When to feed/handle

Evidence is 15 ft snakes that want nothing to do with anyone because for 10 years a rabbit was thrown in and never touched or cared for. Husbandry was fine but damn was he an aggressive bugger. Wasn't my snake but it happens evidence is something hard to come up with for situations like this.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Are you confident in that? Biting =/= aggression.

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It's definitely a feeding response (Is that considered a form of aggression? It was in my neuro courses.) not fear. Theirs are all garters, so they're relying more heavily on vision than a BP would; basing this on personal experience and the fact that they're diurnal and known to chase down prey.
My BP has a history of getting aggressive around food and towards hands reaching into her home. I could see the potential for her to get very snippy and tank-aggressive if she weren't used to hands coming in there and messing with her. Some of my other snakes I could probably go months without handling and I don't think they'd bite. I feel like the truth of the "not handling makes them aggressive" statement probably depends a lot on the individual snake.
Is there evidence one way or the other, like a study or something, or is it mostly anecdotal?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

What was their husbandry like? Feeding schedule? What were they eating?

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Husbandry was/is spot on. I've been working with that genus since I was 12 and active in the hobbyist community for years, so I supervised the setup and husbandry. Feeding is every 5-7 days depending on when they last took food, and they were eating pinkies, which look a lot like human fingers. They are always fed in-tank and not handled often. Once out of the tank, they become very docile and easy to handle.
I think a lot of this is due to the individual personalities, so I wouldn't say that rule applies to every snake, but I really think it does apply to some extent just based on Hebbian principle; even flatworms can learn to associate a stimulus with a conditioned response. Theirs seems to be that when the tank opens, what comes in is food.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

It's definitely a feeding response (Is that considered a form of aggression? It was in my neuro courses.) not fear.

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I don't consider a feeding response aggression towards the keeper. That's the difference I'm getting at.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

My BP has a history of getting aggressive around food and towards hands reaching into her home. I could see the potential for her to get very snippy and tank-aggressive if she weren't used to hands coming in there and messing with her.

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Is it possible that someone misinterpreted a feeding response for aggression and then they themselves were hesitant to feed your snake in its previous home? From experience, this can lead to a snake with a good feeding response that is regularly hungry due to a nervous owner. Not the best combination when trying to build a relationship between keeper and snake... I've seen this be quickly "tamed" by experienced keepers and a regular, appropriate, feeding schedule (not sure tamed is the right word, as a snake with a strong feeding response is an amazing thing).

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Is there evidence one way or the other, like a study or something, or is it mostly anecdotal?

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You'd be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence. After all, we're talking about ball pythons here - who's putting up research money for very many behavior studies on these guys? The move-related issues are real though, and so are the bites that can come from being in feed mode (albeit at different levels for different animals). Similarly, the misinterpretation of feeding response for aggression towards the keeper also happens (more so with newer hobbiests).

When it comes down to it, I always recommend simplification and that's what feeding in their own enclosure does. If my snakes are well fed and happy in their homes, who am I to mess with that?

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

Wasn't my snake but it happens evidence is something hard to come up with for situations like this.

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Responses like this are pretty standard when I ask that question. More often than not it's someone else's snake that is said to be aggressive.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Husbandry was/is spot on. I've been working with that genus since I was 12 and active in the hobbyist community for years, so I supervised the setup and husbandry. Feeding is every 5-7 days depending on when they last took food, and they were eating pinkies, which look a lot like human fingers. They are always fed in-tank and not handled often. Once out of the tank, they become very docile and easy to handle.

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Are you referring to garters being housed together here? If so, it's a different ball game (ha ha) than talking about singly-housed ball pythons. I'm sure you know this - I'm just pointing it out for clarification.

First off I swear I'm not stalking this thread, there just happens to be a new post whenever I take a break :cool:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I don't consider a feeding response aggression towards the keeper. That's the difference I'm getting at.
Is it possible that someone misinterpreted a feeding response for aggression and then they themselves were hesitant to feed your snake in its previous home? From experience, this can lead to a snake with a good feeding response that is regularly hungry due to a nervous owner. Not the best combination when trying to build a relationship between keeper and snake... I've seen this be quickly "tamed" by experienced keepers and a regular, appropriate, feeding schedule (not sure tamed is the right word, as a snake with a strong feeding response is an amazing thing).
You'd be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence. After all, we're talking about ball pythons here - who's putting up research money for very many behavior studies on these guys? The move-related issues are real though, and so are the bites that can come from being in feed mode (albeit at different levels for different animals). Similarly, the misinterpretation of feeding response for aggression towards the keeper also happens (more so with newer hobbiests).

When it comes down to it, I always recommend simplification and that's what feeding in their own enclosure does. If my snakes are well fed and happy in their homes, who am I to mess with that?

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I was considering the feeding response to fall under 'aggression' just because prey drive was often referred to as a form of aggression (albeit not social aggression) in neuro/psych papers I've read. Only realized it sounded different once you said that. But no, none of my snakes actually display aggression in the sense that they're mad at me. Same goes for my parents' snakes that I mentioned.

As for having a nervous keeper, she was put up for adoption by pet store employees who were frightened of her, so that may very well be where that started; and she was just a baby at that point. She's pretty mellow other than the food, so it probably won't take long for her to get used to a new feeding routine. I've really just been continuing in the way she was being fed before without really thinking about it since it seemed to work, but I'm going to try in-tank next time.

btw, this has been a very informative discussion!

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

...by pet store employees... I've really just been continuing in the way she was being fed before without really thinking about it...

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Therein lies a big reason feeding in a separate enclosure continues to be a thing. Pet stores feed in separate enclosures for completely different (and very valid) reasons because a pet store is a completely different environment than a home. When new keepers ask about feeding, pet store employees unfamiliar with the species just tell them what they're used to doing in the store since that's all the experience they typically have (through no fault of their own). The method seems logical and they have the credibility of working in a pet store, so people typically accept it as gospel and go on their way. In reality, they likely just took care advice from a teenager who thought it would be cool to work in a pet store part time who also hasn't been educated well enough to know any different. Yes, there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable pet store employees. They are not, however, in the majority.

Do your own research and make informed decisions for yourself - especially when it comes to the care of an animal that will rely on you for everything. :)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Yes, there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable pet store employees. They are not, however, in the majority.

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I just re-read this and realized it sounded like I'm throwing a lot of pet store employees under the bus. I'm not. I'm refering only to knowledge regarding this hobby, which isn't commonplace in the retail pet industry.

We handle ours from day 1 also. We feed every Friday and most new snakes have not had an issue with eating even when flying in from California (I'm in Fl.) the day before. We also feed in the enclosure. I couldn't imagine moving 19 BP's back and forth just so they could eat. Not to mention buying additional bins to hold them while they eat...