybe effects 1% of spiders) is a sign of a neurological issue resulting in a less than perfect equilibrium. Spiders have been around for quite awhile now and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that indicates that their quality of life is any less than the typical captive BP in an overwhelming majority of cases. The choice to own one is of course up to each person; there are countless morphs to chose from and you can't keep them all.

I am not too bothered by the wobble that can come w spider genes, I have a beautiful killer bee that hasnt got not a wobble or anything, not even when stressed or eating. I remember when the spider gene was introduced into the pet trade, and back then I recall seeing more w wobbles, spins and corkscrews. I think over the years breeders have been more conscientious about breeding animals that display very little to no real problems in hopes of producing healthier offspring than before. This probably accounts for less snakes seen w serious neuro issues presented by the spider gene.

I'm firmly in the camp of "there are morphs without neuro issues out there that can be bred so why breed the ones with neuro issues?"

Spiders and their combos can be absolutely gorgeous, I understand. They make some of the most striking BPs out there. But I don't feel right choosing to create animals that will with 100% certainty carry a genetic problem, and that they may suffer from, when I could instead choose to create animals with no higher than usual risk of being born with problems/defects/disabilities.

The difference between owning and loving an animal with a problem and intentionally breeding two animals together that will result in offspring with a problem is very clear to me.

As for whether the wobble is painful, I don't think can't really know that with 100% certainty. And if it's not painful, is it uncomfortable? Is it frightening, frustrating? Does it cause them stress? I have problems with confusion sometimes and I can tell you it is very stressful trying to make sense of a world that seems different from how it just was in your head. Maybe on a basic level they experience something like that. We just can't ask them, so we don't know.

And since there is no consensus on whether the animal suffers from wobble or not, I see breeding an animal with the wobble, knowing that its offspring will have the genes for the wobble, is unethical. Which brings me back to my first point: you are in a hobby in which there are thousands of possible morph combinations out there to be bred for, dinkers to be proven out, polygenic traits to play with, etc. Why include one of the handful of morphs with a known genetic defect in your breeding projects?

All the same, love and fat rats to all the wobbly babies out there and those who will be born in breeding seasons to come :snake:

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

I won't speak for the snake. How can I? A snake has never spoken to me so how would I know what it is experiencing? How can I know if it is in pain or distressed by it's condition? We humans, in our arrogance, have a tendency towards anthropomorphism.

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I agree with this.

However, the greater arrogance is the opposite - the tendency for humans to forget that they are just hugely sophisticated animals.

It wasn't that long ago that some people (maybe some people still do...) proposed that non-human animals either didn't feel pain or didn't subjectively experience it - for example, making claims that although a dog would yelp and avoid you if you trod on it's tail, it was just a programmed response from an "automaton". I think this was just rationalisation to allow suffering to be ignored.

Applying human emotions to a snake is ridiculous - they don't have the brain-power. But denying they have some basic inherent experience of comfort/discomfort and fear/security is pretty difficult. If there is any possibility that these animals have lower levels of comfort (or higher discomfort) than a normal animal (even if it's constant throughout their lives) then I feel we should avoid breeding them.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I think over the years breeders have been more conscientious about breeding animals that display very little to no real problems in hopes of producing healthier offspring than before. This probably accounts for less snakes seen w serious neuro issues presented by the spider gene.

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This is incorrect, the wobble is part of the mutation, it can not be selectively bred out. As I've stated before, despite the fact that my breeder male hardly showed any signs of wobbling at all I still produced a couple of babies that twisted so much they could barely eat on their own (I had to push the rodent up against the side of their head in order for them to be able to find it) and they even had to be helped with shedding. The wobble is completely random, this has been reported by many breeders. I suspect that the reason we don't see more of the extreme examples of the wobble is because many of the worst ones are culled.