Just a thought....................

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Quick spin to jack my own thread because I can................................
Good eggs is the key as well as larger clutches.
Would you still keep the 3 or 4 egger??

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"Good eggs" was meant to be as in healthy and a "decent" quantity. 3-4 eggs for a first or second year girl and I would still keep her. If she has given me 8-10 eggs in prior years and she is now down to 3-4 that would be a tough call. 3-4 eggs is better than none when I have the room and I'm looking for a certain morph in return.... ie- I have a 1.0 Sugar Fire, and I want a 0.1 Sugar Fire, 0.1 Sugar Pastel or 1.0/0.1 Sugar Firefly.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I love entertaining comments like this that seem to not understand my original post.:rofl::rofl:
As much as you think you love your normals (don't twist what I type because I have my share of normal that I wont let go of either) you also need to step away from you hobby choice and look at it from a business point of view. I love breeding, raising up little ones costs the same regardless if its a normal or a ?? morph. Whats the smart choice?

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You just wrote the magic words. This is a HOBBY for me as well as most small breeders and probably yourself. I don't rely on breeding to pay my bills. My first reason for breeding would be to have fun not to strike rich. I think you're in the wrong hobby to make money.

If you want me to look at breeding from a business point of view then I'd tell you it's not a good business to be in period. If all you care about is making money, there's plenty of things you can do that will make a lot more money a lot faster than breeding ever will. So please don't talk to me about smart choices.

So at the end of the day, unless you're the select few who actually depend on breeding to pay their bills, you shouldn't be talking about how uselss certain animals are. Maybe you should reconsider your hobby/business choices and go into something that doesn't deal with useless animals.

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Normals in my opinion will not go up in value, but that does not mean they are not good as pets or for proving out genes

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the stuff being thrown around here, but I just wanted to point out that it is never NECESSARY to use a normal with the goal of figuring out what genetics a certain animal carries. The same result can be achieved just as easily using recessive animals in place of normals.

For example: In the spring/summer I have the chance at producing some HG Woma combos with as many as 8-9 genes in a single animal. If I REALLY need to know exactly whats in some of them, I'll breed them to Hypo, Clown, Lav, etc.

Carry on with the other stuff LOL

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

thats true, and some breeders hang on to a few normals just for that reason. and some breeders like to sometimes add some fresh african genetics to keep the gene pool healthy. but even then, something like 5% normals in the collection should be enough for that.

but if the need arises to prove something out because the genetics are getting too complicated, you could always use something like a super mojave or super pastel to prove it out. or, even better, just breed it to a recessive like an albino or hypo or clown or something, that allows you to sort out the genetics, but as a bonus they will all be 100% het.

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You can't always do that, say you are trying to prove out a new morph or one that looks normal, a special comes to mind.
Some hets alter the appearance of the animals, only by breading to a normal will the genes be clean.

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Originally Posted by Misha

You just wrote the magic words. This is a HOBBY for me as well as most small breeders and probably yourself. I don't rely on breeding to pay my bills. My first reason for breeding would be to have fun not to strike rich. I think you're in the wrong hobby to make money.

If you want me to look at breeding from a business point of view then I'd tell you it's not a good business to be in period. If all you care about is making money, there's plenty of things you can do that will make a lot more money a lot faster than breeding ever will. So please don't talk to me about smart choices.

So at the end of the day, unless you're the select few who actually depend on breeding to pay their bills, you shouldn't be talking about how uselss certain animals are. Maybe you should reconsider your hobby/business choices and go into something that doesn't deal with useless animals.

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even if you do it purely as a hobby, wouldnt you want to get somewhere? hatch something new? hit your dream combo? hit new combinations? ramp up the gene count and the genetic quality of your collection? maybe hit some double recessives or combos involving super forms? maybe even aim for a world first? well, normals will not help with any of this. if you want anything other than copies of more of the same, or if you want a super form, or a visual recessive, both parents need to contribute. even hobby breeders have ambitions and goals. and generally normals are of no help in reaching these goals, they just enable you to cheaply drive up your egg count.

why should people reconsider their hobby/business choices, just because they have goals and ambitions and normals are useless (there, i said it, useless) for getting closer to these goals?

if a hobby breeder has the goal of working with combinations involving super enchi, or piebald, its just a fact that normals will be utterly useless for that. that doesnt mean that this hypothetical hobby breeder has anything against normals and people that use them, its just a fact that nothing involving super enchi and no pied can be produced with any pairing involving a normal. so dont be so damn judgmental. i dont see why you would ask such a person to reconsider breeding altogether.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Festae

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the stuff being thrown around here, but I just wanted to point out that it is never NECESSARY to use a normal with the goal of figuring out what genetics a certain animal carries. The same result can be achieved just as easily using recessive animals in place of normals.

For example: In the spring/summer I have the chance at producing some HG Woma combos with as many as 8-9 genes in a single animal. If I REALLY need to know exactly whats in some of them, I'll breed them to Hypo, Clown, Lav, etc.

Carry on with the other stuff LOL

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What is being thrown around is good honest debate and the expression of everyones opinion, thats a good thing.
I don't mind all the threads where everyone says how nice your new animals look, but give me a thread with some " meat " and I'm in!
I believe it's been civil and fun.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

even if you do it purely as a hobby, wouldnt you want to get somewhere? hatch something new? hit your dream combo? hit new combinations? ramp up the gene count and the genetic quality of your collection? maybe hit some double recessives or combos involving super forms? maybe even aim for a world first? well, normals will not help with any of this. if you want anything other than copies of more of the same, or if you want a super form, or a visual recessive, both parents need to contribute. even hobby breeders have ambitions and goals. and generally normals are of no help in reaching these goals, they just enable you to cheaply drive up your egg count.

why should people reconsider their hobby/business choices, just because they have goals and ambitions and normals are useless (there, i said it, useless) for getting closer to these goals?

if a hobby breeder has the goal of working with combinations involving super enchi, or piebald, its just a fact that normals will be utterly useless for that. that doesnt mean that this hypothetical hobby breeder has anything against normals and people that use them, its just a fact that nothing involving super enchi and no pied can be produced with any pairing involving a normal. so dont be so damn judgmental. i dont see why you would ask such a person to reconsider breeding altogether.

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This has nothing to do with breeding projects. Read the post before you reply.

I'd love to produce cool morphs but I'm not going to use regular BPs I produce as feeders as someone on this thread suggested. And your "useless" normals are the ones that get people involved in this hobby. I think most people here started with a normal including myself.


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I don't think you will ever see normals go up that high in price for exactly the reasons you mentioned about the market being steadily supplies. The big breeders as well as the hobby breeders have to make up such a small percentage of ownership that there will always be a market for beginner snakes such as your garden variety bp. However, I do believe that with the increase in morphs and the extent that they are being combined it won't be very long until you can get what is now considered a rare expensive morph for very little in comparison.

Also, I believe without the normals there is no market for higher end snakes. You have to begin somewhere and that is typically at the beginning. You don't go out and buy a Lexus for your first car. You start out with the Camry.

I use my Normals a lot to hopefully get a female back of the same male morph I am breeding her to. Sugar Fire and Enchi Fire are two examples for me this year. I have other males I would love to put with a 0.1 Sugar Fire or 0.1 Enchi Fire.... like a Nuclear, Enchi Pastel, Banana, etc....