Holdbacks & Growing Your Collection

And..... Holding back more than one male of the morph you desire to breed is a wise decision. One may not make it to breeding size, and even if he does, the females you plan on pairing him with may not think he's so "suave'.

If I hit more than one male Sugar FireFly, at least 2 will be held back.

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

And..... Holding back more than one male of the morph you desire to breed is a wise decision. One may not make it to breeding size, and even if he does, the females you plan on pairing him with may not think he's so "suave'.

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I agree totally for those who have medium to large numbers of snakes. Or regarding certain projects (that double het animal isn't worth a whole lot without a matching partner). And for several more reasons than the ones you list. Snakes can get sick and die. Snakes can be missexed.

But for those of us dealing with smaller collections of snakes, holding back 2 genetically identical animals really limits the possibilities of what we can produce. So, in many cases, I'd rather be delayed in reaching a particular target morph because of one of these types of issues, than be unable to reach many other morphs I'd like to target because I just don't have the genetic diversity. One has to find a balance between the two.

Collections are meant to grow :D

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Originally Posted by kc261

...But for those of us dealing with smaller collections of snakes, holding back 2 genetically identical animals really limits the possibilities of what we can produce...

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I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment. How is having two genetically identical animals held back in your collection limiting?

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Originally Posted by kc261

But for those of us dealing with smaller collections of snakes, holding back 2 genetically identical animals really limits the possibilities of what we can produce.

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It does not limit your possibilities, it nearly ensures them ;)

You don't need to hold them back forever. Once they get a few meals in them and get to 300-400g you will know which one you are going to hold back for sure. You hold back the stallion. The one that hits his meal as soon as it hits the tub floor. This guy had 20+ locks compared to his older, larger brother at ~15 locks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXfAo_4WTs4

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment. How is having two genetically identical animals held back in your collection limiting?

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I said for those of us dealing with smaller collections, it would be limiting. And, I probably wasn't clear enough, but I meant those of us who are for whatever reason keeping our collection small.

If it is a choice of keeping back one or two, and that means you end up with 21 or 22 snakes you are keeping, then it isn't limiting at all. But if for whatever reason you have decided to limit the number of adults you have to 20, then it becomes a choice of keeping back one or two, and thus getting rid of 1 or 2 other animals to make space for them. Then you start limiting your genetic diversity.

Admittedly, that won't always be the case. For a really simple example, let's assume the breeder in question started out with all single gene animals. They bred their male spider to their pastel female and got a couple male bumblebees. They can get rid of the spider male that was the dad, and also their pastel male (assuming they have one), and still keep back both male bumblebees and not lose any diversity at all. But, in that assumption is the explanation to how they could lose diversity. If they don't have a pastel male, they are going to have to get rid of a different male, and possibly eliminate whatever gene that male carried from their collection.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I said for those of us dealing with smaller collections, it would be limiting. And, I probably wasn't clear enough, but I meant those of us who are for whatever reason keeping our collection small.

If it is a choice of keeping back one or two, and that means you end up with 21 or 22 snakes you are keeping, then it isn't limiting at all. But if for whatever reason you have decided to limit the number of adults you have to 20, then it becomes a choice of keeping back one or two, and thus getting rid of 1 or 2 other animals to make space for them. Then you start limiting your genetic diversity.

Admittedly, that won't always be the case. For a really simple example, let's assume the breeder in question started out with all single gene animals. They bred their male spider to their pastel female and got a couple male bumblebees. They can get rid of the spider male that was the dad, and also their pastel male (assuming they have one), and still keep back both male bumblebees and not lose any diversity at all. But, in that assumption is the explanation to how they could lose diversity. If they don't have a pastel male, they are going to have to get rid of a different male, and possibly eliminate whatever gene that male carried from their collection.

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So only limiting by a self-imposed cap on the total number of animals in your collection? I absolutely understand this reasoning, as I currently have a small collection myself. However, as KING JAMES so simply put it, "Collections are meant to grow :D" and that's what I'm looking to do. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Ha! I'm picturing you repeating this in the mirror in the morning before checking on the incubator for new noses.

What would have happened if the odds smiled on you and you produced both a male and a female Hypo Black Pewter Mojave from that clutch?

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I would have kept the female and sold the male.

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

And..... Holding back more than one male of the morph you desire to breed is a wise decision. One may not make it to breeding size, and even if he does, the females you plan on pairing him with may not think he's so "suave'.

If I hit more than one male Sugar FireFly, at least 2 will be held back.

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I agree with having extra males in case something happens (death, lack of performance, etc...), but I personally would not keep 2 of the same thing. For all of my non-recessive projects I have a primary male and a backup male laid out. I make sure I am happy with either pairing, and all is well. That backup male may be the cleanup hitter on more than one project.

When I first began breeding, I felt like I wanted to keep everything. I've only hatched out a few clutches and because last year was so bad for me (two clutches had issues due to temperature spike and dehydration in one of the clutches) I took this past season off and I might take this season off. My most recent good year (2011) I wanted to keep just about every morph that hatched out, but I quickly learned that wasn't a good idea because I filled up nearly all available space. So over the past few seasons, I've been selling a few snakes here and there to thin down my numbers. I'm down to 18 and plan to sell another 3-4 or so to make more room. I've decided for now I'm going to breed small scale (because now that my reptiles are in a smaller room, I don't have the space to expand with many holdbacks), maybe 1-3 clutches a year until I move into a bigger home. Holdbacks will only be those snakes I really think I breed in the future and for which I have breeding plans already thought up.

For example, my next pairing will be a bumblebee to a pinstripe. I will only hold back a female or male spinner blast. Anything else will be sold. Years ago, I'd have wanted to keep any female or male bumblebees, spinners, or lemon blasts. Now, I'd rather wait for that 3-gene animal to use as a breeder, rather than keeping multiple 2-gene animals.