Big snakes, small enclosures.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Snakes need to eat, thermoregulate and breed. They don't run marathons. They don't live in closets, though many do prefer tight enclosed spaces for long durations, most do not gather socially and none of the species discussed here do at all.

Anthropomorphism.

Bigger is better for us and may induce what appears to be reptilian exercise or exploration but how do we know it's not just a snake looking for a comfy spot to curl up and wait for it's next meal and not the assumed snake out for a slither to visit friends?

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Sometimes it may be harsh, but the way you analyze things crack me up. I know your not trying to be funny, but i get a kick out of it. You are definately unique. lol. It's great!

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Originally Posted by zackw419

IMO

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There's the rub.

Who's IMO is more valid? Is anyone's? If so, why? From there rules, guidleines, standards, all evolve.

Yes, snakes like to curl up in tight spaces. Sometimes they like to go hunt. Sometimes they like to swim. Sometimes they like to do other things.

We should be offering them the ability to choose.

Chris

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Originally Posted by mumps

Yes, snakes like to curl up in tight spaces. Sometimes they like to go hunt. Sometimes they like to swim. Sometimes they like to do other things.

We should be offering them the ability to choose.

Chris

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Those of us who are trying to simulate a natural environment, yes.

Those who are keeping and breeding but not trying to recreate the great outdoors indoors, no.

Standards and obligations. There are none of one and lack of definition for the other.

It's words like SHOULD, and MUST, ONLY and HAVE TO; they just irritate me.

They imply that things must be a certain way when in fact the do not have to be. Not everyone can see an implication as just that, something implied. They are unable to differentiate it from law, which is also rather arbitrary when you come right down to it, and a recommended but not mandatory, way of accomplishing a goal.

Like I have implied and am now stating, do it if you feel like it but don't assume your snake needs/wants/or appreciates what you have done.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

JP, I have been there too in the big snake room, and there were no Monitors in racks, and the very few giants he has had we're being properly caged and lovingly cared for.

Have these animals grown? Heck yea they have, such the need for larger caging.

Sounds like you are opening your mouth and spewing a load.... :rolleyes:

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I have all the respect in the world for Brian, but I don't see the need to put a 6' Nile monitor in a 5'6" tub for feeding purposes. Especially when it is recommended that monitors have a cage twice their length. I wouldn't want to move a possibly still hungry 6' Nile that could rip your finger off, I don't even like messing with Niles half that size. Or upset the monitors stomach and have it regurgitate.
About 4:30 in on this video= YouTube - SnakeBytesTV- Our diggs and a huge Monitor lizard feeding!!!

I don't suppose you saw where that particular monitor was kept as a 'non feeding' cage?

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

I have all the respect in the world for Brian, but I don't see the need to put a 6' Nile monitor in a 5'6" tub for feeding purposes. Especially when it is recommended that monitors have a cage twice their length.
About 4:30 in on this video= YouTube - SnakeBytesTV- Our diggs and a huge Monitor lizard feeding!!!

I don't suppose you saw where that particular monitor was kept as a 'non feeding' cage?

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Have you ever watched a monitor eviscerate its food and then proceed to beat said food all over the cage to insure that said food was in fact completely dead and not only dead but tenderized to the point of possibly being mistaken for soup?

If you have then you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.

If you haven't, now you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.

In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):

YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3

if it was for easy cleaning I dont understand why he would of put down substrate. Had he not done that cleaning would of been even easier

Aaron here, your local Expert on Everything that is nothing.

I personally believe a lot of people are preaching their opinions as fact, or they are arguing about nothing.

If you disagree with the way he takes care of his animals then don't support him. At the end of the day all this moaning and groaning is about 10-20KB of data in a Database that has no physical presence. In short, it means nothing.

Hi,

I always wondered that about giants.

How much substrate do they need to absorb enough of the waste products that it no longer means they are sitting in their own effluent?

I know it only soaks it up rather than them sitting in liquid but is there a bare minimum you would need to use to avoid problems to the animal in the times between pooping or peeing it and the owner noticing and cleaning it out?

I know with my ball pythons a couple of sheets of newspaper seems to be enough that they always have a dry spot if it's an overnight poop frenzy but with a huuge burm or retic wouldn't that just disintegrate and float away?


dr del

In my racks I lay two sheets of newspaper down. In the visions I have to use to whole sections of newspaper for each cage. But I usually check on my snakes every morning and everynight and if I see someone with a dirty cage I go ahead and clean it up because I think its easier to clean when its fresh and wet then after it dries and you have to get in the cage and scrap it out and everything. So I try my best to clean it as soon as they go or as soon as I catch it but that doesnt always work they like to go while im at work. lol

I've read through this thread, and it's getting a little old...

The thing is, I think most of us have agreed the tubs are a little bit too small for the snakes... however, how long has he had these giants for? Why did he not get a larger cage for them, well, a decade ago? Why not sooner, if he knows the cages are too small?

And those of you saying we're "backstabbing" Brian just don't know what you're talking about.

You'd put substrate down in a feeding tub for a monitor. If you've ever fed one, then you'd understand why. The mess would be everywhere, and smearing on the lizard itself majorly without the substrate to help "contain" it.
I've never ever fed a monitor in a bare plastic tub after the first debacle. I always put some shavings in it when I used a seperate container. Now I feed in the enclosure. Some advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure, and I won't say either way is wrong. Whatever works for that keeper and lizard(s).
The giants in tubs? I think they are probably fine, although I'd probably want a bit larger ones. But I don't have Brian's many years of experaince. The giants do grow, and I'm sure that at some point he turned around and went "Oh poops, we have to get bigger bins for some of these guys". Maybe he's got a lot in larger bins, or in different caging. Maybe the ones you see in the video are the last giants in smaller bins. You'd need to GO SEE IN PERSON.
I've known a few folks with retics. And none of them seemed all that much more active, comparitively speaking. Yeah, maybe a little, but nothing that would make me think they needed a paddock or a track to roam around on.
And yep, I've seen my racks at 2am in the dark, and nope, most of the balls were hanging out like always. I've put them into bigger bins, and they weren't content-acting, and roamed pushing the edges, refused to eat, and such. Back into smaller standard bins, and they settled to hanging out in a corner, eating every week, and not striking when the bin is opened, etc.
So IMHO, my ball pythons are content to be in the bins. The cornsnake wants to roam the world however. Actually, I think the cornsnake wants to RULE the world, but is distracted by every meal. She's got a etch-a-sketch memory for her world domination plans, thank goodness.

AND... calling people butt-kissers just because they don't agree with you shows me you got nothing to argue with. No one's opinion is better than anyone else's in this case.

Actually ive always just feed monitor and snakes in there cages. I dont see a reason to move them to a feeding tub.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...ferent0021.gif

I should keep my mouth shut but I have to ask all of you a question. If you have ever had a snake excape, where do they go? Do they hang out in the middle of the room or do you see them stretching out on the bed?? I don't know about you but I have had a few Iexcapes and 80.5% of the time they are in the tightest places they can fit into. The only time I had an exception to this was when our taiwan got out and he was high up on the rack trying to get into the rat cage.

If you doubt this let your snake out (in a secured area). put a tight hide on one side and a "comfortable long bed" in the other, where is your snake going to go? I HONESTLY don't know what a big snake will do, but I DO know every ball I have had chooses the tight corner even over a larger space that is warmer.

LOL ok you can bash me. I agree my limited experence is showing.

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Originally Posted by akaangela

I should keep my mouth shut but I have to ask all of you a question. If you have ever had a snake excape, where do they go? Do they hang out in the middle of the room or do you see them stretching out on the bed?? I don't know about you but I have had a few Iexcapes and 80.5% of the time they are in the tightest places they can fit into. The only time I had an exception to this was when our taiwan got out and he was high up on the rack trying to get into the rat cage.

If you doubt this let your snake out (in a secured area). put a tight hide on one side and a "comfortable long bed" in the other, where is your snake going to go? I HONESTLY don't know what a big snake will do, but I DO know every ball I have had chooses the tight corner even over a larger space that is warmer.

LOL ok you can bash me. I agree my limited experence is showing.

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You said it yourself... giants are not ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

There's the rub.

Who's IMO is more valid? Is anyone's? If so, why? From there rules, guidleines, standards, all evolve.

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It seems like your being a bit too abstract.

All the studies that have been done (those studies being interpreted into caresheets, lectures, books, etc.) set a foundation for how snakes should be taken care of in captivity. Whether or not its right that's what most snake owners seem go off of. I think your making it more difficult than it actually is.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Have you ever watched a monitor eviscerate its food and then proceed to beat said food all over the cage to insure that said food was in fact completely dead and not only dead but tenderized to the point of possibly being mistaken for soup?

If you have then you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.

If you haven't, now you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.

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Yes I have seen numerous monitors eat. And I don't think what you're talking about is an acceptable reason. He seems to keep his animals very clean. But would move it into another cage to feed? Then why wouldn't he take it for walks so it doesn't crap in its cage as well.

And that still does not justify why you would move a 6' Nile into a 5 1/2' cage for feeding. That would be like moving a 16' retic into a 3' x 2' cage for feeding. A 6' Nile is dangerous enough. A hungry 6' Nile that you have to move is just asking for trouble.

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Originally Posted by Enser54

In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):

YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3

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After listening it sounds like he says "we use to have an 8' cage but we trashed it". So basically that monitor was being housed in there for a period of time while they were building a new cage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Good for building a bigger cage for it. Not the greatest choice for a temporary cage though.

Thanks for clearing up one of my questions though.

I could care less about whatever match anyone has on who's e-pene is bigger than whos. I had just finished watching the videos...

The AfRock being too big for its enclosure? No. It's just right. It might outgrow it within the next few months, or several months... but its not too small at the moment. AfRocks are one of the largest opportunists among the giant pythons, and rely highly on the ambush technique for sustenance. The only time they're widely active in their natural range is during breeding season, and shortly before.

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

I have all the respect in the world for Brian, but I don't see the need to put a 6' Nile monitor in a 5'6" tub for feeding purposes. Especially when it is recommended that monitors have a cage twice their length. I wouldn't want to move a possibly still hungry 6' Nile that could rip your finger off, I don't even like messing with Niles half that size. Or upset the monitors stomach and have it regurgitate.

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Agreed, whole-heartedly. Moving any large reptile into another enclosure for feeding is pure ignorance, no matter how skilled or knowledgeable you are. Feeding response, possible damage to the animals internal organs, possible damage or death from said effects to both keeper and kept just play too high. It's like the old method people used to feed Burms...move them to your tub, thump the rat on the head, toss in said rat, and then move animal still in feeding mode back to enclosure. It's simply asking for trouble, or a nice hospital visit. Not only can monitors do a serious amount of damage with their claws, but their teeth and jaws are made for tearing, breaking, and crushing, vs a simple grasp and hold.

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Agreed, whole-heartedly. Moving any large reptile into another enclosure for feeding is pure ignorance, no matter how skilled or knowledgeable you are. Feeding response, possible damage to the animals internal organs, possible damage or death from said effects to both keeper and kept just play too high. It's like the old method people used to feed Burms...move them to your tub, thump the rat on the head, toss in said rat, and then move animal still in feeding mode back to enclosure. It's simply asking for trouble, or a nice hospital visit. Not only can monitors do a serious amount of damage with their claws, but their teeth and jaws are made for tearing, breaking, and crushing, vs a simple grasp and hold.

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The difference between being there and me doing it at my house is that they can have 3 or 4 people moving the animal. I'm sure they could manage to carry a 6' monitor without incident. I'm no expert, i'm just sayin.

There's a LOT of very experianced keepers out there who DO advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure. Just because YOU don't(and I don't either) doesn't make it wrong. It makes it "not your opinion".

Your way is no more right, just because you state it a few times. If he gets good results by feeding his monitors in a seperate container, or by feeding his giants in a seperate container, that it works for him(and for all the other respected keepers who do so). He's not telling you that YOU have to feed in another container, so why do you feel you can say he CAN'T?

I've done both, and I can see the merit in both.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

There's a LOT of very experianced keepers out there who DO advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure. Just because YOU don't(and I don't either) doesn't make it wrong. It makes it "not your opinion".

Your way is no more right, just because you state it a few times. If he gets good results by feeding his monitors in a seperate container, or by feeding his giants in a seperate container, that it works for him(and for all the other respected keepers who do so). He's not telling you that YOU have to feed in another container, so why do you feel you can say he CAN'T?

I've done both, and I can see the merit in both.

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I feed some animals in the enclosure, and others out. I take my tegus out because the male is really old and the female would just rob the food out of his mouth.
I feed my yellow anaconda out because I like the interaction, and she knows when there's no more food coming.
I feed my ornate monitor in because I'm still in the taming process and he DOES NOT like being picked up yet.

Either method can work, it's up to the individual keeper and being able to read one's animals.

Chris

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

There's a LOT of very experianced keepers out there who DO advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure. Just because YOU don't(and I don't either) doesn't make it wrong. It makes it "not your opinion".

Your way is no more right, just because you state it a few times. If he gets good results by feeding his monitors in a seperate container, or by feeding his giants in a seperate container, that it works for him(and for all the other respected keepers who do so). He's not telling you that YOU have to feed in another container, so why do you feel you can say he CAN'T?

I've done both, and I can see the merit in both.

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Of all the care sheets and posts I have seen from various forums while I use to read up on monitors, I can honestly say I have never seen one single person suggest moving a dangerous 6' Nile to a different enclosure for feeding.

May I ask who these experienced keepers are?

I think he was referring to snake keepers. But I am with you. You could go to ANY varanid forum out there and any experienced keepers on there that have had monitors will tell you its crazy to move one. Monitors stress alot easier then snakes do. We kept a salvator here about 2 years ago and if you walked by its cage it would regurge its food. You wouldnt have to touch it or look at it or anything just your presence stressed it out.

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

Of all the care sheets and posts I have seen from various forums while I use to read up on monitors, I can honestly say I have never seen one single person suggest moving a dangerous 6' Nile to a different enclosure for feeding.

May I ask who these experienced keepers are?

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BHB

But what the hell do they know. :rolleyes:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...dead-horse.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nate

BHB

But what the hell do they know. :rolleyes:

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When did he state this? I would like to know.

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

Of all the care sheets and posts I have seen from various forums while I use to read up on monitors, I can honestly say I have never seen one single person suggest moving a dangerous 6' Nile to a different enclosure for feeding.

May I ask who these experienced keepers are?

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How many people have written care sheets who have actual experience with a "dangerous" 6' nile?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How many people have written care sheets who have actual experience with a "dangerous" 6' nile?

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Off the top of my head I can think of two that are pretty good. Seen a couple that weren't so great. And some that look like a two year old was fooling around. But even so, none EVER mentioned moving to a separate enclosure for feeding.

Any need to put quotes around dangerous? You don't think they are?

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

When did he state this? I would like to know.

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He doesn't have to say it...noone does, and noone will suggest you do it. It's choice.

I'm not going to SUGGEST that someone go jump off a bridge because they'll come back to me and say "you owe me thousands of dollars in medical bills for suggesting I do such a thing! how dare you!"

If I want to jump off a bridge, then stay outa my business. I know it's risky and stupid, but what I do to me is on me.

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

Off the top of my head I can think of two that are pretty good. Seen a couple that weren't so great. And some that look like a two year old was fooling around. But even so, none EVER mentioned moving to a separate enclosure for feeding.

Any need to put quotes around dangerous? You don't think they are?

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So....2 that are "pretty" good. Not really good, not great, just pretty good which implies that they aren't as good as they could or should be.

I do not think a 6 foot nile is dangerous to someone who knows monitors.

Of course, we may have slightly differing opinions on what dangerous actually means.

You seem pretty set on what you've learned is not only the only way but anyone else is just wrong.

Have fun with that.

Well I think he would have to state it. After seeing the water bowl in the cage I wondered if that cage was really for feeding purposes or not. Well as I found out by the other members video, it was not just for feeding purposes but a temporary home.

I wonder the same with the Savannah monitor(s) it showed in the same episode. Whether those tubs are used strictly for feeding or if they are used as their permanent/temporary homes. Now I'm not going to try to assume that out of my respect for Brian, but I can't help but think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So....2 that are "pretty" good. Not really good, not great, just pretty good which implies that they aren't as good as they could or should be.

I do not think a 6 foot nile is dangerous to someone who knows monitors.

Of course, we may have slightly differing opinions on what dangerous actually means.

You seem pretty set on what you've learned is not only the only way but anyone else is just wrong.

Have fun with that.

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Well I would like to know your opinion on the word dangerous. Being able to rip a finger off isn't dangerous at all? When is an animal deemed "dangerous" to you?

Oh no, I am perfectly capable of admitting when I am wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

Well I would like to know your opinion on the word dangerous. Being able to rip a finger off isn't dangerous at all? When is an animal deemed "dangerous" to you?

Oh no, I am perfectly capable of admitting when I am wrong. :)

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"Being able to" and actually doing are two very different things.

I had a Nile I raised from a hatchling to a 16 year old calm, trusting animal. I didn't move it to another enclosure for feeding, but I could open the door, let it roam the basement and feed it by hand. Sure, he was "able to" remove a finger if he wanted to, but he never did.

Chris

Aj does have a point. I mean he has proof on the videos. Brian has said in one it was a feeding enclosure but in another a temporary home so which is it? How long does it take to construct a 10 foot cage? That nile can barely raise its head in that tub. That my friend is just WRONG. I would let the lizard free roam before I stuffed it in a tub like that. Monitors are not snakes they are VERY active and should never be housed in something like that I dont care if its temporary or not. You could take 30 minutes out of your day and throw some wood together for an 8 foot "temporary enclsosure" where the lizard can at least raise its head up. Niles need a basking area of 120 degrees how is that possible in a commerical rack system? There is no commerical rack system or commerical cage anywhere that is fit for a full grown water,nile, blackthroat, croc any of them. You can easily go to a monitor forum and see some people that truely care about there monitors and see how much space they provide to them. I have a buddy on another forum that has turned his basement into 3 HUGE enclosures. Filled with dirt any everything his niles can swim, bask, and dig just like they were meant to do. They also dont have a problem rasing there heads up

I know the guy you're talking about. And his enclosures are PERFECT.

Chris

I know what let's do, let's go burn down Brians business. Maybe we could crucify him too, that would be cool huh? I mean, it's not like the guy has what, FOUR or FIVE thousand snakes to take care of. It's not like he's got any employees to oversee. He could surely take time to go get some 2 X 4s and plywood to build a box big enough to let that nile raise its head, even if it wasnt' heated properly and didn't have a pool, or a screen top, or any lighting, but hey, he could lift his head and that's what's important.

Maybe we could beat up his helpers for letting that monitor be put in that tub to begin with. Yeah, it was probably them what done it anyway, don't you think? And we, LOL, shouldn't let THEM get away with that. It's just not right.

So what if a state of the art enclosure with a pool and a 130 degree basking spot and substrate deep enough to burrow in and space enough for a small herd of Niles to live in is being built while that poor poor lizard suffers in agony, not able to lift his head like that. Who cares? The new cage should have been built FIRST. How dare Brian think only of himself and what's easiest for him.

We should probably pelt him most thoroughly with rotted fruit before we crucify him. I mean, certain things should just be kept secret. You just don't go showing things that aren't perfect, it's just not cool. Why, if he had only given some thought to the relative intelligence of some folks I bet he never would have been honest enough to show a temporary set up for a lizard that HAD OUTGROWN (read as had since it WAS small enough for the previous enclosure) it's old home. What a buffoon Brian is.

In fact, we should probably boycott BHB entirely. I mean, that is the only way to truly show the disdain and contempt I've seen expressed here. Yup, that's what should be done. Rotten fruit, crucifixion, boycott. That'll show him.

Oh wait, we could burn his place down too. I'll bring marshmallows and some of you bring graham crackers and chocolate. We can make sommores, won't that be fun. We can eat them by the light of the fire while we let Brian know what he did was just too wrong to tolerate.

How DARE he make improvements without having a better plan than just doing them.

Why, I'm just flabbergasted.

Now, where is that lighter fluid.....

this is awesome Its been a while since Ive seen someone get crucified. Lets make some smores to!!!!

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Originally Posted by mumps

"Being able to" and actually doing are two very different things.

I had a Nile I raised from a hatchling to a 16 year old calm, trusting animal. I didn't move it to another enclosure for feeding, but I could open the door, let it roam the basement and feed it by hand. Sure, he was "able to" remove a finger if he wanted to, but he never did.

Chris

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True enough. But when it comes down to it, they're wild animals. With their keen sense of smell they could pick up a rodent from anywhere and just snap. A buddy of mine has a 5' blue Nile, F'N gorgeous BTW, and it went into a feeding frenzy as soon as he walked in with rodents.

I saw a blue nile at the last reptile show here and I have to agree they are gorgeous

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I know what let's do, let's go burn down Brians business. Maybe we could crucify him too, that would be cool huh? I mean, it's not like the guy has what, FOUR or FIVE thousand snakes to take care of. It's not like he's got any employees to oversee. He could surely take time to go get some 2 X 4s and plywood to build a box big enough to let that nile raise its head, even if it wasnt' heated properly and didn't have a pool, or a screen top, or any lighting, but hey, he could lift his head and that's what's important.

Maybe we could beat up his helpers for letting that monitor be put in that tub to begin with. Yeah, it was probably them what done it anyway, don't you think? And we, LOL, shouldn't let THEM get away with that. It's just not right.

So what if a state of the art enclosure with a pool and a 130 degree basking spot and substrate deep enough to burrow in and space enough for a small herd of Niles to live in is being built while that poor poor lizard suffers in agony, not able to lift his head like that. Who cares? The new cage should have been built FIRST. How dare Brian think only of himself and what's easiest for him.

We should probably pelt him most thoroughly with rotted fruit before we crucify him. I mean, certain things should just be kept secret. You just don't go showing things that aren't perfect, it's just not cool. Why, if he had only given some thought to the relative intelligence of some folks I bet he never would have been honest enough to show a temporary set up for a lizard that HAD OUTGROWN (read as had since it WAS small enough for the previous enclosure) it's old home. What a buffoon Brian is.

In fact, we should probably boycott BHB entirely. I mean, that is the only way to truly show the disdain and contempt I've seen expressed here. Yup, that's what should be done. Rotten fruit, crucifixion, boycott. That'll show him.

Oh wait, we could burn his place down too. I'll bring marshmallows and some of you bring graham crackers and chocolate. We can make sommores, won't that be fun. We can eat them by the light of the fire while we let Brian know what he did was just too wrong to tolerate.

How DARE he make improvements without having a better plan than just doing them.

Why, I'm just flabbergasted.

Now, where is that lighter fluid.....

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Now you're getting the picture:rolleyes:

I know right god forbid his business actually burn down and someone crucify brian becuase they wouldnt have to look hard for a prime suspect

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Originally Posted by AjBalls

True enough. But when it comes down to it, they're wild animals. With their keen sense of smell they could pick up a rodent from anywhere and just snap. A buddy of mine has a 5' blue Nile, F'N gorgeous BTW, and it went into a feeding frenzy as soon as he walked in with rodents.

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Usually they know when feeding time is, whether they smell rodents or not, if it's done the same time everyday. I am currently raising an Ornate, captive bred, and it gets fed everyday between 6 and 6:30 pm. You better believe he knows what's coming...

And you know what I do when he's done swallowing his last mouse? Yup, I introduce my hand and after he licks it, I start petting him on the back. He's only a little fellow yet, 9 months and about 3 feet, but he's learned the difference between me and dinner. That's the first thing you teach monitors.

Chris

ps - And no, no bites yet...

Good hearing you have success in calming their temperament. Most people hear Niles are nasty lizards and that's how they treat them. Basically a show lizard for them that they ignore and only open the cage to feed and clean.

I've been told by a lot of tegu owner/breeders that you should move a tegu or monitor to a feeding bin, so that they don't start expecting to grab food every time you open the cage. I've done that, and left them in. I leave mine in now, because I don't have issues with it, but I did see increased aggression to hands coming into the cage, when I was dropping food into the cage, instead of moving them.

As far as dangerous because of potential injury, all dogs over medium size can bite off a finger too. Anyone keeping large monitors should be experianced enough to work around them. I move my large monitors before and after feeding, as well as no where near feeding time, and haven't considered it to be "highly dangerous". I'm respectful of them, and keep my attention on what I'm doing. I prefer to keep them calmer by opening the cage up several times without feeding, so they get "bored" with the idea that the door will open.

Again, just because YOU don't do it that way, doesn't mean that no one else should. I'm not going to name a bunch of names for you. Anyone searching the net about keeping tegus or monitors should come across the debate of cage feeding or seperate bin feeding. Just because you haven't read it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Denial

this is awesome Its been a while since Ive seen someone get crucified. Lets make some smores to!!!!

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mmmm smores

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I know what let's do, let's go burn down Brians business. Maybe we could crucify him too, that would be cool huh? I mean, it's not like the guy has what, FOUR or FIVE thousand snakes to take care of. It's not like he's got any employees to oversee. He could surely take time to go get some 2 X 4s and plywood to build a box big enough to let that nile raise its head, even if it wasnt' heated properly and didn't have a pool, or a screen top, or any lighting, but hey, he could lift his head and that's what's important.

Maybe we could beat up his helpers for letting that monitor be put in that tub to begin with. Yeah, it was probably them what done it anyway, don't you think? And we, LOL, shouldn't let THEM get away with that. It's just not right.

So what if a state of the art enclosure with a pool and a 130 degree basking spot and substrate deep enough to burrow in and space enough for a small herd of Niles to live in is being built while that poor poor lizard suffers in agony, not able to lift his head like that. Who cares? The new cage should have been built FIRST. How dare Brian think only of himself and what's easiest for him.

We should probably pelt him most thoroughly with rotted fruit before we crucify him. I mean, certain things should just be kept secret. You just don't go showing things that aren't perfect, it's just not cool. Why, if he had only given some thought to the relative intelligence of some folks I bet he never would have been honest enough to show a temporary set up for a lizard that HAD OUTGROWN (read as had since it WAS small enough for the previous enclosure) it's old home. What a buffoon Brian is.

In fact, we should probably boycott BHB entirely. I mean, that is the only way to truly show the disdain and contempt I've seen expressed here. Yup, that's what should be done. Rotten fruit, crucifixion, boycott. That'll show him.

Oh wait, we could burn his place down too. I'll bring marshmallows and some of you bring graham crackers and chocolate. We can make sommores, won't that be fun. We can eat them by the light of the fire while we let Brian know what he did was just too wrong to tolerate.

How DARE he make improvements without having a better plan than just doing them.

Why, I'm just flabbergasted.

Now, where is that lighter fluid.....

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Wes, you can truly turn sarcasm into an art form. And for that, I salute you... :salute::salute::salute: