Is keeping snakes humane?

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Originally Posted by Snake Judy

On the topic of extreme pigeons, take a look! http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/18-most-bizarre-pigeon-breeds

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Witchcraft is the only explanation for those birds.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Witchcraft is the only explanation for those birds.

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Haha I know! I kind of love them.

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

False. Are goldfish bred for temperament? How are they considered domesticated and not a ball python. They will never be considered domesticated because most people do not like/appreciate reptiles. And I have friends who buy captive hatched ball pythons from Africa to get dinkers and 3/4 of the clutch is snappy and hissy usually. I dealt with picking through many captive bred clutches from friends and the temperament difference is very noticeable from captive hatched babies from Africa. I don't know but I read somewhere that offspring from boas and pythons of all kinds that have genes farther away from the first generation bred animals are likely to be more calm. It is like the start of domestication for reptiles who are more commonly bred.

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That is really interesting. I would personally expect wild caught animals to be more defensive than those who have been around humans since they hatched. Perhaps it is not so much the genetics being refined for docile behavior as it is that the snakes do not perceive humans to be as much of a threat due to the familiarity and frequency of exposure to them. I am thinking something similar to the Konrad Lorenz "experiment" in which baby ducks imprinted onto him and treated him as their mother. Of course, snakes do not imprint on parents since the parents do not typically stick around to raise them, but it seems that early exposure has a lot to do with this in many species.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

It's low on the priority list for ball pythons since a nip from one typically won't send you to the ER. They are bred, purchased, and sold for their paint jobs not their attitudes.

OTOH people keeping the larger snakes are more likely to keep and breed the mellower critters, simply because they don't care to deal with a 15-20 foot snake that wants to rip off your face every day.

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Haha oh man, that is so true. I guess there would be quite a bit more on the line if one was breeding something like retics or burms. I could definitely see breeding for temperament coming in handy in that case.

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Originally Posted by Snake Judy

The domestication of goldfish dates back to the Song dynasty (960-1279 AD) or earlier. It is a completely different animal from its wild carp ancestors.

You are confusing domestic with tame/docile.

We are starting to make changes to ball pythons. Colour morphs, scaleless, etc. But it has been a couple of decades, not centuries like most other animals we consider domestic.

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Originally Posted by distaff

I thought looking up the dictionary definition of "domestication" re. animals might help clarify. Unfortunately, the definition seems pretty loose - more or less, bringing in animals to live under human care for what ever purpose. (I don't have a paper dictionary handy to get anything better.) The scientists on the forum might have a more specific definition that the rest of us are not working from.

One thought about BP's vs Gold fish: We have the benefit of Mendelian genetics as a model for what we are doing. Did the Chinese have any working model? Maybe the BP morphs have expanded relatively recently is simply because the process of breeding morphs is now well understood?

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I'm not up on ancient Chinese history, but they were very scientifically advanced for the time. They may not have had the Mendelian model, but there was almost certainly some understanding of how traits were passed on.

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I actually read something very interesting on this once. I keep fancy goldfish as well and agree with others who have commented on their remarkably diverse and amazing mutations. According to the article I was reading (which I wish I could find but it has been months now) the Chinese originally had no intention of breeding for any specific traits at all. They were originally breeding carp for food, however there existed at the time a superstition in regards to unusual golden coloring being lucky. Of course, given generations of fish, there are bound to be a few unusual natural variants. They took to sparing the lives of these unique fish by placing them in luck ponds. Originally it was just a belief that sparing a unique animal would bring good fortune. After some time however, the ponds wound up populated with nothing but uniquely colored fish. They had refined the genetics in the isoated environment almost entirely on accident, and as the fish mated they wound up with more and more brightly colored orange and red carp. Now of course some time later this became a deliberate endeavor, but originally it was really just sheer dumb luck that they stumbled upon it. That is, if the article can be believed. ;)

Well, the Barb pigeon just about qualifies as having a "wen," and the Budapest Highflier has buggy eyes, so I take it back on the pigeons. I was familiar with some of these, but not those. A very long time ago, I kept a pair of Fan Tail "doves" (Tasha Tudor's pigeon).

Interesting account on how the Gold fish breeding started. The whole idea of gold color bringing good luck is so very Chinese. Unless there is better documentation, I see no reason to doubt the story. LOVE Gold fish! They are like living gemstones. I have two basic "feeders" in a large livestock watering trough out back in the green house/shade house. Had them for about four years. One of the neighbors gave them to me. At the time, I was trying to start an aquaponics project that never really came to fruition.

I don't know but the term domesticated is very loose. I can breed lessers with bug eyes to make more lessers with bug eyes.. or super cinnamons with duck bills not found in wild stock. It is so similar to what we do with other domestic animals. Hamsters are considered domesticated. They were bred out for the pet trade for coat color in less than 100 years. And their temperaments suck lol. I have more trust that my snakes won't turn on me compared to a hamster or guinea pig. I do not consider many reptiles as "domestic". Ball pythons are such a big industry right now and I feel like everyone is breeding them compared to a lot of other snakes and they are, per say, "evolving" to captivity every generation little by little. I wish I could find the article about temperament and how captive bred balls seem to be getting more "hardy", eat better, etc. I do not know where I read but there was many valid points. Maybe domesticated is not the word yet..

Oh and by captive hatched I meant eggs taken from the wild, hatched in African farms and shipped around the world. I swear those little buggers are the meanest ball pythons ever and I do not even think its the stress from shipping because they do not tame down as fast as captive bred babies as they grow.

1. "Domestication is the process of adapting wild plants and animals for human use. Domestic species are raised for food, work, clothing, medicine, and many other uses. Domesticated plants and animals must be raised and cared for by humans. Domesticated species are not wild."
   
   Ok, well everything was "wild" at some point. And these complex morphs are not found in the wild besides single genes. We raise these snakes for our entertainment and for money from the diverse colors we make with them. And they are "wild animals" adapted to human use and captivity. Ball pythons somewhat fit the bill. :)

Thank you all for your thoughts. If anybody else out there wants to chime in, go for it!