Oh my god, please not IBD.

I am thinking of Jen all over again. A sick snake, people donating money to help, and bringing in another snake. It has many of the elements of the Jen saga (except you may not have anything serious).:please:

Like many of the earlier posters, I am of the mind that it is unlikely to be IBD because of the time line. But having an autopsy will put any doubts at rest. If it were IBD, sterlizing at this point would more than likely be useless since it has been indicated that IBD is also airborne. As with Jen, your animals are sharing air (close contact).

My heart goes out to you and I am sure it's nothing as bad as IBD..but until you know for certain..being careful is the best course of action and this means not bringing in anymore snakes.
Especially since you don't seem able to afford the Vet bill for this snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

If it were IBD, sterlizing at this point would more than likely be useless since it has been indicated that IBD is also airborne. As with Jen, your animals are sharing air (close contact).

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From what I have read, IBD does not appear to be airborne. Where did you read that? Just curious.... I have read through parasites and mucous, or fecal contact... but not airborne.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

From what I have read, IBD does not appear to be airborne. Where did you read that? Just curious.... I have read through parasites and mucous, or fecal contact... but not airborne.

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I had done some research on different aspects of IBD, and how to recognize symptoms and best quarantine methods a few years ago. I can't find those articles now, but I did find this article by Peter Kahl:

http://www.pkreptiles.com/informatio...ticles/ibd.asp

I want to point in particular to this bolded sentence in the paragraph:

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As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).

There is at this time no treatment for the disease and, as it is at this time always fatal and highly contagious, euthanasia is the course of action recommended. Even if the snake can be kept alive through supportive measures (hydration and force-feeding), the damage to the nerves, brain, spinal cord and internal organs is so great--and progressive--that live is only prolonged with an ever decreasing quality and increasing pain.

Due to the increasing incidence of this disease, it cannot be stated or urged strongly enough to QUARANTINE ALL NEW BOIDS upon acquisition for at least 3-6 months, and to take precautions when visiting other collections, pet stores and expos/swaps.

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We want to remember that snakes sneeze, just like they have other bodily functions.

If I am in error, please correct me. My research may be outdated now.

*quarantine features..I have a very old house and there are radiators..I do not have a shared ventilation system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

I had done some research on different aspects of IBD, and how to recognize symptoms and best quarantine methods a few years ago. I can't find those articles now, but I did find this article by Peter Kahl:

http://www.pkreptiles.com/informatio...ticles/ibd.asp

I want to point in particular to this bolded sentence in the paragraph:


We want to remember that snakes sneeze, just like they have other bodily functions.

If I am in error, please correct me. My research may be outdated now.

*quarantine features..I have a very old house and there are radiators..I do not have a shared ventilation system.

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Thats where I'm confused, I was under the impression that snakes cannot cough because of no diaphram, and I guess I shoved sneezing into that category as well.

If snakes could sneeze, then I suppose any sickness could be airborne, and it would probably also be possible for us to transport the virus for short distances through our nose like some viruses can.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Thats where I'm confused, I was under the impression that snakes cannot cough because of no diaphram, and I guess I shoved sneezing into that category as well.

If snakes could sneeze, then I suppose any sickness could be airborne, and it would probably also be possible for us to transport the virus for short distances through our nose like some viruses can.

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That is very true.

A google run could/should bring up any pertinent information on this ability for yes or no...my understanding is that they can sneeze, just like they can break wind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by broadude

That is very true.

A google run could/should bring up any pertinent information on this ability for yes or no...my understanding is that they can sneeze, just like they can break wind.

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But breaking wind doesn't involve a diaphram like sneezing does...

Can anyone chime in? Snakes sneezing? Possible?

Sneezing is usually caused by a reflex due to nasal irritation or irritation of the diaphragm.

http://priory.com/vet/vetrept2.htm

"reptiles lack a diaphragm"

http://animal.discovery.com/guides/r...natomy_02.html

The respiratory system of snakes includes the trachea (windpipe), bronchi, lungs, and air sac. The trachea originates at the glottis, at the back of the oral cavity, and terminates near the heart, where it branches into two bronchi. The left bronchus leads to the left lung, which is reduced or completely vestigial. Vestigial organs are small, degenerate, and non-functioning. The right bronchus leads to the right lung, which is elongated. The anterior portion of the lungs is vascular (with blood vessels) and functions in gas exchange, but the second half of the lung is an avascular (without blood vessels) air sac that extends into the tail region. The air sac performs a hydrostatic function in most snakes, regulating pressure inside the body cavity. Because snakes do not have a diaphragm, air enters and leaves the lung due to action of the body muscles and movement of the ribs.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/publicatio...gguamsnake.cfm

A human can catch the flu without ever actually making physical contact with someone who is sick. While snakes dont have diaphrams making it impossible for them to sneeze on each other a healthy snake likewise can contract a paramyxovirus via secondary contact, such as slithering through a sick snakes secretions.

a rapid exhalation would be an effective transmission method of secretions. a sneeze, though more powerful, is not needed.

I think we're getting bogged down here....let's focus on getting the necropsy done.

Also, as for another snake coming in, it would be best if you could either put it off or house it at someone else's house for the time being.

I would also not mention IBD at the reptile show. Unless it's diagnosed, there's no need to cause a panic.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

In regards to the snake I thought had an RI, perhaps this was an isolated incident. I know its not normal for a bp to excrete mucous, but I did startle the hell out of her and she had eaten probably a hour before. She is not weezing or popping or anything. Could it just have been extra saliva from the feeding? The snake in question is one of my healthiest ones, one of the rat eaters.

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Also could have been water, maybe she just got done drinking and hadn't gotten it all down. I know my snakes spit up water after drinking when i touch them or startle them.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

I think we're getting bogged down here....let's focus on getting the necropsy done.

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I found it quite relevant, since it was brought up about the possible spreading of disease through the air to his other snakes. I think that is still a concern of his. Isn't it? Might as well discuss all possibilites.

The snake has been sent, now we wait.

Again, best of luck Peter.

good luck Peter.

just sit tight now and try to relax.
No animals in our out until you know for sure :salute:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I found it quite relevant, since it was brought up about the possible spreading of disease through the air to his other snakes. I think that is still a concern of his. Isn't it? Might as well discuss all possibilites.

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I agree..it's also bringing up other possibilities of spreading (anything). I personally have come across information that has affirmed that snakes sneeze. However, I am not sure how reliable this *internet* source is. I would encourage everyone to do their own google search.

Forwarned is forearmed.:gj:

So I just got back to the site today...

I don't really even know what to say. Those videos were heartbreaking, I can't imagine how scared you are.

I am wishing you the best of luck over here that test results are good to you. I am also very sorry for the loss of your little one :(
I know you sent her out already, but if you still need funds, PM with the paypal account.

breathe. :hug:

Not that you should ever think this way but if is "the worst" I am very sorry to hear. Alot of people out there don't get me and my love for snakes I do have dogs and fish too. People that I know often wonder how I can "connect" w/ them as say I dog or another "standered" pet. But as for as all on here I am sure, you just do and it is heartbreaaking to have one go. I have never had this happen to me so I can't see that I am speaking from experiance but I do want to say GO SEE A VET A.S.A.P. and if things don't work out of the best I m sorry I do know that it is hard! Good luck and keep us posted ty-Ray

Peter~
It's so hard to sit and wait. For that, I wish for you patience.
It's so hard to not think that the worst will come back to you. For that, I wish for you positive thoughts and a leap of faith.
It's so hard to keep going when things look so bleak, for that I wish for you strength.
I am thinking of you and am really hoping for an isolated neurological incident based on lack of nutrition.
:hug:

Another CH died today. Before anyone assumes the worst, hear me out, I have a theory. The one that died today, did NOT show any of the frightening neurological symptoms. She was however, one of my non feeders. Now this means something to me. Out of all of the CH's, most are doing fine, all the rat and mouse eaters couldn't be better. However, all my non feeders, which have all been assist fed a few times are not doing fine. This would lead me to believe that all of the non feeders are not feeding for the same reason, possibly some type of internal parasites or some other bacterial load within them. I figure that the neurological symptoms were possible caused by extreme dehydration or some other fluke that only affected THAT particular animal. All the non feeders have been like this since I got them. It has not "spread" to any previously eating CH's. Now I figure once these results get back, I'll know what I'm dealing with, either treatable or non-treatable. Then I can take it from there...

Any thoughts?

Did you get fecals done when you originally got the snakes?

Hey Peter, sorry you are in the middle of such a scare. Whether the cause of death is thought to possibly be IBD or not it's always good to have necropsies performed. Dehydrated and malnurished animals can exhibit the symptoms described by your videos when they are nearing death even if they are "otherwise" healthy. That being said I hope there are no signs of IBD or any other virus. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Did you get fecals done when you originally got the snakes?

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No I did not.

This sounds awful and scary for you. Sorry to hear you lost another one. I wish you the best of luck with this situation.

i know almost exactly what you are going through, i bought ten snakes from quality first pets of texas (ten bux apiece) and to make a long story short, four died. they were all non eaters that i assist fed. i called and asked (when the first one died i froze for a necropsy, bad idea b/c freezing kills most of the bad bacteria, if there is any) well it turns out that the way they are handled before they are shipped tends to stress some of them out, and i got what i paid for basically. the rest are doing fine *crosses fingers* but i cried after each and every one of them died. i know how you feel, and i sympathize. but remember that these things happen, and although it sucks really bad, its bound to happen sometime. i am sorry for your loss and crossing my fingers that the results come back just fine. :please:

Wow; I hope that it is just an issue that can be cleared up and not IBD. I guess that time will tell.. I wish you the best in all of this.

Mini Update: I have yet to recieve the results of the necropsy, but all my other bps are doing well, including the rest of the CH females. And it is also apparent I was most definately incorrect about that other snake having an RI.

Good to hear that the rest of the snakes seem ok so far. Do you know when you'll hear back about the necropsy?

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Originally Posted by kc261

Good to hear that the rest of the snakes seem ok so far. Do you know when you'll hear back about the necropsy?

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The vet's office did not give me a specified time frame.

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Originally Posted by Pwilliams58

The vet's office did not give me a specified time frame.

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I know the waiting is hard, but its out of your hands now. I really am hoping the best for you!

Any word as of yet? or updates? Hoping all is well for you and everyone else so far!

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Originally Posted by mooingtricycle

Any word as of yet? or updates? Hoping all is well for you and everyone else so far!

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Nope, nothing yet. All the other snakes are still 100% though :)

Updates?

umm ...

Nothing yet, everybody is still 100% though.

Has there been any updates yet?

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...793#post872793