Is it ok if my bp eats a live mouse, live?

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Snakes are made to kill and eat live prey. There really is no need to stun it.

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I understand that.. but after your snake is bitten you might want to pre-kill next time or feed f/t. I don't always have access to f/t so I pre kill. Of course not pinkies/fuzzies but larger mice and rats.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The ONLY time a rodent is going to come up and "GNAW on your snake at some point" is if you leave it in with your snake, unattended overnight with no access to food or water. A rodent doesn't go into an enclosure and go "oh, a snake, it hasn't eaten me, I think I'll go gnaw on it for the hell of it".

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Robin, that's besides the point. I was simply trying to make a point that the threat IS there, but whether or not it happens is another story.

I feed my snake both live and F/T. I agree it is highly up to the keeper to monitor the rodent to prevent bites, BUT you don't have to leave it unattended for it to happen. My girlfriends boa didn't strike one time, and the rat basically bum rushed her and started to bite at her. Luckily I was there to pull him out. But the fact is I was there..

This can't happen with F/T, therefore they're safer.

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Originally Posted by chz

Well it's not very hard to realize that a F/T doesn't produce nearly as much threat to a snake as a live mouse/rat. Cmon people.. I thought we were intellegent adults.

As for MeMe's comment on the size of the rodent, it doesn't really matter. If your snake isn't hungry, the rodent (regardless of size) is going to come up and knaw on your snake at some point. That alone is enough proof to say that F/T is safer.

The debate should be whether or not it is humane. And in my opinion the debate on that is completely subjective, because everyone stands on different moral grounds.

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Really.....really...

You see that is where 'responsible' feeding and 'pet ownership' comes into play...

If...by some SLIGHT chance I put a prey item in and the bp does NOT strike within the first couple minutes...as I SIT and WATCH....I pull it out.

I have never had a mouse/rat KNAW on any....of my snakes.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The ONLY time a rodent is going to come up and "GNAW on your snake at some point" is if you leave it in with your snake, unattended overnight with no access to food or water. A rodent doesn't go into an enclosure and go "oh, a snake, it hasn't eaten me, I think I'll go gnaw on it for the hell of it".

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In a way I disagree,
sometimes when you do watch your snake and do everything right the snake might grab it in a wrong way causing the rat/mice to bite.

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Originally Posted by chz

Robin, that's besides the point. I was simply trying to make a point that the THREAT is there, regardless of whether or not it happens is another story.

I feed my snake both live and F/T. I agree it is up to the keeper whether the snake gets bitten or not, but it DOES happen. It can't happen with F/T, therefore they're safer.

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How is that beside the point? You made the claim. F/T that is not properly thawed is not safer for your snake, it can actually rot in the stomach of your snake and kill it.

Feed what works for YOU - but arguements that one is safer than the other is just silly. I see no evidence of any inherent danger to feeding live when done correctly. I've fed over 2000 (probably closer to 3000 now) live prey with no incidence. I've said this before - even IF I had one injury in that number, the risk is less than .0005%. Your odds of being in a car accident are higher than that - does that prevent you from getting in a car because staying home would be safer?

Where's this inherent danger if myself and countless others who feed live responsibly don't have evidence of it in their experiences?

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

Really.....really...

You see that is where 'responsible' feeding and 'pet ownership' comes into play...

If...by some SLIGHT chance I put a prey item in and the bp does NOT strike within the first couple minutes...as I SIT and WATCH....I pull it out.

I have never had a mouse/rat KNAW on any....of my snakes.

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Watching a rodent doesn't always help. It has happened to me and countless others under direct supervision. Once you see it happen though, you kind of know what to watch for. If my snake hasn't coiled around it's prey when it is right next to it, I do all I can to get the prey out of the way.

Like I said earlier, my girlfriends boa was biten badly by a rat under my direct supervision, simply because he wasn't hungry at the time. It took all of 5 seconds for the rat to walk over and knaw on her.

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Originally Posted by chz

Watching a rodent doesn't always help. It has happened to me and countless others under direct supervision. Once you see it happen though, you kind of know what to watch for. If my snake hasn't coiled around it's prey when it is right next to it, I do all I can to get the prey out of the way.

Like I said earlier, my girlfriends boa was biten badly by a rat under my direct supervision, simply because he wasn't hungry at the time. It took all of 5 seconds for the rat to walk over and knaw on her.

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:gj:

I firmly believe that you are feeding an appropriate sized meal and watching the prey when you place it in the enclosure...you won't have a bite.

:rockon:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

:gj:

I firmly believe that you are feeding an appropriate sized meal and watching the prey when you place it in the enclosure...you won't have a bite.

:rockon:

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Once again I disagree...
Even if you do those things there is still a chance your snake will get bitten.. That doesn't mean I'm against live feeding, I think it's natural but theres always a chance it might happen, I bet even in the wild it does..

Paulina, many things occur in the wild that have no bearing on this discussion or on the captive care of snakes, it's a moot point.

As to live feeding and the possibility of a bite, I've seen this discussion touch on proper live feeding procedures and so forth - one thing it has not touched on is the prey itself (this is one of the places that understanding prey does pay off).

Rats raised humanely in conditions where they are not overcrowded and overstressed, have been fed appropriately, have access to water continuously are not inherently a dangerous prey animal. Since they have no exposure to a predator prior to their introduction into the snake's tub most rats do not react in a defensive/aggressive prey manner. I've watched countless rats that were born into my colony wander over to sniff at a snake, not even realizing this is in fact a predator. They've been so long in captivity, so long without any predator experience that most captive colony rats have no real clue what that snake is and what "danger" it presents.

If you've got an aggressive biting rat as one poster mentioned, I'd put money on it that it came out of a pet store feeder bin or was itself in a poor/hungry/stressed/dehydrated condition prior to being fed off. This is not what a live prey animal should be and understanding that is just another way to ensure a safe and trouble free live feeding experience.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

Once again I disagree...
Even if you do those things there is still a chance your snake will get bitten.. That doesn't mean I'm against live feeding, I think it's natural but theres always a chance it might happen, I bet even in the wild it does..

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What exactly is your point?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

What exactly is your point?

:confused:

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My point is... you say that if you do everything right the snake will not get bit (at least in your post)
I said that even if you do everything right, a snake can still get bitten.
Get it now?

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

My point is... you say that if you do everything right the snake will not get bit (at least in your post)

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Noooo....this is what I said...

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I firmly believe that if you are feeding an appropriate sized meal and watching the prey when you place it in the enclosure...you won't have a bite.

:rockon:

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See..that is MY observations based on MY experiences which is MY belief.

:gj:

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

Get it now?

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I am detecting a lil hostility...correct me if I am wrong.

:hmm:

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

I am detecting a lil hostility...correct me if I am wrong.

:hmm:

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Nope, no hostility at all.

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Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

We tried humane traps for our pantry mice, but discovered that they just came running back in the house. We only went to inhumane methods once I couldn't stand the 3 a.m. gnawing that kept me awake. It's too bad we can't give "wild" mice to our BP. Then two problems would be solved.

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Someone may have already said this... I haven't finished all 12 pages of this thread yet!

But, you can avoid the problem of the same mice coming back in by releasing them a few miles from your house.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Snakes are made to kill and eat live prey. There really is no need to stun it.

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Cats are made to kill and eat mice and birds.
I still feed mine commercial cat food. It is a pet, not a wild animal living in the wild.
I do not feed live mice to my cat, even though she is perfectly equipped to quickly kill them, and it's natural for her. To do so would be considered incredibly barbaric. Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by chz

Like I said earlier, my girlfriends boa was biten badly by a rat under my direct supervision, simply because he wasn't hungry at the time. It took all of 5 seconds for the rat to walk over and knaw on her.

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Not to say this didn't happen... however the odds of this happening are slim. As Jo stated, there is no reason for a healthy rat to attack a snake within such a short period of time. Unless the snake made an unsuccessful strike and made the prey aware of it's intentions, or the prey is incredibly malnourished (and isn't suitable food for a snake anyways), there is no reason for a prey to go up and start knawwing on a snake after only a few seconds... 999/1000'ths of the horror stories come from snake owners who left their snake with a live prey, unattended, for an extended period of time.

Then... accounting for the lucky scratch or bite the prey MAY get in... Snakes happen to have their own form of body armor, called scales, that after 2-3 sheds, repairs most of these "damages". However the chances of this happening is also very slim, as snakes have evolved into very skilled and efficient hunters. There are many keepers, who have feed off THOUSANDS of mice, who have never had an incident. There are likely just as many problems with people who do not de-frost their prey enough while feeding F/T. Or they stick 'em in a micorwave to quicken the process and end up cooking the prey, and lessining it's nutritional value... or "re-freezing" them after an successful feed only to provide a home for bacteria that will make their homes in the belly of a snake at a later point. Not to say any of these are too common, but then again, neither are bites/scratches in properly monitered live feedings. Which brings it all down to choice. What works for you, and what works for your snake. As long as your responsible and take care in preperation of feeding, either process should be virtually problem free.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cats are made to kill and eat mice and birds.
I still feed mine commercial cat food. It is a pet, not a wild animal living in the wild.
I do not feed live mice to my cat, even though she is perfectly equipped to quickly kill them, and it's natural for her. To do so would be considered incredibly barbaric. Something to think about.

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Depends on who you ask... there are quite a few people who feed german shepards live bunnies... not that I support the practice, which I personnaly don't, seeing as I have yet to find a german shepard that will not eat commercially available dog food, but it IS done.

good post Ben.

:gj:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cats are made to kill and eat mice and birds.
I still feed mine commercial cat food. It is a pet, not a wild animal living in the wild.
I do not feed live mice to my cat, even though she is perfectly equipped to quickly kill them, and it's natural for her. To do so would be considered incredibly barbaric. Something to think about.

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This would be the thinking that lead some brilliant tool over at T-Rex to promote "snake sausages" as a viable feeding alternative for pet snakes.

Snakes are not cats nor dogs, snakes are not domesticated, fully tamed "pets", they have not been in contact with human beings in a pet role for the eons of times both cats and dogs have. Cats though are still very much the hunter. Many cats to this day fill roles in barns all over the world as rodent control, my own pet cat did a mouse patrol quite regularily...nothing at all "barbaric" about it (she was of course fully vacinated, wormed and so forth).

Using the cat or dog model isn't going to work...they simply are not the same as snakes. Also there is a lot of evidence out there that the way we feed cats and dogs in our homes has lead to an incredible decline in their general health, fitness levels, temperment, etc. - making them even less of a " good role model" of how to feed a snake.

Oh, I was wondering... I think there was a post about this somewhere..
Is it natural for hamsters to eat mice and crickets??? Like in the wild..

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

This would be the thinking that lead some brilliant tool over at T-Rex to promote "snake sausages" as a viable feeding alternative for pet snakes.

Snakes are not cats nor dogs, snakes are not domesticated, fully tamed "pets", they have not been in contact with human beings in a pet role for the eons of times both cats and dogs have. Cats though are still very much the hunter. Many cats to this day fill roles in barns all over the world as rodent control, my own pet cat did a mouse patrol quite regularily...nothing at all "barbaric" about it (she was of course fully vacinated, wormed and so forth).

Using the cat or dog model isn't going to work...they simply are not the same as snakes. Also there is a lot of evidence out there that the way we feed cats and dogs in our homes has lead to an incredible decline in their general health, fitness levels, temperment, etc. - making them even less of a " good role model" of how to feed a snake.

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Originally Posted by Rep Troll

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to frankykeno again.

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:rockon:

i also read a report awhile back that said something along the lines of how we, snake keepers, should feed our snakes moistened dog food instead of mice/rats.... :banned1:

So, what you're leading to is, we should feed our dogs and cats live rodents? <lol>

Of course, this could be much simpler.
What do zoos do?

They have access to the best husbandry advice, specialized exotic animal veterinarians, and they presumeably know what they're doing.

So, how do zoos feed their snakes?

The simple logic factor here....dead rodents cannot bite. Live rodents, unless you have dressed them up with little masks like Hannibal Lector, CAN bite. You may never have it happen, but they can. That RISK is what makes live feeding not as safe. It's not a certainty--it's a RISK. A risk that doesn't exist with dead prey.

Also, I have had a hand-tame young rat run up and bite a snake upon being introduced to the cage. Rats can be very aggressive animals, and it has nothing to do with their health or current environment, or how they react around humans or other rats.

The idea that a properly raised, healthy, naive rodent will never attack a snake is simply false. You won't know how the individual rodent will react until you introduce it to the cage.

I'm not quite sure how it is that someone intends to prevent a bite if their snake grabs a rodent the wrong way. The strike is lightning fast, the rodent is coiled, and that is the precise moment that the rodent bites--how are you going to stop it? I'm really interested in hearing that, there might be some means of preventing a bit from a bad strike that I'm not aware of.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonsRule

Oh, I was wondering... I think there was a post about this somewhere..
Is it natural for hamsters to eat mice and crickets??? Like in the wild..

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I'm not sure about hamsters but rats in a captive colony do enjoy the ability to hunt live prey such as crickets. As they are omnivores by nature it is well within their dietary range as well. It can be a way to provide a captive rat with some stimuli that may be missing in it's daily caged life. This can be equated in a lesser manner to some of the enrichment programs that zoo's undertake to provide their animals with a variety of feeding routines wherein they must "hunt" for food. This stimulates them, engages them in the process and is a quite good thing for them.

It's unlikely that hamsters eat mice, but rats certainly will kill them.
I suppose, in some rare instance, a hamster might come across a mouse nest and eat the young. Rodents are opportunists.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cats are made to kill and eat mice and birds.
I still feed mine commercial cat food. It is a pet, not a wild animal living in the wild.
I do not feed live mice to my cat, even though she is perfectly equipped to quickly kill them, and it's natural for her. To do so would be considered incredibly barbaric. Something to think about.

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Where did cats come from in this discussion? Many people have cats in hopes they keep away mice some don't but a few do. Your cat is still a carnivore and the kibble you feed it is made from meat.

It would be barbaric to feed it mice, since for a while now probably around 100 years people have been feeding kibble to their dogs and cats. You know what they fed pets before kibble? Meat, raw meat. If I could feed my snake mouse kibble I would. Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Rats can be very aggressive animals, and it has nothing to do with their health or current environment, or how they react around humans or other rats.

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Very circular and convenient logic you use. First you believe that reptiles with their more simplistic basic brains CAN be affected by circumstance and selective breeding, then you state as a fact that rats are "very aggressive" and their health or current environment has "nothing" to do with how they react. Now I'll accept a possibility, I will not accept this as a fact.

I have generations of rats that have been selectively bred for good temperment as do a lot of fancy/show rat breeders and feeder breeders - with the belief through research and experience that temperment in rats is somewhat genetic. Temperment in rats is also affected by their "current environment". You cannot state as fact that a social animal, with a reasonably functional brain cannot be stressed to the point of aggressive behaviours through lack of proper care, lack of proper food or dehydration.

In watching this live vs. F/t debate rage on what I notice is the main "get" for the F/T crowd is the assumption of "safety" (from a perceived bite potential). This seems to be their big argument but without proof that feeding live is dangerous to the animal what is really being said is "it is more convenient for me the herper - not a proven benefit to my animal".


Lets address this "safety" question- what about the loss of nutrients, proteins, vitamins and minerals that are lost when you freeze ANY type of meat? You cannot argue this FACT that by feeding Frozen and thawed prey items you are feeding "less" to your prized pet (how long they sit in your freezer and the place you bought them from's the worse they get). There is an entire thread about the poor quality of F/T animals that people have purchased (having urine and crap in their coats - wonder what they were fed before they were frozen?) There is also more risk of bacterial infections from F/T animals. Salmonila (sp?) and others nasties can develop extremely quick (just look at all the warning lables on chicken these days)...so you are potentially feeding a diseased prey item to your snake. Or if you don't get them warm enough you could be feeding a still frozen or too cold item to your cold blooded animal and causing even more issues.

So to say that F/T is safer is just plain wrong and has ZERO basis in fact.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm not quite sure how it is that someone intends to prevent a bite if their snake grabs a rodent the wrong way. The strike is lightning fast, the rodent is coiled, and that is the precise moment that the rodent bites--how are you going to stop it? I'm really interested in hearing that, there might be some means of preventing a bit from a bad strike that I'm not aware of.

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This is where watching until the rodent is dead comes into play. I've had my girl grab the rat by the back end, or grab it funny before. The only time I've had a problem, I took a pair of plastic tongs and up them up to the rat. It then knawed of that, and my snake was unharmed. The rat did initially get ahold of my snake, but that's what scales are for, and it didn't do any damage. To keep it from causing damage, I simply gave it something else to bite until it had passed. Yeah, a snake can be hurt from feeding live, but if you watch, and pay attention, you can prevent things like that from happening.

i don't know if it has been touched in this thread already?:confused:


but for me, pre-scenting the room and getting everyone in "feeding mode" works wonders.:D

after a while you get to know your snakes, you can probably tell which ones aren't going to eat that day. :hungry: :clap: :chew: :tongue2: :mouse2: :snake2:



vaughn

I feed my snake rabid cinchillas and have never had a problem :D

Everyone has there own way and when done CORRECTLY is very sake.

Not everyone does things correctly and problems arise.

There have been threads on rodent size too. When you feed smaller rodents your snakes do not hesitate and kill rodent on impact. You feed to large a rodent you snake gets fat, feeding response is not good and lager prey can hurt your snake.

I like to know that my snakes are feeding healthy, well feed disease free rodents which one can only tell when they are live.

F/T is fine but feeding live correctly is fine too. The problem is what many think is correct varies. Sickly, freezer burned, unthawed rodents can cause problems too.


What ever you feed do it correctly and you will be fine,

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Originally Posted by tweets_4611

The rat did initially get ahold of my snake, but that's what scales are for, and it didn't do any damage.

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Scales aren't as tough as your fingernails, and a rodent can bite through metal if it has a mind to.
If your snake wasn't harmed by the bite, that's lucky, but what you said proves my point--the rat bit your snake before you were able to intervene. That your snake was uninjured by the bite is more a matter of luck.
I don't personally feel that even a minor bite is acceptable, and I do all I can to avoid it.
If frozen animals were less nutritious than live, then zoos wouldn't be feeding them.
Likewise, if the issue with f/t is nutrition, then fresh pre-killed prey is the safest way to feed.

Also, the question on 'what is so inhumane about natural predator/prey relationships'...that's a silly question. There's nothing natural about feeding a live rodent to a pet snake. A natural predator/prey relationship occurs in the wild, not in your living room in a plastic tub with you standing by to try to save the predator from a bite if the prey turns mean.

Humane: marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering.
What is inhumane about feeding a live rodent to a snake when you have a choice? You are facilitating suffering. The rodent doesn't die painlessly or without distress, and it's your fault.
If you're ok with that, then fine. But don't pretend that the rodents aren't suffering, or that it's not your fault that they do, when you have other options for feeding your snake. That's simply dishonest. Your snake may be doing the 'dirty work', but the RESPONSIBILITY is still yours.

My concerns with live feeding have nothing to do with what's humane, because the brief amount of distress the rodents suffer before they are eaten doesn't bother me. I prefer to kill them instantly, because there's no need to cause suffering uneccessarily, but my primary problem with live feeding is that rodents bite snakes. I wonder if some of the smaller bites are simply going unnoticed by the folks who are feeding live regularly. A snake's scales don't offer any protection from a rodent's teeth at all. They offer some minor protection from scratches, that's about it.
All I can guess is that the folks who are feeding live all the time are either missing the small bites, or they're just extraordinarily lucky, since so many of the rest of us have had snakes be bitten even with us hovering with tongs in hand to try and prevent it.
Why take such a risk? I simply doing understand the reasoning behind it.

Feeding live is not the only way to ensure that the prey animals are healthy.
Pre-killing works just as well for that.
So does freezing rodents you raised yourself. That has to do with the source of your feeders, not with their state at the time you feed them. If you buy live feeder from somewhere, you might see obviously sick animals, but for the rest, you won't know what they've been eating, or their overall state of health.

Can anyone explain why NOT to prekill to eliminate the risk of a bite? Other than rather odd statements about what's natural for snakes that are living in plastic tubs on the other side of the world from their native habitat, of course.

All I can see in this is a group of people saying that if done properly, live feeding is safe...and another group of people with a ton of anecdotes about feeding live properly, and having their snakes bitten. Either feeding live properly is something that requires a lot of skill and possibly an apprenticeship to accomplish, or it's just not that safe after all.

Then there's something about how frozen/thawed is dangerous if done improperly. Any feeding method is dangerous if done improperly, that was never the question.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Can anyone explain why NOT to prekill to eliminate the risk of a bite?

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Because FOR ME, after feeding live rodents to hundreds and hundreds of ball pythons every week for years and year, I am confident in my abilities to feed my animals without the risk of a bite ... so FOR ME, there is absolutely no need to pre-kill anything.

Just because one person may or may not believe that there is a "risk" to feeding live prey to ball pythons doesn't mean that everyone should have to or not have to believe that.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Of course, this could be much simpler.
What do zoos do?

They have access to the best husbandry advice, specialized exotic animal veterinarians, and they presumeably know what they're doing.

So, how do zoos feed their snakes?

The simple logic factor here....dead rodents cannot bite. Live rodents, unless you have dressed them up with little masks like Hannibal Lector, CAN bite. You may never have it happen, but they can. That RISK is what makes live feeding not as safe. It's not a certainty--it's a RISK. A risk that doesn't exist with dead prey.

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We mainly feed pre-killed rodents at the Knoxville Zoo but we will also feed live if it were needed, no risk at all if you do it responsibly. The main reason we feed p/k is not because it is "less risk for the snake" but mainly for the public. We dont want a small child to see a snake constrict a live mouse/rat or a venomous snake to strike a live rodent and the public watch the process of how the venom works.

As for me, I feed everything from live to pre-killed to frozen, ive never had a problem with live feeding.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If frozen animals were less nutritious than live, then zoos wouldn't be feeding them.

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That is a big assumption. Using similar logic, one could assume that if formula were less nutritious than breastmilk, then mother's wouldn't feed it to their babies. Or if the canning process causes vegetables to lose a large percentage of their vitamin content, people would always eat fresh veggies. Or if Big Macs were really bad for you, then no one would eat them and McDonald's would go out of business.

But the fact is people don't always do what is best. Sometimes people do things because they think it is best. Maybe they don't know there is an alternative, or they are misinformed about the issue. Sometimes people do things because it is the only way they know how. Even if they know other choices exist and are better, they may be afraid to try them, or feel they can't for some reason. Sometimes people do things because they are more convenient. Sometimes people do things because they think the risk is worth it, or the downside is negligible. That's just the way it is.

Personally, I'd rather see fewer of these lengthy debates on this forum. I think we all realize that no one is going to get everyone to agree, and by now most of us pretty much know who stands where on the issue. But often when reading these threads I get the feeling that some people feel that they have to get the last word in. Why? Do you (generic you, not talking to anyone in particular) really think you are going to convince everyone? Get them to admit you are right? Get them to change what they do?

I think most, if not all of the people posting, would agree that when done properly, the risks of any feeding method are reasonably small, both in how often a problem will occur, and how big the problem will be. So why not spend all that time and energy emphasizing how to be as safe as possible with whatever feeding method each person chooses?

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Originally Posted by kc261

That is a big assumption. Using similar logic, one could assume that if formula were less nutritious than breastmilk, then mother's wouldn't feed it to their babies. Or if the canning process causes vegetables to lose a large percentage of their vitamin content, people would always eat fresh veggies. Or if Big Macs were really bad for you, then no one would eat them and McDonald's would go out of business.

But the fact is people don't always do what is best. Sometimes people do things because they think it is best. Maybe they don't know there is an alternative, or they are misinformed about the issue. Sometimes people do things because it is the only way they know how. Even if they know other choices exist and are better, they may be afraid to try them, or feel they can't for some reason. Sometimes people do things because they are more convenient. Sometimes people do things because they think the risk is worth it, or the downside is negligible. That's just the way it is.

Personally, I'd rather see fewer of these lengthy debates on this forum. I think we all realize that no one is going to get everyone to agree, and by now most of us pretty much know who stands where on the issue. But often when reading these threads I get the feeling that some people feel that they have to get the last word in. Why? Do you (generic you, not talking to anyone in particular) really think you are going to convince everyone? Get them to admit you are right? Get them to change what they do?

I think most, if not all of the people posting, would agree that when done properly, the risks of any feeding method are reasonably small, both in how often a problem will occur, and how big the problem will be. So why not spend all that time and energy emphasizing how to be as safe as possible with whatever feeding method each person chooses?

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One of the best posts that I've read on this site since joining 4+ years ago ... Thank you!

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

One of the best posts that I've read on this site.

-adam

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ditto that junks.

:cool: