Kiss your hobby goodbye!!!! USFW Proposed ban!!!!

I will do my part in sending in as many letters as possible as well as hounding my congressman I'm sure that can't hurt..lol

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Originally Posted by Larry Suttles

I will do my part in sending in as many letters as possible as well as hounding my congressman I'm sure that can't hurt..lol

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Larry, what about a show about this? Finding someone who knows this proposal well and can speak on it and emphasize that responses need to be professional in order to help prevent this?

I'm hoping this thing goes no where. After all it's just an inquiry, I imagine getting something passed after everyone turns in their letters and whatnot would be way to much of a struggle. Hoping for the best and mailing my letter.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

An online petition has been created: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/

I agree, however, that it might be better if we gather our data and write our letters or comment on their site. Remember, they are leaving this open for us... they are giving us an opportunity to prove to them why this would not be a good thing for the community or the economy. They want DATA. So let's give it to them!

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Yes, please spend your time writing comments on the actual comment site and not on the petition. You will get further and be heard more there than on the other.

Again, keep in mind that this is nowhere NEAR being made a law. This is just the fact-finding, very beginning inquiry which is why the submittal is so broad in listing all boas and pythons. Once some actual research is done and knowledgeable people are involved you will most likely see this restriction very limited.

Also, they are NOT looking to take away anyone's pets. They are only working on limiting transportation (which is what the Lacey Act is all about). While this is still a big issue, please try and tone down the hysteria of "OMG!!! They're going to take away my snake!!!". Even if the submittal became a law, as it is now it would just mean that you wouldn't be able to ship the named snakes across state lines. Definitely a big issue and one that needs smart, articulate people to comment on and get their voices heard. I know we have a lot of people on this board and in the reptile community that hopefully will come forward with their knowledge and information to get this done right.

I am so glad this group exists and someone was on the ball spreading the word before I was informed...

I am in the process of telling everyone I know and spreading the word any way I can.

Our two ball pythons, Flash and Roses :snake:, are like our children. When they were threatened by stupidity, I got very angry and started typing. That was 4 hours ago, and I am not done yet.

Has everyone contacted their elected officials yet? How about their local TV station and offered to show on the evening News just how stupid this proposal is?

Don't take for granted this will just go away... WE ALL NEED TO BE VISIBLE AND VOCAL....

I look forward to putting this stupidity to bed and getting back to talking about important issues, like eating habits, etc....

All the best from Nevada

Tim and Rosie (and Flash :snake:and Roses:snake:)

OK the more research I have done I have found some bright spots.

This is not a bill. This is just a Proposed statement. The vet breeders should remember back in 2001 when the National Human society tried to ban all reptile keeping all together. It did not even make it past the proposed state.

We do need to keep together and be smart but this is not a bill trying to be passed.

We need to stay focused on this as this will not go through as it is stated. It will be changed. I think what they are looking for is a final bill to shut down importing. The rest is just fluff to keep us off the main focus.

I put a call into a few DNR agents I know. I KNOW I KNOW the enemy. But they have helped me in the past when others have said things about me and hots.

But this is at the very beginning stages. This is nto the first time it has been tried. Just be smart about it and be calm. It should not pass. Do not send letters saying you should ban this but not that. Like

You should ban large snakes in florida but the rest of the country is fine. THEY WILL USE THIS. They will use the part of you saying ban large snakes in florida.. Stick to facts. and support the hobby as a whole.

I will post more info as I get it. But I think the main focus is the importing of large snakes. Where are 85% of large snakes imported to? FLORIDA...................

In my surfing this a.m I found a post from someone kind enough to share information on what needs to be done by us to prevent this from happening. If you belong to other forums PLEASE CROSS POST!
Consider this your homework assignment. Break out your pen and paper or drink a Monster, hit your keyboard and start composing your response ensuring you answer each and every question they require. Here is the actual proposal and what they want to hear!

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Fish and Wildlife Service

50 CFR Part 16

[FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015; 94410-1342-0000-N3]
RIN 1018-AV68


Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning
Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera

AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.

ACTION: Notice of inquiry.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are
reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor
snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to
the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act. The importation and
introduction of constrictor snakes into the natural ecosystems of the
United States may

[[Page 5785]]

pose a threat to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry;
to the health and welfare of human beings; and to the welfare and
survival of wildlife and wildlife resources in the United States. An
injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or
transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the
United States by any means, without a permit. Permits may be issued for
scientific, medical, educational, or zoological purposes. This document
seeks comments from the public to aid in determining if a proposed rule
is warranted.

DATES: We will accept comments received or postmarked on or before
April 30, 2008.

ADDRESSES: You may submit comments by one of the following methods:
Federal eRulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov.
Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing,
Attn: RIN 1018-AV68, Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S.
Fish and Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222,
Arlington, VA 22203.
Instructions: We will not accept e-mail or faxes. We will post all
comments on http://www.regulations.gov. This generally means that we
will post any personal information you provide us (see the Public
Comments section below for more information).

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Erin Williams, Branch of Invasive
Species at (703) 358-2034 or erin_williams@fws.gov.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: On September 21, 2006, we received a
petition from the South Florida Water Management District (SFWMD)
requesting that Burmese pythons be considered for inclusion in the
injurious wildlife regulations pursuant to the Lacey Act (18 U.S.C.
42). SFWMD is concerned about the number of Burmese pythons found in
Florida, particularly in the Everglades National Park. We are looking
at obtaining information on constrictor species in the Python, Boa and
Eunectes genera for possible addition to the injurious wildlife list
under the Lacey Act.
The regulations contained in 50 CFR part 16 implement the Lacey
Act, as amended. Under the terms of the injurious wildlife provisions
of the Lacey Act, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to
prohibit the importation and interstate transportation of species
designated by the Secretary as injurious. Injurious wildlife are those
species, offspring, and eggs that are injurious or potentially
injurious to wildlife and wildlife resources, to human beings, and to
the interests of forestry, horticulture, or agriculture of the United
States. Wild mammals, wild birds, fish, mollusks, crustaceans,
amphibians, and reptiles are the only organisms that can be added to
the injurious wildlife list. The lists of injurious wildlife are at 50
CFR 16.11-16.15. If the process initiated by this notice results in the
addition of a species to the list of injurious wildlife contained in 50
CFR part 16, their importation into or transportation between States,
the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any
territory or possession of the United States would be prohibited,
except by permit for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific
purposes (in accordance with permit regulations at 50 CFR 16.22), or by
Federal agencies without a permit solely for their own use.

Public Comments

This notice of inquiry solicits biological, economic, or other data
on adding species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera to the list of
injurious wildlife. This information, along with other sources of data,
will be used to determine if these species are a threat, or potential
threat, to those interests of the United States delineated above, and
thus warrant addition to the list of injurious reptiles in 50 CFR
16.15.
You may submit your comments and materials concerning this notice
of inquiry by one of the methods listed in the ADDRESSES section. We
will not accept comments sent by e-mail or fax or to an address not
listed in the ADDRESSES section. We will not accept anonymous comments;
your comment must include your first and last name, city, State,
country, and postal (zip) code. Finally, we will not consider hand-
delivered comments that we do not receive, or mailed comments that are
not postmarked, by the date specified in the DATES section.
We will post your entire comment--including your personal
identifying information--on http://www.regulations.gov. If you provide
personal identifying information in addition to the required items
specified in the previous paragraph, such as your street address, phone
number, or e-mail address, you may request at the top of your document
that we withhold this information from public review. However, we
cannot guarantee that we will be able to do so.
Comments and materials we receive, as well as supporting
documentation we used in preparing this notice of inquiry, will be
available for public inspection on http://www.regulations.gov, or by
appointment, during normal business hours, at the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Arlington, VA 22203.
We are soliciting public comments and supporting data to gain
additional information and specifically seek comment on the following
questions:
(1) What regulations does your State have pertaining to the use,
transport, or production of Python, Boa and Eunectes genera?
(2) How many species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera are
currently in production for wholesale or retail sale, and in how many
and which States?
(3) How many businesses sell Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(4) How many businesses breed Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(5) What are the annual sales for Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(6) Please provide the number of Python, Boa or Eunectes species,
if any, permitted within each State.
(7) What would it cost to eradicate Python, Boa or Eunectes
individuals or populations, or similar species, if found?
(8) What are the costs of implementing propagation, recovery, and
restoration programs for native species that are affected by Python,
Boa or Eunectes species, or similar snake species?
(9) What State-listed species would be impacted by the introduction
of Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(10) What species have been impacted, and how, by Python, Boa or
Eunectes species?

Dated: January 11, 2008.
Lyle Laverty,
Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks.
[FR Doc. E8-1770 Filed 1-30-08; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4310-55-P

~*~ Kim :salute:

Listen to Brian's Cast guys.

http://thereptileroom.org/forum/inde...opic=12445&hl=

Are Rosy Boas included? What's the use of proposing this ban!?

I don't quite understand how ball pythons have been lumped into this. What grounds to they have to say that ball pythons, and other small pythons/boas are a threat to the environment?

I realize that there are quite a few animals out there that do pose risks to the environment and even humans, but I just don't understand how smaller reptiles are suddenly targeted as a danger and threat to the wild...

Is there any significant proof of people releasing ball pythons and it causing a problem? anywhere?

you can go on the site and send them comments on this

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f

click the button next to add comments!

We as a community should NOT make any concessions to ban large constrictors to save the rest. I think if they get this passed they are fine with that but I think what they want is for us to offer up the ban on the big ones as a compromise to keep a larger ban from going through. It is very important for us to not give into giving up anything. They sure will not stop after they get even a small piece of this passed so we should not feel obliged to make it any easier for them for any of it. We should keep it nice and professional but totally blanket them with negative response to this idea.


Chuck

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Originally Posted by Chuck

We as a community should NOT make any concessions to ban large constrictors to save the rest. I think if they get this passed they are fine with that but I think what they want is for us to offer up the ban on the big ones as a compromise to keep a larger ban from going through. It is very important for us to not give into giving up anything. They sure will not stop after they get even a small piece of this passed so we should not feel obliged to make it any easier for them for any of it. We should keep it nice and professional but totally blanket them with negative response to this idea.


Chuck

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100% agree with that... We need to fight for everything. I love my big snakes to death... If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile. This bill would effect everything from pet stores, rodent suppliers, reptile supply companies, feed companies that supply the rodent suppliers, etc. People will lose their jobs!

Big snakes cannot and will not be a problem other than FL, along with every other boa, python, and eunectus, they cannot thrive in these different enviorments, it's either going to be too dry, too cold, etc. There is absolutly no reason to fight for just the smaller snakes... Also take into account, certain snakes will slowly fade away in captivity over the years. Without interstate trade, lets take Green Anacondas for instance, there aren't enough breeders out there to keep these snakes going in captivity. No one is going to try and breed Greens and move 30+ offspring locally... Just wont happen... Not even to mention things like the Boelens Python which will sooner or later be non-existent in captivity aside from zoos.

Please, lets fight for everything!!:taz:

The USF&W Service's Notice of Inquiry says "we are looking at obtaining information on constrictor species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the injurious wildlife list under the Lacey Act." (my emphasis)

So this wouldn't include, among others, carpets or GTP's? They're in family pythonidae but in genus morelia, at least for now. And how could the introduction of the rubber boa be harmful when it's already native to the northwestern U.S.?

Doesn't sound like much thought has been devoted to the proposed new regulation (right, nothing new) and I seriously doubt that the drafters had a clue about the larger domestic, captive bred ball python scene.

Obviously everyone must take this seriously and respond with vigor and alarm, I'd be stunned if any regulation went further than Burmese Pythons -- due to the Everglades problem -- and maybe other of the largest snakes.

Something else that might be going on here is a sort of stealthy response to complaints about the whole pet reptile pet scene, fueled to a a degree by the usual irresponsible sellers and buyers.

I will post a more thought out response later but , One point that needs to be outlined to the feds is the following. How many species would be exstinct today if it wernt for the importing and captive breeding by breeders in this hobby. Hogg Island Boas GONE! Cay Caulker Boas GONE!! Pearl Island ? Private breeders have picked up the slack where many countries have failed! :taz:

I am typing up a letter today. . .

I am sure that there have been irresponsible keepers that have released some type of snake in the wild.
BUT…
A lot of people are not thinking about the environmental disasters that can occur in Florida. In 1992 Hurricane Andrew hit, that storm destroyed so many buildings, including zoos. The zoos even reported that they lost some reptile species.

Theoretically if the zoo lost large constrictors and maybe some of the houses that were damaged lost their pets which can cause a small population of boids in Florida. Burmese pythons for instance can have 20-80+ eggs. I am pretty sure you can see the chain.

Then when hurricane Charley and other hurricanes that year hit...those again ruined many homes.
I think these government officials need to think about these events and not just jumps to the conclusion that anyone with any type of snake is going to release it.

(Sorry if I repeated what another member has wrote, I have not read through everyone's comments yet)

This is the scary part (As if it wasn't bad enough). If Boas and Pythons are added to the "injurious wildlife" list, it carries a lot of extra baggage. Not just a ban on import and interstate transport, but a ban on ownership....

So if your thinking, oh well, I'll still have my pets even if this ban goes through, then think again!

This proposed ban is something even PETA and Co couldn't of dreamed of having put forward!

So I urge everyone to contact your state reps, not just the USF&W, push the economical damage this ban would bring to your state.... get the state reps on your side if possible.

Push the facts, the impact on pet stores that sell heating, feeders, bedding supplies etc for us keepers is a fact. Not to mention the cash flow the states and federal government get from sales from private breeders/businesses that sell the same and more.... get it in their minds the impact it will have. And the impact it will have on those families for which it is their sole lively hood.

Get signatures on petitions (Smaller family owned pet stores may allow it, inform them! and see if they will allow a petition be in their store to sign) and send a copy to your state reps. Research the facts, get a number on the amount of reptiles keepers for them to see just how big this hobby/industry is in your state, nation wide.

If you can get your state reps to write and oppose this, then do so, it carries some added weight.

USF&W need to be burried in the form of opposition to this proposed ban.

Just finished my letter and printed it...gonna let it sit on my desk for a while and then read it again, make sure it's okay...

Happy Monday! :mad:

Here is a post by a senior member of another forum
I frequent I want to share it as I think he has good things to say.

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I was asked by another member for some talking points when writing a letter it USFW about the proposed ban that will destroy our hobby.

Keep in mind that Govt will not be moved by our collective passion for reptiles. Our only hope is a more reasoned approach that appeals to the issues with wich Govt is typically concerned. Thjat said here are some ideas:
I think one problem people have is that they think that the Govt, actually cares about their rights, wich it clearly does not. Too many people write letters that emphasise how much they "love their burms" , these comments will fall on deaf ears.

I would suggest stressing the economic impact and total lack of ecological impact.

Point out that to impliment any new regulations would cost money, how do they plan to pay for the enforcement? This arguement has sunk several proposed bans around the country, including im my state of Washington. In the end this single issue, and not the pleadings of snake owners saved us at the state and local level.

I would point out that if they are really concerned about feral boids that this legislation could have the exact opposite effect they are looking for. If you have tens of thousands of breeders around the country who can no longer sell their animals , it seems likley that some may release them into the wild, what is someone supposed to do with 500 ball pythons that they can no longer sell. Some may release them out of spite , in retaliation for the ban.

I would also frame the issue as a "states rights" issue. The problem with feral boids only effects the extreme southern portion of a single state, so why is this a federal issue, it seems to me that this is something that the state of Florida should resolve fore iteself.

The fact is that this is the only place in the US where this is even possible. This combined witht he fact that every state in the country already has laws on the books that make it illeagal to release any animal into the wild, make this new law unesessary. Simple enforcement of existing laws is whats needed

I would implore everyone to actually send in a letter, and do it now.

Nick

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Originally Posted by Chuck

Here is a post by a senior member of another forum
I frequent I want to share it as I think he has good things to say.

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Thanks for posting these points.

I also wanted to say it would be a good idea to post your letters before sending them. It will help everyone with writing there letter and give the poster a chance to polish there letter. It will also create an information pool for some others to template for there letter who may not be as fluent on the issues to make a much stronger point direct in the proper areas.



Chuck

Thank you so much for passing this on, I've posted it around other places too. Hopefully together as a community Herpers can help the feds to see sense!

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Originally Posted by Chuck

I also wanted to say it would be a good idea to post your letters before sending them. It will help everyone with writing there letter and give the poster a chance to polish there letter. It will also create an information pool for some others to template for there letter who may not be as fluent on the issues to make a much stronger point direct in the proper areas.

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Hear, hear. I haven't written my letter yet because I want it to be as informative and to the point as I can make it. So if you've already written yours, please share! :snake:

I am going over to my parents house to speak with my step father who is an attorney. We are going to write a letter to USFW, as well as Idahos officials.

It will be sad, sad day if they pass this. I hope they get the point when they get overwhelmed with letters.

If this rediculous law does get passed (god forbid) do we have to give away the snakes we already own?

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Originally Posted by pythontricker

If this rediculous law does get passed (god forbid) do we have to give away the snakes we already own?

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From what I see, no. This is saying however, that any snakes you own, covered on this proposal, are forbidden/restricted from being moved from state to state. Basically if you move to a different state, your forced to give up your pet(s). Whether it be sell them locally, turn them in for adoption, or have them destroyed. This isn't good at all...

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Originally Posted by Onua Nuva

Are Rosy Boas included? What's the use of proposing this ban!?

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Since my question/post (the one I quoted above) about Rosy Boas doesn't seem to have been answered, I'm just making sure people see it by posting it again. Also, this ban doesn't include colubrids so you won't have to worry about "all your snakes" (even though I'm sure many of you like your boids more than your colubrids).

why dont you read the bill. thats what we need people to do.


We need people to actually read the bill, not just ask questions about what is affected. Read it, understand it, respond to it.

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Originally Posted by Onua Nuva

Since my question/post (the one I quoted above) about Rosy Boas doesn't seem to have been answered, I'm just making sure people see it by posting it again. Also, this ban doesn't include colubrids so you won't have to worry about "all your snakes" (even though I'm sure many of you like your boids more than your colubrids).

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They are not in the genera boa, python, or eunectes so it does not ban the import or export of rosy boas.

Here is a list of the snakes that can not be imported or exported if this passes.

Pythons
P. anchietae Angolan Python

P. curtus Blood Python

P. molurus Indian Python (burmese)

P. regius Ball Python :tears:

P. reticulatus Reticulated Python

P. sebae African rock Python

P. timoriensis Timor python


Boas
I am not going to list all but any boa that is Boa constrictor ... is on the list.

Eunectes
E. murinus Green Anaconda

E. notaeus Yellow Anaconda

If I forgot anything please add. I am deffinately going to write a (peaceful) letter because this is just outrageous. I'm counting on this not passing because I plan on breeding BP's but if it does this list will be needed.

I hope that the import portion of this policy passes. There is no reason to keep bringing in any wild caught snakes when there is already good size breeding pools here. I bet you solve a lot of care problems in stores fast when they can't buy wild caught or captive hatching balls for 5$-10$. Petco would stop selling ball pythons quick.

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Originally Posted by greenmonkey51

I hope that the import portion of this policy passes. There is no reason to keep bringing in any wild caught snakes when there is already good size breeding pools here. I bet you solve a lot of care problems in stores fast when they can't buy wild caught or captive hatching balls for 5$-10$. Petco would stop selling ball pythons quick.

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How would this be justifiable when many species, as well as sub-species, are not established in captivity yet? Sure it "could" solve the problem with captive hatched Ball Pythons, and other species, winding up in pet stores; but it hurts many more causes. Take the Southern African Rock, and Boelens Python for instance...

The boelen's python would not be affected.. it's Morelia.

I don't think they should restrict importation either though.. lots of our morphs come from Africa! It doesn't address the issue they're trying to solve here either.

I'd like to just address that EVERYONE who owns any kind of herp really needs to write in!!!

Today I faced off with a group of "snake lovers" who didn't own any kind of boa or python. When I brought this subject to their attention, there reaction was pretty much "oh well doesn't hurt us at all or our snakes...". I was so shocked! I told them if this gets passed, don't be surprised if your snakes are the next to be banned from being imported, sold, etc. Once they start calling you a criminal for wanting to privately own one type of animal, it's not long before they're going to move onto another. And then another and then another.

I could write a book about how unjust I feel most restrictive animal laws are, but to sum it up; I don't see how the government has a right to tell you what you can and cannot own in the privacy of your own home.

"I can see the day coming when even your home garden is gonna be against the law."
- Bob Dylan, 1983

Me too, Bob, me too.

I do not believe there should be a ban on ANY snake or import bans. It is true that some of our most beautiful morphs of ball python come from Africa and if there was to be an import ban, then we would never get to see what awsome snakes there could have been. I want to breed ball pythons and this will affect me greatly if it goes into effect. I have not commented yet but I will write something up tomorrow (I take my time writing something up because I want it to sound like I know what I'm talking about) and send it in. I will also talk to my family and friends about writing something up.

Seneschal - I LOVE your letter. I hope you don't mind but I edited and added to it for my own letters.. is this OK? You made excellent points and I couldn't have said it better, I just added a bit. Here it is:

To whom it may concern,
I am writing in response to the recent proposed bill regarding the Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera. I am highly concerned about the repercussions this bill will cause should it be passed. In addition to stifling the entrepreneurial nature of Americans with an interest in the reptiles addressed by the bill and thus causing the Unites States federal government to lose out on all of the sales and transportation taxes that are currently gained and will be in the future (assuming that the bill does not pas) it will also cause a great economical recession in multiple economies. Not only will import and export tariffs from the hundreds of thousands of imported and exported animals each year be lost, so too will the jobs of thousands of people both in our country and in Africa and South America. We will loose, in effect, an entire economy. The export and import of these animals is a major source of income for many people, and many businesses would go out of business without the ability to import and export these animals either within or without the United States. Additionally many businesses which breed in the United States and sell in the United States almost exclusively, but ship the animals out of state to make more sales, would suffer an enormous cut in profits, and would end up going out of business as well, possibly costing the federal government more money in social security and unemployment, and most certainly losing a great deal of money injected directly into the economy and stimulating it.

Not only are hobbyists and breeders and importers affected, so too will all retail stores featuring reptiles and reptile care equipment. When breeders are no longer able to transport between states, pet stores will no longer be able to carry many of the common species of python and boas and eunectes, because they will not be able to purchase the animals. Because they will not be able to sell the animals, many might cease to carry and sell much of the reptile based merchandise such as bedding, tanks, screen enclosures, heating elements, heat lamps, feeder rodents, heat cord, heat tape, flexwatt, mite treatment chemicals, cleaning chemicals, snake water bowls, misting equipment, humidifiers, thermometers, hygrometers, proportional thermostats, rack systems, tubs, rodent cages, rodent bedding, rodent water bottles, wooden climbing logs, snake hides, half-log hides, heat bulbs, electronic heat emitters, etc. Which make up a startlingly large portion of money directly injected into the pet economy. Because of the sudden, widespread, and drastic drop in sales, many companies which design and manufacture these products will go out of business or file for bankruptcy, and widespread downsizing will result in enormous job losses. These workers will have to search for more work in an economy already in recess, and will be spending less money themselves, further exacerbating the recent rise in home mortgages falling through as people are unable to make payments, causing interest rates to rise higher and for it to be more difficult for people to secure loans. Because there will not be a new economy to replace the old one centering around reptiles and the things necessary to keep them, these workers, business owners, breeders, and importers will most likely not be able to find a job very easily, furthering the rise in unemployment rates.

This law would also negatively affect the economy of various cities in the United States that rely in part on business generated from reptile shows and expos across the country. The reptile and herpetological society has a large impact on the community and these animals are gaining in popularity as pets as more breeders provide captive bred, socialized animals of rare color. The cost for some of these animals of rare colors, called "morphs" can be tremendous, they are worth a lot of money due to the difficulty and knowledge required in producing, raising, and maintaining them. Some of these animals can and do regularly cost and are purchased at prices exceeding ten, fifteen, and twenty thousand dollars. These are prized animals produced by experienced, responsible, and knowlegable breeders whose lives depend and revolve around these species and this community. Not to mention what it would cost to implement and enforce this law. I cannot begin to comprehend the expense, it would be tremendous, unneccessary, unwarranted, and ineffective.

There are very few species that get large enough to cause concern for human or other animal safety. Ball Pythons (Python Regius) Blood Pythons (Python Curtus Brongersmai, Python Curtus Breitensteini, Python Curtus Curtus) among others, along with most Boa species and types do not get large enough to kill or seriously harm a human. Most of these species do not get larger than eight feet in total length at adulthood. Ball Pythons rarely exceed five feet in length and are extremely popular as pets.

Reticulated Pythons(Python Reticulatus), the Anaconda species (Eunectes murinus, Eunectes notaeus, Eunectes Beniensis, Eunectes Deschauenseei), African Rock Python species (Python Sebae Sebae, Python Sebae Natalensis) Indian Python Species (Python Molurus) including the most popular large snake the Burmese Python (Python Molurus Bivittatus) and others that do get over twelve or fifteen feet on average and that can reach extreme lengths of twenty feet or more, should be regulated not only for the safety of the humans involved but for the good of the snakes as well. I do not believe that banning these animals will be effective or appropriate.

Most snakes not indigenous to the lower forty-eight states are incapable of surviving in the wild. Snakes require warm temperatures and humidity. My home state of Oregon would not sustain a wild population of large constricting species not indigenous to this area. The winters are too cold and the summers are too dry. Most of the states in the United States do not have climates that are conducive to the survival of these animals in the wild, either of the adults or of eggs resulting from escaped breeding age animals.

On the other hand, rather than banning the import, export, and trade of these animals, I would suggest that you seek to broaden the recent laws passed in Florida which require permits for keeping, breeding, and selling certain species. I will not deny that it is a problem when irresponsible owners release their animals into the wild. However, we in the herpetological community do not condone such behavior or keeping practices, and we do not engage in irresponsible ownership. We do our best to teach new reptile owners proper ways to care for and keep their pets in such a way that they will not escape nor overwhelm their owners with their size. We do not affiliate ourselves with the irresponsible few who are doing such things. We as a community feel that this law should not be passed. We as a community are eager to search for and find a better way than this, a way which will make everyone happy and which will result in a more educated public, fewer loose animals, a more stable and enriched economy, and no bans on our hobbies, our businesses, our passions, and our pets. Americans are better than this ban that’s being imposed, and moreover, all of us in the herpetological community want to strive to be better, for ourselves and for the sake of the animals.

I will say please let me know if I got any info wrong, I am not terribly schooled on most species that would be effected by this but did try to do some info seeking on those animals I know little about to determine average adult sizes and what not. I included a small list of specific species for affect though I know I did not include everything, I got tired of all the latin :D but let me know if I got anything wrong or should include other animals etc. This is my rough draft of Seneschals rough draft.

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Originally Posted by greenmonkey51

I hope that the import portion of this policy passes. There is no reason to keep bringing in any wild caught snakes when there is already good size breeding pools here. I bet you solve a lot of care problems in stores fast when they can't buy wild caught or captive hatching balls for 5$-10$. Petco would stop selling ball pythons quick.

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Agreed. Too bad they wouldn't also stop the cheap throw-away Russian tortoises brought in by the thousands every year.

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

I don't quite understand how ball pythons have been lumped into this.

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They really aren't lumped into this. It appears that way, but upon careful reading in the Federal Register, they state they are looking at species within these genera, not all species within those genera. Thus my opinion is the little guys are/will be excluded.

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What grounds to they have to say that ball pythons, and other small pythons/boas are a threat to the environment?

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Looking at the Burmese python issue, it appears rather arbitrary as to what species make it onto the Injurious Wildlife list and which don't. For example, Xenopus laevis. Those are established in several warm freshwater areas. They are clearly harmful to native wildlife. Like Burmese pythons, however, they cannot survive winters in most of the USA. Yet X. laevis is not on the Injurious Wildlife list.

Here is a letter from A guy named Ben Team it is well written and covers the good talking points on this issue. I am of the schools of thought that this is what should be put forward to USFW.

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To Whom It May Concern:

It has recently come to my attention that the USFW is considering adding snakes of the genera Python, Eunectes, and Boa to the list of injurious species and as such prohibiting their importation and inter-state commerce under the Lacey Act. This will affect the interstate commerce of between 20-25 species (depending on the taxonomic authority) of reptile that are commonly propagated in the United States for the pet trade. The addition of these species to the injurious species list is not warranted, and to do so would be a mistake both politically and economically.

The goal to protect our natural ecosystems and the wildlife therein is certainly one of the greatest responsibilities we have as citizens, elected officials, and wildlife officers. As an environmental educator and the Director of a non-profit nature center, my desire to protect the natural environment is well documented. However, the proposed actions will do little to help this goal, and in actuality may do significant damage to some of the ecosystems of concern.

I am sure your time is very valuable, and so I will list the reasons this is proposal is inappropriate below and try to be as brief as possible:

q The species targeted in this proposal are all of tropical or subtropical distribution. They do not possess adaptive capacity to survive freezing winter temperatures. They do not possess hibernating behaviors or physiology, and as such will perish upon exposure to freezing or near freezing temperatures. In the contiguous United States, only the southern most portion of Florida could realistically provide a suitable habitat for these species.
q All states already have legislation prohibiting the release of non-native species. This proposal would be redundant and over reaching. Proper enforcement of the current legislation would however, benefit all parties.
q The domestic captive propagation and interstate commerce of these species (and the equipment and food to maintain these and similar animals) is a multimillion-dollar industry. The keeping of snakes and other reptiles as pets is a positive, constructive hobby engaged in by millions of Americans, particularly young people. It fosters an appreciation for the natural world, and often accelerates an interest in Science and Mathematics.
q Were this proposal to be enacted, tens of thousands of animals would become worthless commodities to professional breeders. They would be unable to sell many of them if they were prohibited from engaging in interstate commerce. No doubt, thousands would make their way into our natural habitats. Now as stated above, those habitats with freezing winter temperatures would not be affected over the long term. However, the south Florida habitats would see thousands of discarded snakes added to the ecosystems. Ironically, this is the very problem that the proposal seeks to prevent.
q The proposal is seemingly arbitrary. The species included represent a broad variety of animals and life histories. Only a small handful of which grow to large sizes. Most of the species included in these genera do not exceed two meters in length and are incapable of causing serious harm to humans.
q This issue is local in nature, i.e. as Florida is the only state in the contiguous United States that could conceivably face challenges related to the release of these animals, it is an issue best handled by the States and not the Federal Government. Mandatory microchip implants (such as are used with Dogs and Cats) are one possible tool that the States could use to protect their interests. This would give the presiding authority a direct link to the party responsible for releasing the animal, with heavy fines charged to guilty parties. These monies could be used to help fund protection of these habitats through eradication efforts.
q This proposal is inherently un-enforceable. Many people will continue to maintain collections of these animals, and as the industry ventures underground, no enforceable measures will be available to address these valid concerns.

I appreciate the USFW service’s attempts at protecting our natural environments. This proposal however, is poorly conceived.

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I mailed my letter yesterday! Curious to see if we get "thank you" litrature in return from this on!?!?!

Just thought of a quick solution to the problem....just change all the taxonomic names of these species and do away with Python, Boa, and Eunectes!

heres my letter. what do i do with it?To Whom it may concern:

I am a young man beginning a career in breeding and selling Ball Pythons. Recently I have invested a large sum of money in the purchase of several Ball Pythons in order to breed and sell them nation wide. This has been a passion of mine for some time, and I seek to pursue a career in herpetology. If this ban is passed, there will be a major problem in the economics of the herping community. With this ban imposed many of the large national breeders who ship world wide will be forced to either release their snakes into the wild (which is what you do not want) or sell to the black market. Take into consideration all of the supplies sold by major retailers, such as Petco, and breeders all over the US. These supplies will no longer be sold and major tax dollars will decrease. In addition, the Ball Python that only grows up to 5 ft in length is a major stride in genetics. If you were to ban the selling of these beautiful snakes it would also be a major loss in the study of genetics. This is a snake that has been bred by many major breeders such as Adam Wysoki, Bob Clark, and many more to find many different color mutations and morphs using their knowledge of genetics.

Now I would like to apologize for those who have been irresponsible and releasing their large Burmese Pythons into the everglades. I understand they have been eating animals who are essential to that particular eco-system. This is a major problem for Florida as a whole. Florida is the only state in the US which it is possible for such an animal to survive, so it is unnecessary to impose this ban nation wide. It is not needed for it to be enforced in Florida. I feel that a simple solution is in order. For example, I believe that when a person goes to buy a larger snake such as a Burmese or Reticulated python, that the person purchasing the snake should fill out a simple husbandry care sheet, that asks questions like "how large will the snake get" or "what does tis snake need to eat". So I only ask that you please reconsider this decision and give the reptile community another chance to shape up and fly rite.
-Quinton Mendoza

do some edditing etc. what ever. thanks.

It is just my suggestion to leave anything about your hobby or how much money your snakes cost out. These letters are going to people who don't give a crap about our hobby and breeding and anything else we all do. I posted a letter a little further back in the thread written by a guy I have bought a few snakes from. It covers the sticking points the USFW will be looking at in dealing with this issue. I am sorry to bust on your letter, but I am just trying to help.


Chuck

I believe it is vital to present ones self as a legitimate business owner, who pays taxes and thus supports the economy through his business.

It is one thing to ban a hobby, it is another to attack the livelihoods of tax-paying Americans. Reinforce this fact (a fact those proposing the ban want to gloss over) and you might just open some eyes.

My 2 cents.

you know im so tempted to write them a "threatening" letter, but i think i'll cool my jets down first before thinking of what to write(it's how i am).

quick question though.....let's say the this new ban passes and i want to move out of state with my snakes....would i be able to bring them along or would i not be able to?

and i keep seeing people that are worried about them finding out about the electricity knowing that they have heat sources...what would they do if they found out you were keeping snakes like myself? would they take them away? fine me?

They're not banning keeping the snakes just traveling between states and imports. If you had to move states it wouldn't be that hard just to take them you. USFW would be more worried about breeders shipping out hundred of snakes, than a single family moving their pets. I've seen what USFW has done to dealers and it ain't pretty.

I really really hope we can beat this, this makes me very sad :(

Just a quick updated. I have not been able to get ahold of Erin as of yet with federal fish and wildlife, I'll try again today and update the boards if I do. I have talked with florida and they are going to get me numbers today or tomorrow on the total number of class 3 permits in the state plus a few other answers to a few questions....

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Originally Posted by greenmonkey51

They're not banning keeping the snakes just traveling between states and imports. If you had to move states it wouldn't be that hard just to take them you. USFW would be more worried about breeders shipping out hundred of snakes, than a single family moving their pets. I've seen what USFW has done to dealers and it ain't pretty.

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In many states certian types and lengh of snakes are banned/illegal to have. I know here in Baltimore(city) MD we have a ban on any snake that is over 5 feet. If this passes I'd hate to see what their next move is going to be, because it probably will be banning the keeping of snakes all together. Like someone said earlier on this thread, give them an inch -- they will take a mile. We really need to fight hard to get this not to pass!

I have spoken my piece in support of my reptile family!