"Less than seasoned" snake owners

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I keep varanids and heloderma...as well as tetsudo.

They are consider "intelligent" as far as reptiles go.

I have kept many species of snake.

Some appear to be more intelligent than others. Some people have credited some species of snake as more interactive and therefore assume a higher degree of intelligence.

A ball python that is fairly uninterested in it's surroundings is assumed to be less intelligent than the boomslang or cribo that is constantly moving about and checking things out.

But does this behavior indicate intelligence? Or is that our interpretation of more active behavior?

Cribos and boomslangs arte active hunters and roamers. Ball pythons are not. Behavior that is necessitated and dictated by a biological imperative does not equal intelligence. In that sense, a cobra, drymarchon, dispholidus, or hydrodynastes that (through exploration) has a greater level of recognition and eventual acceptance of it's keeper does not equal intelligence. I could make a better argument that it's an adaptive by-product of their instinctual behavior rather than true intelligence.

Having worked with varanids and heloderms has muted any expectations I have towards intelligence in snakes. By and large, snakes are pretty dumb. For example, given two water bowls, a heloderm will often bathe in one and not the other. It will defecate in the one it bathes in and not the second - which is why I offer all my beadeds two water bowls.

Many heloderms will also avoid fouling their den, and there is a fairly predictive propensity for them to poop in the same place every time.

I feed my varanids dubia roaches. They recognize what the feeding bowl means and have shown that they can differentiate between one bowl and the other.

With both groups there is a definite and acknowledged recognition of the keeper, an ability to grasp simple routine husbandry patterns and in general, behaviors that are easier to recognize (fear, begging, annoyance, comfort, etc.)

I have had snakes that I have bonded with due to need (namely older ones that need extensive specialized care). While they show an eventual acceptance of more intensive handling and care, it takes much longer than it would in a more intelligent and interactive animal. I become more a tool for achieving comfort and alignment with their husbandry needs than something they look forward to seeing or interacting with.

Conversely, my oldest exasperatum will scratch at the door of her enclosure whenever I walk into the snake house - regardless of whether it's feeding time or not. I have come to symbolize head scratchings, water sprayings, and jaunts into the yard. If I wander off from her while in the garden she will waddle over to get closer to me.

Same with our tortoises...they will actively greet me and my kids when we get near their enclosure.

With both species, there is a recognition that we are indeed other creatures that meet several needs - some vital, some pleasurable. Never had the same degree of experience with a snake...of any species.

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Sobe, my green iguana, was quite a brilliant lizard. I don't think she cared for human interaction all that much, but she knew dang well that's where the food came from, and even learned to do a couple minor tricks for a food reward (such as tongue flicking my nose when I asked for kisses, or coming to her name like a dog). If you didn't have something she wanted though, you were a tolerable nuisance at best.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I have had snakes that I have bonded with due to need (namely older ones that need extensive specialized care). While they show an eventual acceptance of more intensive handling and care, it takes much longer than it would in a more intelligent and interactive animal. I become more a tool for achieving comfort and alignment with their husbandry needs than something they look forward to seeing or interacting with.

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I have an old blind Thamnophis that is like that. I'm the only one he'll let handle him normally. When he was going blind I had to work with him for months to teach him a new way of eating (simple association of a touch on the neck with food).

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Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

I have a question for the persons talking about snake intelligence levels. Out of curiosity, how long do you think a snake can remember things? Such as a rescue -how long can it remember abuse and associate people in general with said abuse? Or being attacked by a rat? How long do you think they remember that rats bite? (That might be more of an instinct thing, but you catch my drift). I know humans have short- and long-term memory banks in their brains. Do snakes have these areas as well? Do they have the ability to learn things, such as door a has a hide behind it that will provide safety and door b does not? Just a sudden spark of curiosity.

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There's what people would call memory ie; something happens and you can recall it at will, then there's basic Hebbian principle. That's the more simple kind of 'memory' that is the association between two things that aren't naturally associated ie; you touch a flatworm then give it an electric shock it will eventually begin to run the second you touch it with or without a shock. There were a lot of studies done on a man whose hippocampus was completely ablated called Patient H.M. Really interesting case study if you're interested in memory/intelligence.
I feel like many snakes rely more on the second type of memory... The way mine will act if something goes out of their field of vision, I'm pretty sure they have no object permanence. I think my box turtle is much smarter. She actually will seem to look for certain people if they don't show up, so I think she can actually recall things like who her favorite people are.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

The way mine will act if something goes out of their field of vision, I'm pretty sure they have no object permanence. I think my box turtle is much smarter. She actually will seem to look for certain people if they don't show up, so I think she can actually recall things like who her favorite people are.

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Amusingly, I recently read that cats, whom we tend to view as more intelligent creatures, also have a pretty crap sense of object permanence. That's why they bat under the bathroom door when you go in there without them! :rolleyes:

Haha, my dog does that. He really freaks out if you go into the bathroom. Of course, I've never claimed he was particularly smart.