ECLARK - mites

Common Ed. Lets get this fixed up, so we can have our good old forum back to normal.:crix:

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Originally Posted by stangs13

In this forum we value Ed as much as Adam!! Adam springs up with new info more than Ed. But Ed deffanatly posts more pictures than Adam!! And Info and pictures is part of waht makes this forum complete!!:rockon:

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Pictures dont make up for mite infested snakes though.

I'd rather hear/read/learn more in BP's then see pictures of morphs. JMO

See, the good thing about telling the truth is you never have to remember what you said before. A lesson Ed would do good to take heed to.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

In this forum we value Ed as much as Adam!! Adam springs up with new info more than Ed. But Ed deffanatly posts more pictures than Adam!! And Info and pictures is part of waht makes this forum complete!!:rockon:

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This is NOT about Adam Vs. Ed. This is about a very serious problem that Ed has chosen not to address. Leave Adam or any other breeder out of it, and quit deflecting attention from an issue that Ed has and has not addressed. I'm also very disturbed about the "joke" (which isn't very funny) about "the gift that keeps on giving".

And yet, I still don't see anything that Ed has offered to April to make her happy about this transaction.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

In this forum we value Ed as much as Adam!! Adam springs up with new info more than Ed. But Ed deffanatly posts more pictures than Adam!! And Info and pictures is part of waht makes this forum complete!!:rockon:

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Ed is 99% in the "for sale section" Adam has never posted in that section. How can someone who only is here to move high volumes of snakes compare to someone who is here only to lend his experience to us?

Again this is NOT about Ed vs Adam or anyone vs anyone people. Let's not go there and let's try to stay on topic. There's been serious concerns raised about quarantine, about the spread of mites and now about truthfulness in PM vs in this thread. Let's see that dealt with please.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

In this forum we value Ed as much as Adam!! Adam springs up with new info more than Ed. But Ed deffanatly posts more pictures than Adam!! And Info and pictures is part of waht makes this forum complete!!:rockon:

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Please lets not make this into a me vs. Ed Clark issue ... I'm just a guy that is having fun raising and breeding snakes ... no better than anyone else ... I only posted in this thread because I wanted to share that it is possible to maintain a very large collection and not ever see a mite. Nothing else here concerns me or interests me ... I'd appreciate it if my name was left out of it.

Thanks.

-adam

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Just a little solid info here on mites folks....(thanks to VPI but the bolding is my addition)...

The protonymph stage lasts from three days to two weeks. This stage is mobile and may move considerable distances. Protonymphs are able to detect and are attracted by the smell of snakes. They require a blood meal to metamorphose to the next stage. Unfed protonymphs are pale ivory or yellowish in color, and they are almost invisible to the naked eye. The sharp-eyed, observant keeper may notice pale protonymphs walking across scale surfaces, especially on a snake's head plates. When engorged after a blood meal, protonymphs are dark red, smaller than adult females and not black in color.

Since obviously this is the stage in the life cycle of a mite that it is most "visible" and seen easily by the naked eye, then how do you explain not seeing something that can be around for "3 days to 2 weeks" on a snake you are shipping out to customer or in that snake's enclosure or in an enclosure in that rack.

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I'm not sure if maybe you read that paragraph hastily? I added the red colouring...

Either way, I'm a little worried and I'd like to see something from Ed to reassure me that my pinstripe isn't going to come in buggy...

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Heres the problem with the mites in 1 of my baby racks. I bought a pair of ball python morphs for myself to keep that came from BHB in Michigan about a week and a half ago. gave them a quick soaking then put them into one of my baby racks. I hear today that I sent a ball python to april with mites. was a little surprised because I have never had mites and normally treat everything I buy before its put away. did not expect this coming from Brian Barczyk. long story short, spent the afternoon totally cleaning the rack that had mites in it including new tubs, bedding and scrubbing down the rack with hot soapy bleach water then spraying everything down with Provent-A-Mite. cant remember the last time having mites because I stay on top of it, just goes to show that it can happen to us all and we need to keep a watchful eye. I can assure you it wont happen to me again. :)


Crazydog, Sorry Dude, dont know you and have NEVER sold you a snake!

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Maybe because Crazydog is not my real name.

Thanks for jumping back in here Shelby. Though there have been multiple issues here I am a firm believer in waiting to see how things are handled. The lack of service you recieved after your complaint speaks volumes.
Ed, as someone who has a transaction in the works with you this is cause for concern and I see by Steve's earlier posts that I'm not the only one.

Thanks Shelby for posting the emails.
Look everyone of us on here ( well at least I think ) is human and we all make mistakes or have done things we regret.
Shelby gave Ed a chance to make it right and to post on his own about this and then warned him if he didn't then she would. It is time for him to man up and do the right thing.
I think it has been made clear about his qurantine or lack there of. It has been made clear about the knowing or lack of knowing about the mites.

Lets not make this into a long hash rehash let's bash Ed thread. I think it has been well covered. Time for him to man up and if he doesn't I think anyone who was or is thinking of buying from him can make a mature informed choice.

It is already heading down that ugly thread road with folks taking sides, comparing this to that and him to he. The purpose of the thread I do think was to inform us of the mites and business practices of a seller/breeder. I think this thread has coverd that well.The only person Ed has to be accountable to is Shelby and anyone else who is or has purchased a snake from him.
To ask him to be grilled and interrogated by all of us is a tad over the top.
Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

Maybe because Crazydog is not my real name.

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Your input into this discussion will bear a lot more weight if you don't play games with Internet anonymity. Anyone can play such word games to make someone else look bad.

Ed....the way I see it, there are three serious issues on the table.

1. Someone who brings in and sells multiple animals on a frequent basis and does not practice strict quarantine.... true or false?

2. Someone who pays little enough attention to the animals he owns and supposedly even hatched and raised as to notice a serious mite infestation the moment the snake was picked up and put in the bag.... true or false?

3. Someone who has so little regard for his customers that he would be flippant about a serious problem and blow off any attempt to make it right. Actually...had you taken the matter seriously and immediately asked what steps April would like to see made in order to make the matter right for her....the other two issues would never have come to light..... true or false?

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

Maybe because Crazydog is not my real name.

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If your going to tell about your experiences fine.......but it seems to me that your not saying anything............Whats your real name, and what do you have to add!

"Your input into this discussion will bear a lot more weight if you don't play games with Internet anonymity. Anyone can play such word games to make someone else look bad."

Understood, But if i have to put my name out there i'm going to put everything on the table. And post every e-mail that he sent me dealing with our little problem.

My problem was fixed. But to come on here and act like this was the first time is wrong.

Now if i have to dance i will!

if you dont what to get to involve then maybe you can at least enlighten everyone on how your problem was handled..just my:2cent: was it aleast to your satisfaction?

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

"Your input into this discussion will bear a lot more weight if you don't play games with Internet anonymity. Anyone can play such word games to make someone else look bad."

Understood, But if i have to put my name out there i'm going to put everything on the table. And post every e-mail that he sent me dealing with our little problem.

My problem was fixed. But to come on here and act like this was the first time is wrong.

Now if i have to dance i will!

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

My problem was fixed.

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If you are satisfied with your business deal then I would consider the matter closed. However, if you have information relevant to this topic that you wish to share, then I suggest that you do so without further games and let the other party know ahead of time that you are going to do so.

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

Understood, But if i have to put my name out there i'm going to put everything on the table. And post every e-mail that he sent me dealing with our little problem.

My problem was fixed. But to come on here and act like this was the first time is wrong.

Now if i have to dance i will!

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If you want your words to mean anything, then you should back them up. That's all I'm saying. So, if you want to back them up, then go ahead. I'm not making you...nor even asking you. It's entirely up to you.

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Originally Posted by JLC

If you want your words to mean anything, then you should back them up. That's all I'm saying. So, if you want to back them up, then go ahead. I'm not making you...nor even asking you. It's entirely up to you.

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I'm trying to fair and have sent a pm and have a phone call out to Ed. If he says it's o.k to post the e-mails then so be it.

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

I'm trying to fair and have sent a pm and have a phone call out to Ed. If he says it's o.k to post the e-mails then so be it.

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Fair enough.

hey everyone. i think we might want to think to move this to the quarentine section. i know most of you will say its a bad idea because we are "concerned" and nothing is going on here that is "bad", but obviously, there are many situations in this thread that are making people uncomfortable to contribute. i am sure Ed has read this thread and will most likely take it into consideration. we have all stated our opinions. lets not try to make this thread ugly... i love this website and im proud to be part of this community, so on that note, lets all take out our bp, hug them, and remember why we joined this website :D

:rockon:

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Originally Posted by adi

hey everyone. i think we might want to think to move this to the quarentine section. i know most of you will say its a bad idea because we are "concerned" and nothing is going on here that is "bad", but obviously, there are many situations in this thread that are making people uncomfortable to contribute. i am sure Ed has read this thread and will most likely take it into consideration. we have all stated our opinions. lets not try to make this thread ugly... i love this website and im proud to be part of this community, so on that note, lets all take out our bp, hug them, and remember why we joined this website :D

:rockon:

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I AGREE!

Good Thread - Very Imformative :rockon:

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Originally Posted by adi

hey everyone. i think we might want to think to move this to the quarentine section.

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The staff has discussed this already and believe the thread should be left as is. Given the general nature of these sorts of threads, this one is actually rather tame...and we'd rather give Ed every possible chance to respond without mucking around with the original thread. While it may not be entirely pleasant...it IS relevant to BP.net as a whole.

ok understood-just thought it would be an option for those who get sucked into these thing too easily :P

night everyone

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Originally Posted by JLC

The staff has discussed this already and believe the thread should be left as is. Given the general nature of these sorts of threads, this one is actually rather tame...and we'd rather give Ed every possible chance to respond without mucking around with the original thread. While it may not be entirely pleasant...it IS relevant to BP.net as a whole.

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I think it is important to leave it where it is so others can see.

I was just stating that if Adams animals had a mite(whitch they dont) they would get just as much attention as Eds are. Adam isn't better than Ed. And Ed isn't better than Adam. We were all created equal.

I should have used breeders in general. But Talk to Matt about it, he brought it up.

No problem Adam, I wont use your name again in this thread.

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Originally Posted by stangs13

I was just stating that if Adams animals had a mite(whitch they dont) they would get just as much attention as Eds are. Adam isn't better than Ed. And Ed isn't better than Adam. We were all created equal.

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Adam's quarantine and business model is worlds better. I also have no doubt that Adam would have bent over backwards to make sure that his customer had satisfactory resolution, which Ed has not done, according to April. Just saying.

Quality vs. Quantity, Justin.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

This is one of the only worries I had about Ed and reselling animals. I have never bought animals from Ed and have never asked him about his quarantine procedures... but it scares me in the same way that it would scare me to buy an animal from a pet store. Quarantine isn't in place because for many resellers there isn't time to do it. Anyone with a fast-moving inventory is something to be cautious of.

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BINGO!!

I'm not surprised to hear he doesn't have quarantine procedures in place.

I think it's a little unfair to Adam to be throwing his name around in this thread as he has stated he does not wish to be involved in this, but I do believe that those who wish to sell their snakes should properly quarantine their snakes. As this thread will never in any way affect my collection I don't wish to get involved in the specifics of it, but I do think this is a big deal seeing as there are boas in the collection we are talking about so those who say that they are not worried should think again about the possible problems caused by this. As there are no dead snakes yet, I'm not really sure what type of compensation some are calling for, but that's between the parties involved. Also seeing as this has not become too terribly lynch mob-like I don't see too much of a problem with this thread remaining unlocked, although I do believe that since there has been no response that speaks worlds, and this issue although unresolved has been properly aired out.

My Response;

Robin and a few others have accused me numerous times of not having any quarantine procedures in place, thats wrong and it is not true. I purchased some ball pythons from a big name breeder and was lulled into complacency thinking that there was no need to seperate this from the others for a period of time. I was very wrong about that and that will never happen again. :mad:

I had a small mite problem in a few tubs in a 20 unit baby rack that was quickly treated and completely eliminated!

I have produced 1000's of baby snakes and never had a problem with mites. 1 snake with mites and some of you are already calling me a bad guy.

Allison stated that I dont quarantine ALL the snakes that I buy to resell, I produce most of the snakes I sell. I do trade some of my high end Balls for lower priced Ball morphs that I dont breed to have a better selection of snakes to offer my customers......but Im rethinking that and more than likely will only be selling what I produce in the future.

April, I am sincerly sorry for sending you a snake with mites and it was not my intention to do so. :oops:

As in the past you can be confident that you will recieve a mite free snake from me! ;)

Crazydog, If you are calling me a bad guy.......Time to Dance!

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Originally Posted by CrazyDog

"Your input into this discussion will bear a lot more weight if you don't play games with Internet anonymity. Anyone can play such word games to make someone else look bad."

Understood, But if i have to put my name out there i'm going to put everything on the table. And post every e-mail that he sent me dealing with our little problem.

My problem was fixed. But to come on here and act like this was the first time is wrong.

Now if i have to dance i will!

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EXACTLY, let my guard down and it bit me in the ace!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Quarantine!!!!!

However breeders tend to gain a comfort level with one another and tend to have confidants in them. So they tend to just expect that they shouldn't have too. But it just goes to show you that you can never be to carefull.

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Everything is in seperate rooms. baby room, stuff for sale is another room and the main collection is like a no mans land. there is no way that if something like this happens that it could infect everything!

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Originally Posted by stangs13

But how many people have boughten from him without a complaint?! Hundreds! Maybe even thousands!! I still think he should separate, just becasue I am paranoid. Mike is a PRO!! He knows what he is doing.

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Robin and a few others have accused me numerous times of not having any quarantine procedures in place, thats wrong and it is not true.

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I purchased some ball pythons from a big name breeder and was lulled into complacency thinking that there was no need to seperate this from the others for a period of time.

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Maybe that is me and my English but isn't it contradictory.

One sentence you claim that you are falsely accused of not having quarantine, the other sentence you admit you did not quarantine those snakes.:confuzd:

Steve, it is common practice to ship more than 1 snake in a LARGE cloth bag. everyone has there own way of doing it, if you want to ship 1 to a bag.....dont criticise others for the way they do it.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

Well then I must be an amateur because I would NEVER send out a box with more than one snake per bag or deli cup and would be very ticked if I recieved animals that way no matter WHO sent them.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Crazydog, If you are calling me a bad guy.......Time to Dance!

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Crazydog - he just gave you his permission. I think if you are saying that you received mites from Ed, it is pertinent to this conversation, because it shows that this is not an isolated incident.

Ed, you still haven't answered why you told April you got mites from rats, but told the forum you got them from BHB?

Very strict quarantine procedures have ALWAYS been in place, if you reread my post it says I let my guard down on those snakes because I completly trusted the source and paid the price! I will never trust a snake from anyone after this.

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Originally Posted by GA_Ball_Pythons

Maybe that is me and my English but isn't it contradictory.

One sentence you claim that you are falsely accused of not having quarantine, the other sentence you admit you did not quarantine those snakes.:confuzd:

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Has anyone notified Brian Barczyk about this thread? He should at least have the option of replying to the implications that he is sending out mite infested snakes.

I told april that because that is what I believed at the time, not unheard of bringing in mites from live rodents from a pet shop. all it took was sliding out the tubs with the new snakes and seeing them with mites on them and talking to someone else that had just recieved snakes from the same source with mites.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Crazydog - he just gave you his permission. I think if you are saying that you received mites from Ed, it is pertinent to this conversation, because it shows that this is not an isolated incident.

Ed, you still haven't answered why you told April you got mites from rats, but told the forum you got them from BHB?

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Very strict quarantine procedures have ALWAYS been in place, if you reread my post it says I let my guard down on those snakes because I completly trusted the source and paid the price! I will never trust a snake from anyone after this.

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Yet another contradiction. Strict quarantine procedures are just that... STRICT. It's impossible to have strict quarantine procedures AND let your guard down.

BTW, Ed... I know mistakes can happen to anyone, and although I don't agree with your quarantine procedures or shipping multiple snakes in one bag, I understand that people do things differently.

However, I'm quite frankly appalled at your lying... either to April or the forum regarding where you picked up the mites. In addition, I find it inexcusible when you told April that the mites were "the gift that keeps on giving". :O That is beyond rude for anyone to say to someone that has a mite infestation, much less coming from the person that sold them $1,000+ worth of snakes. No offer of compensation. No sincere apology. Just a flippant attempt at humor to diffuse your responsibility and shortcomings.

Robin, why would you be stating that I have no quarantine practices when you know absolutly nothing about me, after that statement others followed your lead and echoed the same lie?

Lawrence, you are wrong about me lying to anyone, I had no idea at the time where the mites came from and was guessing.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Yet another contradiction. Strict quarantine procedures are just that... STRICT. It's impossible to have strict quarantine procedures AND let your guard down.

BTW, Ed... I know mistakes can happen to anyone, and although I don't agree with your quarantine procedures or shipping multiple snakes in one bag, I understand that people do things differently.

However, I'm quite frankly appalled at your lying... either to April or the forum regarding where you picked up the mites. In addition, I find it inexcusible when you told April that the mites were "the gift that keeps on giving". :O That is beyond rude for anyone to say to someone that has a mite infestation, much less coming from the person that sold them $1,000+ worth of snakes. No offer of compensation. No sincere apology. Just a flippant attempt at humor to diffuse your responsibility and shortcomings.

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Ed, I'm not in the business or hobby of selling or breeding ball pythons. However, imo and from what I have read and seen, appearances go a long way in this business.

You have several satisfied customers in here and I'm sure else where as well. And I never jump the gun till I have my facts straight. While you may have several good comments, all it takes is that one incident to cast a "shadow" on a person and the way they conduct business.

You sold April mite infested snakes. Add to it the fact that they were packaged together in one bag and that you made an irresponsible remark to her about "the gift that keeps on giving," I would say that you are not appearing in the best light in the current situation. The burden of proof and reparation are on your shoulders.

You can start making amends by offering April a few cans of provent-a-mite and absorb any costs of treating her collection should it be infested in the near future.

No one goes online and suddenly offers detail about their quarantine practices. But given the context of this thread and how the transaction took place, you should at least consider giving detailed description with pictures demonstrating your quarantine practices.

These few steps may or may not go a long way in mitigating your situation in other peoples eyes.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Lawrence, you are wrong about me lying to anyone, I had no idea at the time where the mites came from and was guessing.

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Perhaps not, but if you are unsure about the source of the mites, why would you implicate a large breeder like Brian? I know if I was Brian, I wouldn't be too happy if someone were throwing around allegations without proof. Have you discussed this with Brian, and did he admit to sending you snakes with mites?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Yet another contradiction. Strict quarantine procedures are just that... STRICT. It's impossible to have strict quarantine procedures AND let your guard down.

BTW, Ed... I know mistakes can happen to anyone, and although I don't agree with your quarantine procedures or shipping multiple snakes in one bag, I understand that people do things differently.

However, I'm quite frankly appalled at your lying... either to April or the forum regarding where you picked up the mites. In addition, I find it inexcusible when you told April that the mites were "the gift that keeps on giving". :O That is beyond rude for anyone to say to someone that has a mite infestation, much less coming from the person that sold them $1,000+ worth of snakes. No offer of compensation. No sincere apology. Just a flippant attempt at humor to diffuse your responsibility and shortcomings.

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Plus, April has 39 snakes. Imagine if they get mites or IBD? Let's all hope that doesnt happen to ANYONE. Either it be 1 snake, or a huge breeding collection.

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Originally Posted by ECLARK

Steve, it is common practice to ship more than 1 snake in a LARGE cloth bag. everyone has there own way of doing it, if you want to ship 1 to a bag.....dont criticise others for the way they do it.

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C'mon Ed, you know as well as I do that multiple snakes should not be bagged together.
Just because a so-called well known breeder does it, doesn't mean that we should do it as well.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Has anyone notified Brian Barczyk about this thread? He should at least have the option of replying to the implications that he is sending out mite infested snakes.

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yes

wonder if Brian will chime in here?

Wow, just too much to comment on thus far! Although I cannot say I'm suprised by these events in any way :(

I guess the biggest issue on mind my is, Why are you putting new snakes in such close proximity with snakes that you have sold months ago? They do not belong to you, and they are no longer yours. Surely you must have somewhere better to place new arrivals than with snakes that other people have paid thousands of dollars for :confuzd: Or do you feel safer playing roulette with other peoples animals rather than your own?