Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I wouldn't want to see a pet I have constantly looking like it's head is vibrating. People don't know if it affects their quality of life. Try moving your head back and forth that much for a few minutes.
I know someone that had to force feed a spider it's whole life (so far) because it couldn't strike straight. What do you mean by endearing?

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That's why it's awesome that there are so many morphs out there to work with. YOU don't have to work with spiders if you don't want to or have one in your collection.

However, whether intentional or not, you're presenting yourself a wee bit arrogantly, as though you're trying to convince everyone to adopt your moral compass.

This is not a new debate or discussion. There are those who, like you, feel very strongly about the spider mutation and don't want to work with it. Then there are others who appreciate and have them in their collection that don't see the classic signs of stress with their animals that are our only barometer to judge whether it bothers the animal or not.

A stressed animal won't feed, a stressed animal will have a suppressed immune system and become more likely to come down with a RI or other illness than an un-stressed animal, a stressed animal won't breed. Because healthy spiders are eating and breeding in hundreds of keeper's care, one can draw the conclusion that this condition does not bother the animal.

You are able to cite one example where the wobble/spin was so severe that your friend had to force/assist feed it it's entire life. I can cite hundreds of examples of thriving animals, just here on the forums.

It's fine that you have decided it's not something you are willing to work with. I have decided that kinking in caramels is not something that "I" am willing to work with. But I don't think it's my place to try to convince others to do the same. I prefer instead to just focus on my own collection and not worry about what Tom, Dick and Harry are doing.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's why it's awesome that there are so many morphs out there to work with. YOU don't have to work with spiders if you don't want to or have one in your collection.

However, whether intentional or not, you're presenting yourself a wee bit arrogantly, as though you're trying to convince everyone to adopt your moral compass.

A stressed animal won't feed, a stressed animal will have a suppressed immune system and become more likely to come down with a RI or other illness than an un-stressed animal, a stressed animal won't breed. Because healthy spiders are eating and breeding in hundreds of keeper's care, one can draw the conclusion that this condition does not bother the animal.
I didn't think they were stressed, it's just like any other morph but they sometimes have problems striking.
You are able to cite one example where the wobble/spin was so severe that your friend had to force/assist feed it it's entire life. I can cite hundreds of examples of thriving animals, just here on the forums.
The same breeder said that if you look at any spider at 3-4 in the morning, it will be upside down. The other morphs won't.
It's fine that you have decided it's not something you are willing to work with. I have decided that kinking in caramels is not something that "I" am willing to work with. But I don't think it's my place to try to convince others to do the same. I prefer instead to just focus on my own collection and not worry about what Tom, Dick and Harry are doing.

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Have you decided not to breed spiders, or caramel albinos? I think if people actually really like spiders for some reason, more than other morphs, it would be better at least than buying it to breed just for the expensive ones to sell.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

Have you decided not to breed spiders, or caramel albinos? I think if people actually really like spiders for some reason, more than other morphs, it would be better at least than buying it to breed just for the expensive ones to sell.

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I don't know who this same breeder is, but my three spiders are not upside down in the middle of the night. I don't sleep well, I get up in the middle of the night and check my snakes.

I have decided not to breed caramel albinos for my own personal reasons, but I won't judge other who decide they want to work with them. I will be breeding spiders into some crosses.

All of my breedings are carefully planned to produce animals for my number one customer - ME. If I want to create a particular cross, and I need a spider to do so, then I will breed my spiders as I work towards that goal.

Regarding stress. OK, I concede that you didn't say stressed, you said it affected their quality of life. How do you tangibly measure their quality of life? Other than a little wobble when excited, my three eat (aggressively, I might add), breed, grow, have not ever had a RI or other illness (knock wood). They are also the three most inquisitive of all my collection.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't know who this same breeder is
http://coldblooded-novelties.com/ Frank told me that at the last expo when I was talking to him about the spiders having problems.

All of my breedings are carefully planned to produce animals for my number one customer - ME. If I want to create a particular cross, and I need a spider to do so, then I will breed my spiders as I work towards that goal.
That's what I meant. If someone is breeding them just to sell the expensive babies, it would be worse than breeding them because they like the morph. I just don't think that there are many people who couldn't do without spiders.

Regarding stress. OK, I concede that you didn't say stressed, you said it affected their quality of life. How do you tangibly measure their quality of life? I think a good way is to see if a wild one would do it. If a wild one wouldn't do it, it is not necessary or helpful to the snake in any way. I think completely mutating their colors and patterns is enough. Doing as much as to mutate their personality or behaviors is very different. Changing pigment cells is different than affecting the way their brains function.

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I think a good way is to see if a wild one would do it. If a wild one wouldn't do it, it is not necessary or helpful to the snake in any way.

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The first and only one to be found and brought in from Africa did it, and survived in the wild before he was found and imported.

Also spiders are direct descendants of this original spider, and one of the most outcrossed mutations.

NO ONE bred FOR the wobble or personality - it has been and always will be - part of the mutation.

So in answer to your question, a wild spider did in fact thrive in Africa with this condition.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I wouldn't want to see a pet I have constantly looking like it's head is vibrating.

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This is not what spiders do at all. Sometimes it happens, but it is not a constant vibration in the head. Sometimes it seems to be an inner ear issue, balance issue, tremors, corkscrewing, or any number of odd movements. More often than not, it is simply a slight "head tilt" when the "wobble" is exhibited.

As for "quality of life".. I'm of the opinion that if a snake eats, lives, and breeds, it is certainly thriving. I wouldn't tell a human with a genetic disorder that they shouldn't have children, that's up to them. I'm certainly not going to say it is 'wrong' for someone to breed for the spider trait in ball pythons either. Frankly I think that these animals should have even more of a reason to get some sex than your typical pet BP.

That said:

I have no interest in the spider trait. You guys who like it can keep it to yourselves. I do personally find the wobble to be just as distasteful as, say, poor coloration.. but no more so.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The first and only one to be found and brought in from Africa did it, and survived in the wild before he was found and imported.

Also spiders are direct descendants of this original spider, and one of the most outcrossed mutations.

NO ONE bred FOR the wobble or personality - it has been and always will be - part of the mutation.

So in answer to your question, a wild spider did in fact thrive in Africa with this condition.

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How old was that imported spider? If it's so common to have a wild mutation 'thriving', why don't they have them from the wild more often? In certain areas of florida people sometimes find an albino rattlesnake. There aren't more than one, and they probably won't ever find more than that. The wild one from Africa might not have had the neurological problems as much as some of the captive bred ones do. And if it did, why aren't imported morphs very common?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

This is not what spiders do at all. Sometimes it happens, but it is not a constant vibration in the head. Sometimes it seems to be an inner ear issue, balance issue, tremors, corkscrewing, or any number of odd movements. More often than not, it is simply a slight "head tilt" when the "wobble" is exhibited.
I just saw it at the last reptile show I was at. It was in a clear display box. For the 15 minutes I was talking to that vendor, the spider constantly vibrated its head. I don't care what you call it. Moving like that is NOT natural. Finding a wild mutation isn't natural. I can find corn snakes outside. You can find some slightly different phases, like Miami phase, but never albino, anery, snow, motley, lavender, candycane, pewter, or any other morphs.
As for "quality of life".. I'm of the opinion that if a snake eats, lives, and breeds, it is certainly thriving. I wouldn't tell a human with a genetic disorder that they shouldn't have children, that's up to them. I'm certainly not going to say it is 'wrong' for someone to breed for the spider trait in ball pythons either. Frankly I think that these animals should have even more of a reason to get some sex than your typical pet BP.
You changed these two words. There is a difference. I don't think people should have kids if they know they will pass on the problem. They obviously wouldn't care about their kids, since they knew they would have the problem. It's similar to people without enough money, living in a country in poverty, having 10 kids with half of them still living, but somehow they don't understand what they are putting their kids through. It's repeating a cycle. The same thing with a genetic disorder.
It's partly wrong for them to breed spiders. I think that if someone doesn't care about the animals having ANY problems, they shouldn't be breeding them.
That said:

I have no interest in the spider trait. You guys who like it can keep it to yourselves. I do personally find the wobble to be just as distasteful as, say, poor coloration.. but no more so.
The animals don't care what color they are, as much as how they have to live with that problem. People on here call it a problem if animals have problems, why would someone breed them? Aren't there enough morphs to pick from without problems?

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Genetics Breeder- Hey your arguments are all opinion based, not to mention hijacking this thread that has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about....soooo....stop please. Make your own thread about bashing spiders and people who breed them if you have an itch to argue with people. Seriously though...

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

Genetics Breeder- Hey your arguments are all opinion based, not to mention hijacking this thread that has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about....soooo....stop please. Make your own thread about bashing spiders and people who breed them if you have an itch to argue with people. Seriously though...

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What did I say that was opinion based? The first person was talking about spiders vibrating their heads, and I was writing about that. I was also answering when other people quoted what I wrote, and seeing that your first listed snake in your signature is a bumblebee, it seems like you're trying to argue about owning them since I said that I don't like animals with problems. I'm not 'bashing' anyone or anything, and I don't have 'an itch to argue'. I was making a point.

All of your arguments are opinion based - your opinion of their quality of life, your opinion that they should not be bred....etc.

Why can't you just agree that YOU will not work with spiders, and let others decide for themselves if the wobble is something they are willing to work with or not? It appears that your "proving a point" isn't so much about "proving a point" as it is trying to convince people that your opinion is the only opinion and therefore, no one should choose to work with spiders.

You even did so on another thread where the person was deciding between a spider and a pinstripe, arguing that the pinstripe didn't wobble, so it was the obvious choice.