Morning Gripe: A thought on lowering prices too far

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Originally Posted by brobertson

Man, my posts are a serious turn off to people! Anyone?

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lol...Sunday...Football...:D

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Originally Posted by MootWorm

I think it's all about the way you handle yourself. A 40 year old can throw a tantrum just as well as a 14 year old :). I wouldn't hesitate to buy from a minor (within reason) if he presents himself as a mature, responsible keeper and breeder. Also, there's a significant difference between 14 and 16 or 17, IMO. Basically it's all on an individual basis. If I'm sketched out by a seller, I wouldn't purchase regardless of their age.

On that reference you mentioned, what was the nature of it? Personal reference, or a previous buyer?

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Thank you very much for the input, I am really working hard at making a solid rep for myself. I would love not to have to drop my pricing, I'm just a bit worried about the possibility. My one reference is a sale, and I am certainly happy to have that, even if it isn't on the BOI. Any other sage words? I really appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by brobertson

Thank you very much for the input, I am really working hard at making a solid rep for myself. I would love not to have to drop my pricing, I'm just a bit worried about the possibility. My one reference is a sale, and I am certainly happy to have that, even if it isn't on the BOI. Any other sage words? I really appreciate it.

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Yes see if the buyer is willing to put it up... it doesn't do any good if the reference isn't seen.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

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Originally Posted by sho220

"what is my time availability to do this?" < You're spot on and I don't think people consider that enough. I think that's what leads to a lot of the "collection for sale" ads. I've seen it in other hobbies...cars, guns, bikes...etc...some folks just get way carried away, get overwhelmed and just bail on the whole thing. I see it every day on the car forums...a guy will spend all his money and all his time "modding" his car that never leaves his driveway because it's always broken or being worked on. Eventually he loses interest/runs out or money/runs out of time or gets sick of having a car he can't drive and bails...and takes a beating because he'll NEVER recover all the funds he spent. I've avoided that pitfall by keeping a small, manageable collection...I've kept my collection to around a dozen (not counting hatchings every year) and that's helped keep it managable as far as my time goes. Like any other hobby, it's a balancing act between that and all the other commitments we all have...

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:clap: very well said, very well said. I think that is exactly what it comes down to...a balancing act. What size collection am i able to balance with the time and money i have available to give it? For some, its only one or two snakes. For others, its 50+. I agree about most of the collection sales too. It became overwhelming to the person because their collection went waay over their balance, so they had to sell out fast to regain some of that balance back. However, i think there is one other element added with long term keepers.....and that is passion. Things can get tough sometimes as far as time and money go, but because of the passion they have for their collection, they somehow make it go right to find the money and/or time to keep their collection.

sent from my incubator

Wow, I go away for the day and a this discussion seems to have opened up!

Raven01: I honestly wasn't 100% sure how to read all your points, so may be have misread some arguements as mere statements, and mere staements (or agreeances even) as arguements. Some points I couldn't tell if you were argueing me, arguing him, or both, so I had to assume. I am not attacking you, but if you are going to go through the trouble of giving this many arguements, I feel I should justify some points, elaborate on others, and so forth for the simple fct of furthering discussion, which was the desired result of the original post. i just read over my answers and realized that they raise further arguments and questions, but I am ok with that as it can only further opening up discussion.

This may be the fault of misreading some of your points:
Please realize that this is also full of elaboration of points that go beyond the single factor of the business side of a hobby being nit picked on, the posting was focused on only few points of many many factors. Please try to keep it in the one or two factors and not try to turn this into an entire 10 week course on business and economics, there are just too many points to consider there. However I agree that every little thnig is important to discuss.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Why?
That person owes you nothing and, your snakes owe you nothing.
Perhaps you should consider another hobby/business.
The cartel business model will kill this hobby faster than anything. It will also kill prices as you quickly run out of people willing to pay $X for a particular gene, all the while everyone with it is breeding hoping to make a profit.
Supply quickly exceeds demand at a high price point. There is no getting around that simple fact.

Also, buying a $20K hatchling and expecting a ton of sales in the $10+K range is simple ignorance of basic economics on the part of the breeder. And, not realising that when you add up all of your $2-8K sales if you haven't made a decent profit either you have seriously offended the "Odds Gods" or that you may want to examine your business model for other flaws is again, the fault of the breeder.

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No one owes anything to anyone. It was subtle, but I said it in a different way when I said everybody expects something for free. People expect things to come there way just as people expect not to have to give things. If a person is trying to move something, they will try to sell even at lower costs, if they are trying to get a set amount and not go lower, they will hold on, but if a person wants both halves to play out in their favor, well ain't gonna happen. This is how it plays out for an individual. But the market and the effects of the individuals within it and these many expectations of both buyer and sellers....
Supply exceeds demands, but is the demand to get the snakes, or to make the money? It should be to get the snakes (unless you are a breeder and your livelyhood depends on it, but I am not talking about that, although I did reference it before), but when a market is so shaken by an imbalance of the individuals within it, neither side is winning and this leads into a crash. The crash of the market is a concern because than we cannot afford to have these wonderful snakes we demand in collections, especially in balls where the egg count is low and a bad year can kill a persons ability to stay in their hobby. Sound like a giant runaround? Because in many ways it is. The arguements you present focus on each individual, but the gripe is about protecting the market that is flooded with more supply than demand, so the runaround continues... It comes down alot to the concern not being breeding to make the profit, but just to stay in the hobby, and that relies on finding the balance within the market to keep that market afloat. That's why I say I want to yell at them but can't, not to say "raise your prices so we can make money," but because affording a collection requires the market, otherwise many could not be able to afford the collection. Think about it, what if all balls were $10-20 no matter the morph? 5-10 eggs a year means feeding , heating, bedding, and housing the snake exceeds, thus only the rich can afford an actual collection. Anyone should ask themselves: are you super rich to afford your collection in this scenario, especially in the event of a bad year?

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Originally Posted by Raven01

If you think the "new" price is set by a two price here or there, call whatever school gave you an economics degree and demand your money back. And, if you are setting your prices based on a few lower price ads, get out of the business end of the hobby entirely for your own sake.

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Prices are set by many factors. I am griping about one. Just one; so to respond to this point I would need to get into everything from retail costs and overhead to supply versus demand to quality and everything in between, which would lead into more than I have time for. You seem to understand this, but the problem is many don't and they are not setting their prices off knowledge of anything except the other prices they see. That's what i am harping on, and not for business, but the basic comparison of cost of the snakes versus what they can bring in to help support a person's hobby....

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Breeders like JKR, Rio Bravo, Henry Piorun, BHB, NERD, Markus Jayne, etc are able to if they desire command a higher price for the exact same animal than any basement breeder.
Why? Because, their brand adds value due to the years of experience (i.e. not throwing a new morph at every normal female they can afford and turning out very mixed results) and, the assurance that you will get what you paid for or, if there is a problem it will be dealt with in a professional manner. And, because you are dealing with "best of the best" examples of the morphs you are looking at. That isn't to say that new breeders and basement hobbyists cannot also focus in this direction (in fact I would suggest that they should do exactly this). Just that without the known brand you are going to have trouble commanding the same price when part of the value is the brand.

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... Aside from the hobby though, these big guys have a brand, but also have competition from everyone else out there. Aside from needing to cover their own business costs (said before that I can't easily get into all the factors) it is the quality of the genes, the snakes, and so forth that makes a brand what it is. I would pay extra to get a snake from any of these guys, period, no questions asked. Thing is the less experienced that don't realize these little things raise their prices because of quality and brand to try to compete and complain that they can't get what others get. Likewise big guys complain about the little guys, but are at least professional about how they do it. Don't expect to get what they ask, but strive for the same things they represent and at least this will keep you off the BOI with complaints if absolutely nothing else. This can help balance for both sides. I wholeheartedly agree with your entire paragraph here, but want to point out the separation of these names with smaller hobbyists trying to compare to them is not seen by newer persons to the hobby, many who do not even know these big names nor little names. This is where it comes into being many factors about the market that many do not consider. What I was saying in my original gripe ties into if you cannot compete with these guys though, don't try to undercut them and everyone else as severely as people have been doing, strive to be up there with them in all apsects

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Hold on a minute. So, his market was very limited geographically and, he was losing sales to people that could ship?
So, either they were also close to this "undercut" price or they were willing to pay more for other factors.

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...Or there were no interested parties close enough to him, and any that were were willing to pay the extra shipping with or without extra cost of the snake to get from someone better known. I reference treating the hobby as a business if that's what you are trying to do, and reaching your customers is a big factor, especailly when they are not nearby.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

Which is what this thread comes off as.

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The complaint within this thread I have is not that the entire market is unfair to me. I can sell off what I have right now for under the competition and still be happy with what I made. Prices dropping and this will still apply for a few years at very least, But if the market dies completely (again, what is morphs had no value and your couldn't support your collection), I (and others) cannot stay in the hobby with as many snakes as I have. I don't want to see the market go that low for the sake of the entire hobby and the concern is the rate at which the hobby has a potential to get so low. But i also don't want to see people complain in the event that it dies that it was everybody else's fault. I simple want everybody to acknowledge that we are all part of the market and in charge of protecting it as best we can: In that argument, yes, it is unfair and in that sense that is what this thread is saying, but unfair to the hobby and many in it, not just unfair to one person. Sorry if you (any person, not just saying the poster of this argument) are so good at this that you don't also feel it is unfair to have the potential of your hobby ripped from you and others, and as well choose not to acknowledge this factor. However I do hate when the argument made is not the hobby being ripped from the hobbyist, but that the making of millions in this hobby is being ripped from an individual.

:gj:
Now, this makes much more sense. And, honestly is the hobby (and the animals) not better off every single time somebody like this gets frustrated and leaves the hobby?[/QUOTE]

I think it's great for these types to get out. Leave it for people who want the hobby first and the money later. If you make extra money (as a hobbyist), that is a perk, otherwise you are a business if you are relying on the income completely, and that is another discussion all together.


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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

It's been the same thing for as long as I have been in the hobby.
More and more hobbyist breeding more and more snakes.
There's just no way the market can consume the quantity of snakes that are being produced.
Price drops are going to continue to happen as long as the supply is many times what the demand is.

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That's something we all need to realize, it's the way it is and has been and will continue to be. Unfortunately, as I said above, it is also not anything that can be controlled.... but in my opinion if people pay attention to these little things, it can help the situation.

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Originally Posted by brobertson

I would love to get some input on this topic because I feel like I have some similarities to the "John Doe" that was spoken about by the OP. I am 16, and I do plan on breeding my BPs within the next year or so. My one pairing also has the potential to produce some pretty high-end snakes.

I would really appreciate a little input on this subject because I know that many people would be understandably nervous about purchasing from me. Do I just have to accept that many people aren't willing to take the risk of buying from me, or is there anything I can do to make them feel more secure with the purchase? Also, if many buyers on the market are this nervous about buying from a minor, I feel that it would be difficult for me to sell my animals without doing a pretty significant price drop. I can sit on my hatchlings for a pretty long time, but it would obviously hurt me financially. Is there any way to get around this? I have a reference, but it isn't even on the BOI, and apart from that I would have to rely on my decent reputation here. I believe that I have quality breeders who will produce quality babies, but are these reasonable concerns? Thanks!

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This was best answered already, so I just want to say Good luck, we all had to start somewhere and the important thing is to not let your age be the factor in your breeding and selling, but the snakes instead. Also focus on the suggestion made about your maturity as well. If those things are what you focus on, your age won't matter.

It's business, and those people can do exactly what they want. This isn't necessarily directed at you, but people who say stuff like this are whining.

Here's how I see it, right now Mike Wilbanks (big name) has Firefly males and females both priced at $650. There are people out there willing to pay that. But! Go to Kingsnake and Joe Blow (small name) is selling them for $299 (or that's the ad I saw last week). Now me, personally, with my first pairing going to be shooting at firefly's, I can sell them like hot cakes at $200 and make my money to move on to the next project.

If that isn't perfect business SENSE I don't know what is. And to be honest, if you're so concerned with it then buy my $200 firefly and sell it at Kingsnake or Wilbanks price and make your own profit (we call that power selling, in business).

What I'm getting at is, people who have this mentality are annoying. It frustrates me just as much if not more as it would to get emails asking for pics and weights from people who don't have any intention of buying said animals, to get emails from some complaining about my prices. Don't like it? Buy it and sell it yourself. I'm not here to make a profit, if I do great, I'm looking at making my hobby pay for itself. And, if I don't have to work my 9-5 at the end of the day to pay for my bills AND my hobby, I'm farther ahead than I anticipated.

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Originally Posted by brobertson

I would love to get some input on this topic because I feel like I have some similarities to the "John Doe" that was spoken about by the OP. I am 16, and I do plan on breeding my BPs within the next year or so. My one pairing also has the potential to produce some pretty high-end snakes.

I would really appreciate a little input on this subject because I know that many people would be understandably nervous about purchasing from me. Do I just have to accept that many people aren't willing to take the risk of buying from me, or is there anything I can do to make them feel more secure with the purchase? Also, if many buyers on the market are this nervous about buying from a minor, I feel that it would be difficult for me to sell my animals without doing a pretty significant price drop. I can sit on my hatchlings for a pretty long time, but it would obviously hurt me financially. Is there any way to get around this? I have a reference, but it isn't even on the BOI, and apart from that I would have to rely on my decent reputation here. I believe that I have quality breeders who will produce quality babies, but are these reasonable concerns? Thanks!

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You are a minor. Legally a minor can not be held in a court to uphold a contract, which is a big reason you can't get a credit card until you turn 18 - you could run up a huge bill and tell Visa or MC to take a flying leap. There's nothing you can do about it other than wait. This site does a good job explaining it:
http://contract-law.laws.com/consideration/minors

That doesn't mean I won't buy from you, it's just that I know there's a bigger risk on my side of the transaction on an interstate sale, and that means you either won't be able to charge as much as other sellers, or you'll be better off with local/face-to-face cash sales for the time being.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

It's business, and those people can do exactly what they want. This isn't necessarily directed at you, but people who say stuff like this are whining.

Here's how I see it, right now Mike Wilbanks (big name) has Firefly males and females both priced at $650. There are people out there willing to pay that. But! Go to Kingsnake and Joe Blow (small name) is selling them for $299 (or that's the ad I saw last week). Now me, personally, with my first pairing going to be shooting at firefly's, I can sell them like hot cakes at $200 and make my money to move on to the next project.

If that isn't perfect business SENSE I don't know what is. And to be honest, if you're so concerned with it then buy my $200 firefly and sell it at Kingsnake or Wilbanks price and make your own profit (we call that power selling, in business).

What I'm getting at is, people who have this mentality are annoying. It frustrates me just as much if not more as it would to get emails asking for pics and weights from people who don't have any intention of buying said animals, to get emails from some complaining about my prices. Don't like it? Buy it and sell it yourself. I'm not here to make a profit, if I do great, I'm looking at making my hobby pay for itself. And, if I don't have to work my 9-5 at the end of the day to pay for my bills AND my hobby, I'm farther ahead than I anticipated.

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Allow me to give you a hypothetical:
Python ban succeeds. The next attack is smaller pythons. It succeeds. All these bigger breeders that have employees, overhead, insurance whatever that may raise their costs deem it isn't worth it to stay in. They close and now there are now more higher costs to compare to. Now the only competition is you versus others. No more genes are coming in, especially because banned or not, alot do come from large breeders. Smaller breeders have no new genes left, so all genes available are now set with no possibility of change. Now the only thing to hope is what is available stays above the same costs as a normal.

You undercut from $600 (they're charging) to $200 (your charging) now. Someone wants to undercut you, they go lower. So on and so forth. <-- this is how it works, like you said, yes.
So nothing new coming in, all you can do is watch as everything drops because there are no more higher priced snakes and every combo possible becomes available and also drops. In no time you are left with extremely nice snakes, but no value. Suddenyl you can't sell the snakes you still have either because no one is buying. Now you need a 9-5 to support yourself and your hobby, which you don't care for anymore because you can't make a quick buck off it anymore.

Now instead all this happens from the first paragraph, but instead you slow down this dropping by not having done such a dramatic undercut in the past, as does the others undercutting your undercut. The market, now limited to set genes, will last longer one this merit alone. It can prolong things by not pursuing such a quick sale now. You want to make $200 on a $600 snake, well what if there is not $600 snake anymore? You can't move on to the next project if you aren't able to afford it, much less your current project.

You call it business sense, but good business sense also includes thinking long term, not just what you can make now.

My point stands in the current situation, though you are right in your hypothetical.

In my opinion, people are too afraid to undercut an undercut especially when it's already that low. I'll admit I'm talking more on a show level than Internet Sales, but the point is the same.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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Originally Posted by brobertson

I would love to get some input on this topic because I feel like I have some similarities to the "John Doe" that was spoken about by the OP. I am 16, and I do plan on breeding my BPs within the next year or so. My one pairing also has the potential to produce some pretty high-end snakes.



I would really appreciate a little input on this subject because I know that many people would be understandably nervous about purchasing from me. Do I just have to accept that many people aren't willing to take the risk of buying from me, or is there anything I can do to make them feel more secure with the purchase? Also, if many buyers on the market are this nervous about buying from a minor, I feel that it would be difficult for me to sell my animals without doing a pretty significant price drop. I can sit on my hatchlings for a pretty long time, but it would obviously hurt me financially. Is there any way to get around this? I have a reference, but it isn't even on the BOI, and apart from that I would have to rely on my decent reputation here. I believe that I have quality breeders who will produce quality babies, but are these reasonable concerns? Thanks!

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Speaking as someone who was in "business" as a minor (breeding pet rats instead of ball pythons), and as someone who is now an adult in business (not ball pythons or pet rats, but an entirely different personal business), a few things come to mind...

Maturity is going to get you every where. Read, research, learn everything you can about your chosen hobby/business, and the animals you are keeping, breeding, and selling. Look at how you present yourself to the outside world. Be able to admit your mistakes when you make them (and you will make mistakes, we all do, we are only human), and do everything you can to make it right. Maturity will get you everywhere at your age. If you come off as mature in your communication with others, your age may not even come up. If it doesn't even come up, you won't have to worry about it.

Make sure you have an adult supporting you and standing with you in this business venture. By this I don't necessarily mean financial support, but because you are a minor and cannot legally enter into a contract, I highly recommend having an adult who will stand with you in the event something does go wrong. This isn't so the adult can take the fall for you (and if both of you go about it the right way there hopefully never will be a devastating fall) if something goes wrong, but because some people would like to see an adult backing you to be sure you do have guidance and are going about it the right way. If you don't have an adult standing behind you, you can still try it, just know some potential buyers will back out because they are uncomfortable with the risk on their end of doing business with a minor. And they have every right to be uncomfortable. Be honest, be upfront, but also be respectful and understand why others may feel this way.

Focus on local cash-based transactions. As a minor you won't be able to take credit cards, unless you have an adult working with you who can. I don't think you can sign up for an account to ship reptiles either, or even a PayPal account, unless you have an adult signing up for you (then legally that adult is the one liable should something go wrong, that's why I say have an adult supporting and working with you - it will open up your options to a wider audience, how you work out this deal with that adult is between the two of you). So one way or another, unless you have that supporting adult, you'll be forced into local transactions only. Cash-based is important, because checks can be fraudulent, and that will hurt you. (I recently had a check from a customer bounce. Fortunately that customer paid half in cash and half in check, so I didn't lose money, but I also didn't make money. Not happy about it, but could have been much worse.)

Another thing about having an adult supporting and working with you - it gives you more backbone. There are people out there who will try to take advantage of you as a minor. They are few and far between (in my experience), but they are out there. Having a supporting adult doesn't mean they won't try to take advantage of you, but it means you have a better foundation to get you through it if they do try it.

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Originally Posted by WtGreg

Allow me to give you a hypothetical:
Python ban succeeds. The next attack is smaller pythons. It succeeds. All these bigger breeders that have employees, overhead, insurance whatever that may raise their costs deem it isn't worth it to stay in. They close and now there are now more higher costs to compare to. Now the only competition is you versus others. No more genes are coming in, especially because banned or not, alot do come from large breeders. Smaller breeders have no new genes left, so all genes available are now set with no possibility of change. Now the only thing to hope is what is available stays above the same costs as a normal.

You undercut from $600 (they're charging) to $200 (your charging) now. Someone wants to undercut you, they go lower. So on and so forth. <-- this is how it works, like you said, yes.
So nothing new coming in, all you can do is watch as everything drops because there are no more higher priced snakes and every combo possible becomes available and also drops. In no time you are left with extremely nice snakes, but no value. Suddenyl you can't sell the snakes you still have either because no one is buying. Now you need a 9-5 to support yourself and your hobby, which you don't care for anymore because you can't make a quick buck off it anymore.

Now instead all this happens from the first paragraph, but instead you slow down this dropping by not having done such a dramatic undercut in the past, as does the others undercutting your undercut. The market, now limited to set genes, will last longer one this merit alone. It can prolong things by not pursuing such a quick sale now. You want to make $200 on a $600 snake, well what if there is not $600 snake anymore? You can't move on to the next project if you aren't able to afford it, much less your current project.

You call it business sense, but good business sense also includes thinking long term, not just what you can make now.

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For what my word is worth, as little as that may be... One problem I see with keeping prices high... you are limiting your sales base.

At higher prices, the only people who are really buying are high end collectors with money to burn, or other breeders. Other breeders means more snakes being produced, and if those snakes are more high dollar morphs, that means more animals being produced than there is a demand. As others have stated, when supply is higher than demand, prices much fall, or else you'll be sitting on your "product" for a long time before it leaves the shelf.

For your average pet hobbyist, high prices are not very attractive. The snake might be, but I know VERY VERY VERY FEW people who are willing to pay more than $1,000 for a snake, no matter how attractive. Most of the average pet hobbyists I know don't even want to pay more than a couple hundred at most. The cheaper the better. That's why these people are going to pet stores and buying $20-50 normals instead of going to breedings and shelling out hundreds or thousands for the prettier morphs, even though those same people think those other morphs are more attractive. Those people I know who are willing to pay the higher money either have cash to burn (literally) or are breeders and willing to pay that higher price.

So for people who are in it for a hobby, and marketing to the pet hobbyists and not other breeders, why shouldn't they lower their price to what it can sell for? That opens up the market to a much wider buyer field, which can actually be an advantage. When people realize they can get pretty snakes for $200 instead of $1,000+, they'll more seriously consider buying those snakes. When more people consider buying snakes, that means more sales, period.

That doesn't mean you can't sell something for a higher price tag, but it does mean you need something to back up that higher price tag. That may be quality, customer service, brand name, etc. But the possibility is there. And just because there are morphs at lower cost, doesn't mean everyone is going to go out and buy those lower dollar morphs. There are going to be a lot of people trying to buy cheap morphs and breed them to make money, but they won't survive. People do the same thing with dogs, rats, birds, cats, fish, etc. I've even seen people do it with dollar store purchases. It's everywhere. If those people know how to throw a good sales pitch, they'll survive. If they don't, people will get wise and move on. People who are in it for a REAL business, to produce quality animals that can sell for a higher price, they will forgo the cheaper prices for lower quality animals and pay the higher price for a better quality animal. But in order to sell at a higher price, that means you need to produce a higher quality, with the customer service, reputation, brand, etc to back it up.