Put it down already

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

So, my question to the those who cull: you brought an animal into the world. Where do you draw the line on it's life? You can't simply stand behind nature and say they wouldn't have survived otherwise. Very few carmels or super cinnys are born in the wild. WE create these animals... and, as long as they're willing to give it a fighting chance, I feel we have a responsibility in attempting to give them the care they deserve.

I'll step down from the soapbox now :oops:

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I guess that depends on the animal and what effect the deformity had on it's "quality of life" apart from human interaction. Every instance is going to be different.

You say your snake has "trouble getting around" what exactly does this mean?

Have you considered that maybe the reason it chooses not to move around much is because it experiences pain when it does?

You say it is sweet and one of the nicest snake you have? what behaviors / and or / characteristics in your opinion make it "sweet and nice?"

Disclaimer... this is not a personal attack... just a reply to what you posted.

I believe it is a personal call that each and every one of us need to learn how to make (it’s not easy).

Some people are trying too hard and do not realize that prolonging life is not always the best nor the most human option for the animal.

Culling does not (always) mean being heartless and cruel in some cases it means being human and having mercy still doesn't make it easy to do but it is one side of the hobby that anyone that breeds will have to face sooner or later.

When you determine that an animal of any kind should be put down, you are making a choice that should never be made lightly. It gives me great encouragement that while everyone for the most part agree on the need to euthanize, we all seem to approach it with the same extreem caution it deserves. Be sure and be careful any time you determine to end a life. Once it's gone, it's gone.

Mike I agree with you!

Do I dare throw another log on the fire, meh....can of worms?

What about breeding a trait which is known to exhibit neuro problems?

Example being Spiders.

I breed both Balls and Carpets, but I do not own any Spiders or Jags (Carpets) for this reason.

I would have a hard time breeding a trait (spider) that I know tends to have neurological problems affecting the animal's motorskills. Now you could add, this is where natural selection takes place and those unable feed will be put down. I choose not to take that chance. Because of this, I don't own any Spiders or Jags. Now I know there are MANY spiders out there that exhibit no wobble, or little wobble but eat just fine. That is great! It is the few spiders that do hatch out with signs of neuro problems that keep me from breeding this particular morph.

Disclaimer. I am NOT against other people breeding spiders. I don't want this post to be viewed as a "you are a bad person because you breed spiders" thread. No way am I saying this. I think spiders are a great looking morph. I love looking at all the crosses that pop up every year. I am just a but turned away from them due to the fact that SOME tend to exhibit neuro problems that may affect the snake's quality of life. I know there are A LOT of people out there with spiders that are perfectly fine. Cool. Just knowing that this is a possibility; I, myself would just feel responsible if I bred spiders, and hatched out an animal that showed signs of severe neuro damage that had to be put down.

Now I know there are a going to be a lot of people who disagree. Many of whom who own perfectly fine spiders. I just thought I would throw this out there as I am sure I am one of the few who feel this way.

That's all. :)

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

Mike I agree with you!

Do I dare throw another log on the fire, meh....can of worms?

What about breeding a trait which is known to exhibit neuro problems?

Example being Spiders.

I breed both Balls and Carpets, but I do not own any Spiders or Jags (Carpets) for this reason.

I would have a hard time breeding a trait (spider) that I know tends to have neurological problems affecting the animal's motorskills. Now you could add, this is where natural selection takes place and those unable feed will be put down. I choose not to take that chance. Because of this, I don't own any Spiders or Jags. Now I know there are MANY spiders out there that exhibit no wobble, or little wobble but eat just fine. That is great! It is the few spiders that do hatch out with signs of neuro problems that keep me from breeding this particular morph.

Disclaimer. I am NOT against other people breeding spiders. I don't want this post to be viewed as a "you are a bad person because you breed spiders" thread. No way am I saying this. I think spiders are a great looking morph. I love looking at all the crosses that pop up every year. I am just a but turned away from them due to the fact that SOME tend to exhibit neuro problems that may affect the snake's quality of life. I know there are A LOT of people out there with spiders that are perfectly fine. Cool. Just knowing that this is a possibility; I, myself would just feel responsible if I bred spiders, and hatched out an animal that showed signs of severe neuro damage that had to be put down.

Now I know there are a going to be a lot of people who disagree. Many of whom who own perfectly fine spiders. I just thought I would throw this out there as I am sure I am one of the few who feel this way.

That's all. :)

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Some good thoughts. Although I am not sure that wobbling/spinning Spiders have a reduced quality of life. All I have seen eat/grow/defecate and appear to have the ability to live a normal life. My male Spider is slightly tweaked, but far from the worst I have seen. His offspring so far are not showing signs of major issues. My Albino male is much worse. For those that are uninformed, no, it's not just limited to Spiders. I have seen normals that are absolute train wrecks. You never know when it's going to pop up.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Some good thoughts. Although I am not sure that wobbling/spinning Spiders have a reduced quality of life. All I have seen eat/grow/defecate and appear to have the ability to live a normal life. My male Spider is slightly tweaked, but far from the worst I have seen. His offspring so far are not showing signs of major issues. My Albino male is much worse. For those that are uninformed, no, it's not just limited to Spiders. I have seen normals that are absolute train wrecks. You never know when it's going to pop up.

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True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

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Originally Posted by mason

True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

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I would have to question what criteria determines which flaws we accept and which we don't. Is a flaw that doesn't affect how an animal lives really a problem? I guess for some it is. What would be an unacceptable trait in a dog to an AKC breeder may not be a problem for Joe Blow who just wants a dog for a companion.

What other flaws have been accepted for the sake of beauty?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I would have to question what criteria determines which flaws we accept and which we don't. Is a flaw that doesn't affect how an animal lives really a problem? I guess for some it is. What would be an unacceptable trait in a dog to an AKC breeder may not be a problem for Joe Blow who just wants a dog for a companion.

What other flaws have been accepted for the sake of beauty?

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You know Joe Blow too!?!? He is my neighbor!









Seriously... :)

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

You know Joe Blow too!?!? He is my neighbor!









Seriously... :)

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Of course! I didn't know we lived so close to each other.