WC Gravids?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I have no experience with snowboarding but boy does my imagination have some ideas.

Your opinion is suspect at best, laughable at least, and pathetic in general. You don't know squat from personal experience but are ready to condemn those who do.

Are you, by chance, a graduate of rutgers?

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You don't have to personally own a WC Gravid to figure out that it's a messed up thing to do.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

You don't have to personally own a WC Gravid to figure out that it's a messed up thing to do.

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And without ever owning one you'll never know the satisfaction at getting eggs and then mom to feed. You'll never know if you could do it. You'll never have the experience to have actual first hand knowledge when you condemn people for doing what you cannot.

But hey, it's cool right?

The more this practice continues, the more essential responsible breeders become, because if they "field collect" them to near or even full extinction, we are it people.

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Originally Posted by nixer

this post is so unfounded and the link is utter crap if you read it they rounded up every cat on the island this by now means compares to that.

as for hunting every person who hunts my farm limits out every year LEGALLY and the last day of the season i saw another 30+ deer going to my place. and these animals will do just what your article says they would strip the land and make all other animals die off! if you wanna spend more time worrying about something perhaps you should worry more about deforestation world wide.

also then if all that goes together why dont we stop feeding other nations! let them starve also its not our fault they overpopulated

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I apologize, I did not explain my position clearly. What I am trying to say is that, people without scientific evidence or people who did not do field study of the entire flora and fauna of the environment saying things like "lets hunt this and that to control the population of such-and-such" or something similar. You even said it in your reply - that the deer will strip the land and make all other animals die off. That's exactly my point - these types of statements need to have scientific backing.

I am not against hunting. My husband hunts deer and ducks and fish. I am just saying a lot of hunters say things like "we're controlling the deer population" without definite scientific evidence. This is the same thing as saying buying (or not buying - whichever side of the fence you're on) WC bp's could affect the African fauna... it's a ridiculous argument. Nixer, you said my post was unfounded... that's interesting because what I was trying to say is that I would IGNORE any argument that uses unfounded environmental impact reasoning! So, how can the post be unfounded? I wasn't stating scientific evidence. I was trying to say there is NONE. I linked to that news article to prove my point that even the experts who think they got everything all thought out and studied and researched could still make a huge mistake by thinking they know the environmental impacts of taking out an entire feral cat population. I wasn't juxtaposing the feral cats with WC bp's. This line in the article sums up what I was trying to point out:

"The unintended consequences of the cat-removal project show the dangers of meddling with an ecosystem — even with the best of intentions — without thinking long and hard, the study said."

But then, this is really not the discussion. The discussion is WC gravids... so let's get back to that.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And without ever owning one you'll never know the satisfaction at getting eggs and then mom to feed. You'll never know if you could do it.

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I don't care to find out, I get enough joy from getting stubborn CBs to eat and breed and to successfully lay their eggs. If I want to find something more challenging I'll choose another species, not import a gravid female.

Due to the accusations being thrown around that the Importing of Gravid Ball Pythons was illegal. The staff decided to research the accuracy of these statements.

The information that follows was collected by me from first hand sources and in no way reflects in one way or another BP.net and any position that we have in regards to the subject.

I had a nice long conference call conversation with the Head of the Federal CITES Regulation and Inspection Department along with the Spokesperson for the Import/Export Legal Research Department.

The importing of "gravid" ball pythons is legal!! The gravid condition is not a required declaration for importation. There are "That they are aware of" no local state wide laws regarding the regulation of Gravid reptiles in regards to sale or welfare.

However baby's hatched from females that are sold as "Wild Caught Gravid" must be labeled and resold as "Wild Caught Animals" and not Captive Hatched or Captive Bred as per the US Wildlife Fish and Game Department.

Good job guys. I never thought they were illegal to begin with, but I strongly disagree with the practice.

Here is a copy of their ad on Kingsnake.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/jnj.jpg

Here are some of the beauties they are selling on their site.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...k_blk_burn.jpg

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...gundy_burn.jpg

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...back_copy1.jpg

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...burn_copy1.jpg

Nice huh?:(

I am sorry about the post above. The pictures were a bit too graphic so I took them down.

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Originally Posted by Albey

Here is a copy of their ad on Kingsnake.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/jnj.jpg

Here are some of the beauties they are selling on their site.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...k_blk_burn.jpg

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...gundy_burn.jpg

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...back_copy1.jpg

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...burn_copy1.jpg

Nice huh?:(

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I'm confused. Who is this they to whom you refer?

i know the pics albey is refering to and those snakes were taken from a back burn and then sent here. what does this have to do with ppl her importing when they were sent here that way

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Originally Posted by nixer

i know the pics albey is refering to and those snakes were taken from a back burn and then sent here. what does this have to do with ppl her importing when they were sent here that way

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Not a clue. Apparently he chickened out with some point or other he was trying to make.

burnt gravids? i know a website that are selling those for a little cheaper than unburned ones. dont seem like a big deal to me....what are they supposed to do kill the burnt ones? at least in human care they can get prompt treatment for there wounds....i dunno...i just bought a wc gravid...anxiously awaiting the egg laying. i cant wait for people to cuzz me out cuz of this....:D

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am sorry about the post above. The pictures were a bit too graphic so I took them down.

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I agree, Albey. It saddened me to see those snakes. Some of those burns didn't look very old, either. And still charging top dollar. Good grief, you can get CB adult females for that price.

I'll take my snakes unburned, please.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I don't care to find out, I get enough joy from getting stubborn CBs to eat and breed and to successfully lay their eggs. If I want to find something more challenging I'll choose another species, not import a gravid female.

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How could you comment on the difficulty of feeding, courtship and breeding when you've only been keeping your animals, what? A year?

I posted this about the burn subject on another forum if anyone is interested to find out exactly what the burns are from. Yes, the burns are still fairly fresh, a long with a myriad of other problems they come in with.

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They get burned from bushmen, and tribesmen. They go out into their range, and instead of digging hole through hole, through all those weeds that are parasite infested or possibly hiding a larger predator such as an Afrock, or venomous snake....they simply grab a wheat/grass torch, toss it in, kick back and let it burn. When all is said and done, they go through the cleared area, collect the females in their holes, and sell them to the exporters for normally around $0.05-$0.70 or so. When the exporters get them, and have females ready to lay, they'll hold onto those females until they lay, then sell those females off to the importers here, along with the females with a little more leeway time on their hands with laying. The eggs that do hatch get passed off as c.h. animals, along with some that are actually bred and hatched in African facilities. Not many, but some.

.....a lot of African reptiles are collected, including African Rock Pythons, Nile Monitors, and Savannah Monitors. Less time spent digging and searching, more money made. You can't blame the tribesmen and bushmen....they're just trying to etch a small living and survive, and this is one of the few ways they can. Its the exporters and collectors who abuse it, and take advantage of them. 5 cents a snake to 70 cents a snake...c'mon now.

.....If those animals were close enough to get burned...some pretty bad... then they were close enough to the surface of the hole to breathe in all of that smoke. In that event, they probably have a myriad of neurological damage done, as well as internal damage to the lungs and such. It just doesn't seem quite right, from a business, conservation, or moral standpoint. Our hobby is somewhat about conservation, when this is the complete opposite. As a business, that could be taken in the same light as willingly and knowingly selling a "defective product" whether it be live animal, or a simple machine. From a moral standpoint....I think that speaks for itself... What can you say other that dirtbag?
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Take it as you wish.
Andrew

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

How could you comment on the difficulty of feeding, courtship and breeding when you've only been keeping your animals, what? A year?

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I've been keeping snakes for about 6 years. My first snake was a WC male who was a terrible eater, took me 6 months to successfully get him to eat. So don't try to call me out on crap you know nothing about. :mad: I've never bred snakes and this is my first season but I've already begun to felt the excitement and nervousness that comes with it.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I've been keeping snakes for about 6 years. My first snake was a WC male who was a terrible eater, took me 6 months to successfully get him to eat. So don't try to call me out on crap you know nothing about. :mad: I've never bred snakes and this is my first season but I've already begun to felt the excitement and nervousness that comes with it.

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Call you out on something I know nothing about? Hmmmm....You've already dropped how many snakes you've owned before. You've owned two before your current collection...both dead.....

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Due to the accusations being thrown around that the Importing of Gravid Ball Pythons was illegal. The staff decided to research the accuracy of these statements.

The information that follows was collected by me from first hand sources and in no way reflects in one way or another BP.net and any position that we have in regards to the subject.

I had a nice long conference call conversation with the Head of the Federal CITES Regulation and Inspection Department along with the Spokesperson for the Import/Export Legal Research Department.

The importing of "gravid" ball pythons is legal!! The gravid condition is not a required declaration for importation. There are "That they are aware of" no local state wide laws regarding the regulation of Gravid reptiles in regards to sale or welfare.

However baby's hatched from females that are sold as "Wild Caught Gravid" must be labeled and resold as "Wild Caught Animals" and not Captive Hatched or Captive Bred as per the US Wildlife Fish and Game Department.

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Just a clarification on this -- The US does not have a law in place against the importation of gravids specifically -- the countries they are coming from have laws that restrict exportation -- which makes it a cities violation.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Just a clarification on this -- The US does not have a law in place against the importation of gravids specifically -- the countries they are coming from have laws that restrict exportation -- which makes it a cities violation.

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Where can we find this information?

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Originally Posted by Nate

Where can we find this information?

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Email C.I.T.E.S. with the information you're inquiring on....

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Call you out on something I know nothing about? Hmmmm....You've already dropped how many snakes you've owned before. You've owned two before your current collection...both dead.....

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3. 2 WC from Petco, 1 escaped other I gave to a friend because of relocation, 1 was a '07 CH that died of unknown causes January last year. I never claimed to have extensive experience with BPs but I have had enough to be able to decide my own feelings about WC Gravids.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

3. 2 WC from Petco, 1 escaped other I gave to a friend because of relocation, 1 was a '07 CH that died of unknown causes January last year. I never claimed to have extensive experience with BPs but I have had enough to be able to decide my own feelings about WC Gravids.

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I had no idea your expertise was so well honed.

Truly.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I had no idea your expertise was so well honed.

Truly.

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I had no idea that sarcasm was your expertise.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I had no idea that sarcasm was your expertise.

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rutgers graduate then, eh?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

3. 2 WC from Petco, 1 escaped other I gave to a friend because of relocation, 1 was a '07 CH that died of unknown causes January last year. I never claimed to have extensive experience with BPs but I have had enough to be able to decide my own feelings about WC Gravids.

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Hmmmm....first it was 2 on another forum, now its 3 here. Make up your mind. And if you feel having 3 animals, spaced out between years, and never successfully keeping them gives you enough knowledge for a credible opinion, maybe you need to start backtracking and think....

I think it is enough now unless you have something relevant to add to the original topic, I would recommend you to take the bickering to PM.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

I posted this about the burn subject on another forum if anyone is interested to find out exactly what the burns are from. Yes, the burns are still fairly fresh, a long with a myriad of other problems they come in with.

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Thank you for posting that information... unreal.

Bruce

Edit: Not sure where the censor came from. I didn`t actually cuss ?

There is no need to rape africa of wild bp's,we have enough captive bred being produce right now!!

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

Not sure where the censor came from. I didn`t actually cuss ?

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haha no worries. :D I got rid of it fer ya :gj:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I think it is enough now unless you have something relevant to add to the original topic, I would recommend you to take the bickering to PM.

Thank you.

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How would the inexperience, lack of general, and advanced knowledge of said topics, and said species, a long with the simple point of not being able to keep the species, give said person "enough" validity and experience to their opinion in order to post so strongly for, or against the topic?...

I think that stays pretty pertinent to the topic, as the original question was "what are your feelings" on said topic. Without an educated opinion on it, what does that leave their opinion, other than a grosse understatement?...

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

How could you comment on the difficulty of feeding, courtship and breeding when you've only been keeping your animals, what? A year?

I posted this about the burn subject on another forum if anyone is interested to find out exactly what the burns are from. Yes, the burns are still fairly fresh, a long with a myriad of other problems they come in with.

-------------

They get burned from bushmen, and tribesmen. They go out into their range, and instead of digging hole through hole, through all those weeds that are parasite infested or possibly hiding a larger predator such as an Afrock, or venomous snake....they simply grab a wheat/grass torch, toss it in, kick back and let it burn. When all is said and done, they go through the cleared area, collect the females in their holes, and sell them to the exporters for normally around $0.05-$0.70 or so. When the exporters get them, and have females ready to lay, they'll hold onto those females until they lay, then sell those females off to the importers here, along with the females with a little more leeway time on their hands with laying. The eggs that do hatch get passed off as c.h. animals, along with some that are actually bred and hatched in African facilities. Not many, but some.

.....a lot of African reptiles are collected, including African Rock Pythons, Nile Monitors, and Savannah Monitors. Less time spent digging and searching, more money made. You can't blame the tribesmen and bushmen....they're just trying to etch a small living and survive, and this is one of the few ways they can. Its the exporters and collectors who abuse it, and take advantage of them. 5 cents a snake to 70 cents a snake...c'mon now.

.....If those animals were close enough to get burned...some pretty bad... then they were close enough to the surface of the hole to breathe in all of that smoke. In that event, they probably have a myriad of neurological damage done, as well as internal damage to the lungs and such. It just doesn't seem quite right, from a business, conservation, or moral standpoint. Our hobby is somewhat about conservation, when this is the complete opposite. As a business, that could be taken in the same light as willingly and knowingly selling a "defective product" whether it be live animal, or a simple machine. From a moral standpoint....I think that speaks for itself... What can you say other that dirtbag?
---------------------------------

Take it as you wish.
Andrew

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Thank you.
Without the knowledge or experience to have a proper opinion on this matter, this information will probably deter me towards the side against wild caught gravids, without a doubt.
However, since everyone is arguing rather than talking about the subject, I wonder if anyone could share with me the PROS of wild caught gravids, considering I have only seen CONS?

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Thank you.
Without the knowledge or experience to have a proper opinion on this matter, this information will probably deter me towards the side against wild caught gravids, without a doubt.
However, since everyone is arguing rather than talking about the subject, I wonder if anyone could share with me the PROS of wild caught gravids, considering I have only seen CONS?

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As of now, there aren't many do to the large amount of animals that founded the captive breeding population. They do bring in fresh blood, with the rate we are breeding morphs, and inbreeding them, that might possibly help with outcrossing. Other than that, not many. You can get the same from captive hatched animals. Its not nearly as detrimental, and it supplies fresh blood. It just takes longer for them to be raised for breeding.

PRO-
THERE GRAVID.
that means for the price of one snake, you could get like 5!!!

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Originally Posted by azpythons

PRO-
THERE GRAVID.
that means for the price of one snake, you could get like 5!!!

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CON
THEIR WC

So for the price of one snake, you get like 1000 mites 5 ticks two different parasites and a large vet bill from vetting the adult female after she lays and then all of the babys once they hatch!

( Im sorry, couldnt help myself here)

CON
ALL THOSE COULD VERY EASILY BE with any c.b snake as well
might be higher chances for w.c. but its what goes with it.

p.s. i only had two ticks, and they were dead!!

(so far)


p.s. Wheres all these 100 mites???

ahh no i must gotta broken w.c......do you think i could get another????

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Originally Posted by azpythons

CON
ALL THOSE COULD VERY EASILY BE with any c.b snake as well
might be higher chances for w.c. but its what goes with it.

p.s. i only had two ticks, and they were dead!!

(so far)


p.s. Wheres all these 100 mites???

ahh no i must gotta broken w.c......do you think i could get another????

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I wouldnt, im sure they have them as well. Ticks hide in the Vent btw so watch out when they lay.

ive never seen mites on wc gravids that didnt get them from some other animal. as for the ticks the most ive seen was 40 but i have seen some that had none at all.

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Originally Posted by nixer

ive never seen mites on wc gravids that didnt get them from some other animal. as for the ticks the most ive seen was 40 but i have seen some that had none at all.

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Im not sure, but mites might not be native to africa? Any info on that?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Im not sure, but mites might not be native to africa? Any info on that?

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ive never not heard that they were from africa but from asia.
the common reptile mite is Ophionyssus natricis

I heard they originated in India.

I realize this post is a few days quiet now, but I didn't see anyone mention one important issue that has to do with importation, and that's the accidental importation of parasites. There are several papers on introduced parasites (like ticks) that were brought into the U.S. on imported reptiles, some specifically on ball pythons. Some of these parasites are also vectors for some pretty nasty introduced diseases, including some that are fatal to livestock and deer, and some dangerous to humans.

I disagree with large-scale importation of ball pythons for many other reasons already stated in this thread, but at this point it would be like beating a dead horse to go over them again. It's also apparent that no minds are going to be changed. I just thought I'd bring this point up in case it was something that hadn't been thought of yet.

v

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Originally Posted by Vacado

I realize this post is a few days quiet now, but I didn't see anyone mention one important issue that has to do with importation, and that's the accidental importation of parasites. There are several papers on introduced parasites (like ticks) that were brought into the U.S. on imported reptiles, some specifically on ball pythons. Some of these parasites are also vectors for some pretty nasty introduced diseases, including some that are fatal to livestock and deer, and some dangerous to humans.

I disagree with large-scale importation of ball pythons for many other reasons already stated in this thread, but at this point it would be like beating a dead horse to go over them again. It's also apparent that no minds are going to be changed. I just thought I'd bring this point up in case it was something that hadn't been thought of yet.

v

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reptile parasites are not the same as the ones you are refering to.

What is that supposed to mean? One paper I looked at was very specifically about the established populations of exotic reptile parasites (specifically ticks) on imported reptiles in Florida. Just because it's a "snake" tick does not mean it will not bite a human, or that it won't transmit a disease. Humans all over the world suffer from being hosts of non host-specific parasites, or from being accidental hosts to host-specific parasites. Many parasites are zoonotic.

v

Hi everyone,
When I did the Ghana ball python survey for CITES, I did not come across any people trading in gravid females. Licensed trappers working for the exporters were taking gravid females from the wild and the exporters had the females lay their eggs in captivity. The females were then released back into the wild, under the supervision of government wildlife officers. Wildlife managers term call this "ranching". It is done with quite a few species of crocodilians. The conservation value of ranching is that the commercial operators depend on a wild population and its habitat for their livelihoods. Farming is a closed system, so it doesn't matter if the wild populations survive. In fact, it gives you a competitive advantage if the wild populations dwindle. You can download my report from: http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cite...thon_ghana.pdf.
Happy Easter!
Steve

I don't believe in keeping WC animals of any kind in captivity.

I know what you mean. Those WC gravids probably spent a maximum in captivity before they were released. However, my job as a CITES consultant was to determine whether the program was sustainable and whether it could be improved. I was there to provide technical assistance. My personal thoughts/feelings were of no relevance to the task at hand.

I should should have written "a maximum of two months".

I think the number of imports should definitely be cut back or done away with all together. If you think about it though, if they were never imported we wouldn't have any here in the first place! But the only reason they're imported at the rate they are is because they can be flipped for a nice profit. Most new buyers would rather spend the $80 at Petco than $150-300 from a reputable breeder.

The normal ball python that your new buyer paid $80.00 for at Petco is available from that reputable breeder for about $20 - $25.00. People pay $80 at Petco because Petco has a big sign along a major thoroughfare, and everyone knows it's there. The reputable breeder has no sign, and nobody knows he / she exists, except the folks who read online classifieds or go to reptile shows.

The python that breeder charges $150 - $200.00 for isn't the same snake.

~Bruce