Is "The Truth" owed an apology?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Once at attention seeking troll, always an attention seeking troll.

No drama, no neil.

---

Trolling is a very sufficient fishing method especially for big fish... ;)
Mkay just kidding here...

Going back to Topic...
I have Question to all of you who have any knowledge about it because I have null/nicht/zero.

Is that Problem only with desert females or desert combos females as well... Because if is.. and "people" know about it and still sell them for 5-15k.. They should be hang by jewels on closest phone pole or lantern...:rage:

With exception to a few scattered reports/pictures that I keep hearing about, I don't think there's been much in the way of proof of many desert females laying good eggs, whether they're single gene or not. I'm certain that anyone trying to breed deserts knows about the rumor, and I am equally as certain that none of those people have had good results because they would have immediately tried to discount the rumor with proof. I know I sure would be blanketing the web with pictures, especially if I had females to sale.

I decided months ago to hold back all of my females (if I get any) until this rumor is confirmed/denied, or until I can prove them out myself. It is really surprising that all of these breeders are selling females at all, knowing full well that they could potentially be ripping someone off. Are they disclosing this to customers before they purchase? Look at how many of you had no idea about this. I just saw some dude trying to sell his 1kg female for 4k. I suppose he could be one of the ignorant few, but I wouldn't take that bet and I think it's pretty seedy.

Robyn is the only one that I've seen step up to the plate concerning his girls. (kind of :P)

Quote:

---

You buy a Desert female from PE. If Desert females prove to be non breeders in the next two seasons, you can get your money back or credit towards something else.

That is a special deal, comes with a special price! $2500 for a female gets you the credit, $3000 for the female gets you a refund. We get the female back, naturally.

---

After reading that whole thread, I'm interested to see what the next two or 3 breeding seasons bring, after some of them drop the temperature quite a bit. Those videos from Ghana are also interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spitzu

they would have immediately tried to discount the rumor with proof

---

Only if they wanted to sell some desert females.

Sit on those females a while, release the good news, and their value in the eyes of the public takes a huge jump, particularly if they're not newborns.

I don't believe the above is true, but there is no guarantee that they would 'immediately try to discount the rumor'. Heck, if a project I'd invested time and money into came to fruition and much of the public was ridiculing it, I'd sit back for a good while with a smirk on my face.

I think it's safe to say that everyone is crossing their fingers that there are little to no issues with deserts, because having such a beautiful trait to work with would be good for everyone's collections.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

Only if they wanted to sell some desert females.

Sit on those females a while, release the good news, and their value in the eyes of the public takes a huge jump, particularly if they're not newborns.

---

That's assuming that EVERYone who has a desert project would have the exact same lack of values. If it was just ONE breeder who had control over who published what information...then maybe someone could think that. But there are many different people who have a vested interest in proving out the deserts. And MOST of them (if not all) are honest, upstanding individuals who wouldn't sit still for keeping that kind of secret just so a few greedy souls could earn some extra bucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

Heck, if a project I'd invested time and money into came to fruition and much of the public was ridiculing it, I'd sit back for a good while with a smirk on my face.

---

Really? And would you continue smirking if, at the same time, your personal integrity and business reputation are going down the tubes because everyone assumes you're intentionally shafting the community to earn a few extra dollars?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

Really? And would you continue smirking if, at the same time, your personal integrity and business reputation are going down the tubes because everyone assumes you're intentionally shafting the community to earn a few extra dollars?

---

If he wasn't selling desert females(the prior sentances talked about holding them back) then how would his reputation be hurt by sitting back and not selling and not telling anyone anything? All he'd be doing is building up his own collection of future breeders to cash in once the nay-sayers were proven wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

If he wasn't selling desert females(the prior sentances talked about holding them back) then how would his reputation be hurt by sitting back and not selling and not telling anyone anything? All he'd be doing is building up his own collection of future breeders to cash in once the nay-sayers were proven wrong.

---

If the public is demanding proof...and you HAVE the proof, but are sitting on it for as long as you can so that the price of your females will plummet and then go UP UP UP, people WILL notice. If your business name is getting dragged through the mud due to nothing but public speculation and you HAVE the proof to squash all that speculation....what would you do? Hold onto it in the hopes that your females will be worth more money for a short period of time, while at the same public perception of your business rep is getting worse and worse?

Maybe I misunderstood mainbutter and that's not what he meant by that statement. But I stand by my point regardless, even if it's not relevant to mainbutter himself. (Which was all hypothetical in the first place, since I don't think he ever implied that he actually had breeding deserts or any direct knowledge of their breeding quirks.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

If the public is demanding proof...and you HAVE the proof, but are sitting on it for as long as you can so that the price of your females will plummet and then go UP UP UP, people WILL notice. If your business name is getting dragged through the mud due to nothing but public speculation and you HAVE the proof to squash all that speculation....what would you do? Hold onto it in the hopes that your females will be worth more money for a short period of time, while at the same public perception of your business rep is getting worse and worse?

Maybe I misunderstood mainbutter and that's not what he meant by that statement. But I stand by my point regardless, even if it's not relevant to mainbutter himself. (Which was all hypothetical in the first place, since I don't think he ever implied that he actually had breeding deserts or any direct knowledge of their breeding quirks.)

---

Me? Oh heck no, me, I'd be crowing about MY female laying viable eggs and showing pictures and videos.

But then, hypothetically, with everyone already convinced that all desert females are sterile, how exactly would I be able to prove that my desert laid eggs that hatched? I could show pics galore and be accused of faking them, or that the eggs didn't hatch and I switched out the babies to fool everyone that the female was fertile. Or the female wasn't a desert at all, because it wasn't sterile. If the public is pre-convinced of something being true, there isn't much at all anyone could do. So to avoid the drama and fuss of being called a scammer/liar/deluded, I could see a breeder ignoring all the uproar and sticking to his/her own little breeding and selling without getting involved in it all.

It used to be EVERY caramel was hatched kinked in the public mind, but now there are obviously lines that are breeding without many kinks, since there's babies(and adults) that have no kinking.

I'm just saying that someone is under no obligation to divulge any information at all about their own private breeding projects, like it or not. Punishing someone for not rushing up to dump themselves into a huge drama-fest with no real way to fend off the idiots who will refuse to believe proof even if you had continuous video of the whole process.... that seems extreme.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I'm just saying that someone is under no obligation to divulge any information at all about their own private breeding projects, like it or not. Punishing someone for not rushing up to dump themselves into a huge drama-fest with no real way to fend off the idiots who will refuse to believe proof even if you had continuous video of the whole process.... that seems extreme.

---

I don't think we're disagreeing, we're just sort of discussing two different points that kinda sound the same.

I agree that no one should be (or could be) forced into divulging any particular information. I was just addressing the statement made about a hypothetical breeder smirking over the hidden information and taking advantage of it. I just wondered if any real businessman out there would consider the risk to his reputation worth such a fleeting price advantage?

At this point, the whole thing is pure speculation anyhow. We keep hearing about viable clutches, but so far no one has actually documented any (at least not that has been publicly shared). Would such documentation be subject to scrutiny? Certainly. But there are plenty of trusted sources (I'd consider you one of them, Theresa) who's word I would take as gold and their pictures would be worth a thousand words and then some. And hang the nut-job cynics who believe EVERYone in the world is a liar out to scam for every penny they can get. :salute:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

OK - all the OFF TOPIC fishing post have been moved to.....Off Topic, and you can continue your discussions there. I've even copied the link for you:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...apology-thread

Whether you like Big Gunns or not, there ARE some people genuinely interested in what's going on with deserts, particularly those seriously considering parting with a significant amount of money to get into the project.

You may not like how he started the thread, but I can guarantee you that there are people interested in the subject and the possible ensuing discussion without having to wade through the thread de-railing posts. At least have some modicum of respect for your fellow members who DO want to see this topic flesh out.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

This one?

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...97720&key=2011

---

Thanks Rabs....this is why they pay you the big bucks around here. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

Robin, thank you for taking care of the off topic chatter. This is, indeed, a very interesting and important topic. I'm glad Neil brought it up because for whatever reason, I was completely oblivious to this issue.

That being said...Neil...if you boast about having "the truth" about this matter, and then don't actually post anything but taunts, how is that any different than those others who are "in the know" just sitting on the information they have? If you have some sort of proof that is important to the community, then just share it. If you believe you know something, but can't prove it, then let us know so we can use that information to help weigh our own choices in the desert market. If you just want to bring a serious issue to the forefront of public attention...that's fine, too...so long as you're honest about what you're intentions are.

---

Did you forget who you're talking to JLC? There's always a method to Big Gunns madness. Maybe Big Gunns was fishing for some "Big Fish" on this thread. It seems they were smart enough not to take the bait. Never forget the intelligence level of the perfect one. He knows what he's doing. BG is sorry if some of you don't like it. Well....not that sorry. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Hedgehog

Thank you. I'm all for finding out about Female Deserts and if they can produce viable clutches, but the way this thread started STINKS.

---

If you don't like the way the person is giving you the information....you have no need to stay in his classroom. Just don't click the thread. You can thank Big Gunns later for solving your leeeetle petty problem.;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Once at attention seeking troll, always an attention seeking troll.

No drama, no neil.

---

We could be twins huh? :P

Are you asking for Big Gunns banning again? So sad buddy.....and BG thought we were turning over a new leaf in our friendship. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spitzu

With exception to a few scattered reports/pictures that I keep hearing about, I don't think there's been much in the way of proof of many desert females laying good eggs, whether they're single gene or not. I'm certain that anyone trying to breed deserts knows about the rumor, and I am equally as certain that none of those people have had good results because they would have immediately tried to discount the rumor with proof. I know I sure would be blanketing the web with pictures, especially if I had females to sale.

I decided months ago to hold back all of my females (if I get any) until this rumor is confirmed/denied, or until I can prove them out myself. It is really surprising that all of these breeders are selling females at all, knowing full well that they could potentially be ripping someone off. Are they disclosing this to customers before they purchase? Look at how many of you had no idea about this. I just saw some dude trying to sell his 1kg female for 4k. I suppose he could be one of the ignorant few, but I wouldn't take that bet and I think it's pretty seedy.

Robyn is the only one that I've seen step up to the plate concerning his girls. (kind of :P)

---

He gave that guarantee to ONE PERSON....not EVERYONE. If he didn't Big Gunns really wants to see that in full context.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

That's assuming that EVERYone who has a desert project would have the exact same lack of values. If it was just ONE breeder who had control over who published what information...then maybe someone could think that. But there are many different people who have a vested interest in proving out the deserts. And MOST of them (if not all) are honest, upstanding individuals who wouldn't sit still for keeping that kind of secret just so a few greedy souls could earn some extra bucks.



Really? And would you continue smirking if, at the same time, your personal integrity and business reputation are going down the tubes because everyone assumes you're intentionally shafting the community to earn a few extra dollars?

---

No need to "assume" anything here.

It's kinda funny. BG thinks "The Truth" said it best. We always like to "kill the messenger". Why is that? Then again.....BG guesses that since he's the "messenger".... it's very understandable. :D