For those who have used Equate to treat mites...

I lost this thread half way through...wow things get so carried away sometimes. I've heard from four of, probably, the biggest boa breeders in the country that I've wasted money on PAM. That being said, the equate version is made with the same chemicals as PAM...fact. Equate is approved for use on humans...Pam is not. I have to think that human health regulations are harder to get approved than reptile's are, even though I take better care of my snakes than I do myself sometimes.. ;) . It's a really hard decision to make for some people. I guess it boils down to who you trust more and whos opinion you value more than it does anything else. :confuzd: , right?

I have to say that I probably missed a lot in this thread because I just can't read through all the off topic so much, so if this has already been debated...oops!

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

the equate version is made with the same chemicals as PAM...fact.

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Jimi,

I have the utmost respect for you, but I have to wonder, how in the world could you know this? Did you do any testing on both products to confirm this?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Jimi,

I have the utmost respect for you, but I have to wonder, how in the world could you know this? Did you do any testing on both products to confirm this?

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Well, they both have 0.5% Permethrin listed as the active ingredient. The other 99.5% of other stuff is anyone's guess...

My guess is water. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Jimi,

I have the utmost respect for you, but I have to wonder, how in the world could you know this? Did you do any testing on both products to confirm this?

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He doesn't have to. You only need to read the label.

First of all, some confusion needs to be cleared up. Labels on products have some very specific regulations. They must show the exact percentage of active ingredients. Which are the ingredients that do what the product is designed to do, in this case kill lice and/or ticks.

The rest of the ingredients must be listed in order, from the highest content to the lowest content, but aren't required to list the %'s. When a generic product is made, they use the exact same ingredient list as the brand name. But here's an important part... that doesn't mean they use the same amounts.

Given that, saying PAM and Equate have the same ingredients is, technically true. Saying they are the exact same thing... is most certainly wrong.

Whew... and after all that. I use PAM... because Equate isn't approved for reptiles. Until it is, I will continue to use PAM.

Our snakes had mites a couple months back & I didn't know where to get PAM other than the internet but I saw on here (or somewhere on the net) that you could use equate just make sure to remove the snake & water.
There's a Wal Mart close so I went & got some as well as some reptile relief (from petsmart, didn't see any PAM there).
I took the snakes out soaked them & used some RR. While that was happening (kids helping) I cleaned the enclosures .... got rid of the bedding & then sprayed the enclosures as well as their hides, covered them with saran wrap for a while then opened them up & let them dry out real well & then even took some dry paper towels & wiped the enclosure down, then put some newspaper & white paper towels down, put the hides back in, put the snakes back in & haven't seen a mite since.
The snakes are fine, eating & growing like weeds. No ill effects.


Could mites come from new bedding from the pet stores?

I'll step back in this thread for another post....


I have used both Equate, and Provent-A-Mite. I normally keep a few cans in stock of PAM, but when I ran out when I had a mite problem with a part of my collection, I was recommended PAM by one of the most knowledgeable, and respected Burmese Python breeders we have in the hobby. I am going to show respect for him by not mentioning his name, as doing so proves nothing...and I am explaining my experience using these products. I used it just as I would PAM. After one treatment with Equate, the mites were gone, and my snakes suffered no ill effects from it. It worked just as effectively as PAM did for me. All I can say is this is all a matter of opinion as of right now. If you use it correctly and appropriately I don't believe any problems should occur.

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Originally Posted by ReptiNut

Could mites come from new bedding from the pet stores?

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Yes mites can possibly come from new bedding. I have seen it happen before. You can bake, or freeze your bedding to help prevent this kind of problem. I use Cypress mulch, mixed with sphagnum moss for my Pythons, and I make sure I do this beforehand, taking preventative measures so I hopefully don't see another mite in my collection again.

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

Yes mites can possibly come from new bedding. I have seen it happen before. You can bake, or freeze your bedding to help prevent this kind of problem. I use Cypress mulch, mixed with sphagnum moss for my Pythons, and I make sure I do this beforehand, taking preventative measures so I hopefully don't see another mite in my collection again.

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I suspected that that is where they got them .... it was right after a fresh bedding (new aspen) change that they appeared.

I still use the newspaper with white paper towels on top of it .... I'm leery of the other kind of bedding, which is a shame. I liked the look of aspen & it really helped humidity-wise.

i've never heard of anyone getting mites from aspen before andrew...

i think the bottom line is this. PAM is proven safe for your snake. Equate is not.

If you want to take your chances... then go for it. If not, use PAM.

It is possible and has happened. They can come in any kind of bedding you use, whether it be they first come in as eggs, or live adults in the bedding itself...


Better safe than sorry, correct?

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

i've never heard of anyone getting mites from aspen before andrew...

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Pot, kettle, black.

For those of you being critical saying people shouldn't risk the snake's life by being too cheap to spend the extra $20.00... how's about not being too lazy to type out the full name of Provent A Mite so new folks reading and searching for mite treatments don't assume "PAM" means the cooking spray product and use it instead?

Ontop of this, what proof do they have other than one case or two, that Equate has caused serious problems and its too risky to use? I'd like to see the proof. I have used it myself, and thought it worked wonders. Either product used incorrectly can cause serious problems for the animal. If you don't know how to use it responsibly, correctly and safely, get help doing so...or better yet don't use the product. This is all matter of opinion unless you can get enough cases of Equate causing problems to show some solid proof. After using Equate, my snakes are still going strong and show absolutely no signs what so ever of any type of neurological damage, or health issues.


To compare using this product over another, to using cheap dog food rather than a better brand due to nutritional values is a cheap shot. We're talking about eradicating a reptilian parasite...not feeding the animal. There is no comparison between the two other than you can say "this brand names better than the other lesser name because its healthier for the animals growth, and digestive track etc". Show me some solid proof of a number of cases reported using equate, that have caused problems with reptiles; especially used properly. They were able to show it about the pest strips used to eradicate mites, and prove it causes neurological damage and possible death....

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Originally Posted by SoulSmilen

Pot, kettle, black.

For those of you being critical saying people shouldn't risk the snake's life by being too cheap to spend the extra $20.00... how's about not being too lazy to type out the full name of Provent A Mite so new folks reading and searching for mite treatments don't assume "PAM" means the cooking spray product and use it instead?

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Wow... if you're going to use analogies try to use those that make sense.

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

Ontop of this, what proof do they have other than one case or two, that Equate has caused serious problems and its too risky to use?

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Mostly anecdotal... but why the need to test the theory? Is a few bucks worth that?

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To compare using this product over another, to using cheap dog food rather than a better brand due to nutritional values is a cheap shot.

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So first you argue that the two products are equally effective, then you argue price has nothing to do with it? Anyone using Equate on a regular basis is doing so to save money. There's no other logical reason behind it. And I consider that akin to feeding your dog Walmart Brand.

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Show me some solid proof of a number of cases reported using equate

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Complete fallacy. You are making the accusation that Equate is just as good as PAM. The burden of proof is on you.

I for one thought it made perfect sense, in what SoulSmilen had said. What if a beginner to reptiles comes here and reads this thread? He/she see's the name PAM, instead of provent-a-mite and thinks of it as using cooking spray. It very well could happen....

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Mostly anecdotal... but why the need to test the theory? Is a few bucks worth that?

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Tell me, have you tried it yourself? Who said I was risking my snakes at all...I took advice from a highly experienced keeper, as well as respected breeder. It worked wonders. I was never testing a theory... If no cases can be shown, then the case on Equate possibly being dangerous doesn't hold water. I'm more than positive that Provent-A-Mite had to undergo testing to prove if it was safe, and effective to use with reptiles. Was it worth the risk to the inventor/creator of Provent-A-Mite?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

So first you argue that the two products are equally effective, then you argue price has nothing to do with it? Anyone using Equate on a regular basis is doing so to save money. There's no other logical reason behind it. And I consider that akin to feeding your dog Walmart Brand.

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Yes I do argue they were both equally effective. We are talking about eradicating a parasite once again, and not nutrition. Those two are on completely different levels. We are debating which is both safe and effective at killing the snake mite. The snake is not ingesting these chemicals. Generic dog food may very well be less healthy for the animal, but there is probably proof to back this up. Once again comparing nutrition to eradicating pests are two completely different things no matter which way you look at them. Saying that one is doing so to save money is being a bit stiff minded. There are many logical reasons behind someone preffering one over the other. Maybe the person has used it before and feels more comfortable using one product over the other...

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Complete fallacy. You are making the accusation that Equate is just as good as PAM. The burden of proof is on you.

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How is this complete fallacy? I have used Equate, and have said before that in my experiences it has been just as good as PAM. What other proof do you want? I used it and after one treatment, I haven't seen a mite. There has to be proof to back up the product being more dangerous to use in treating snake mites. The proof would be through a number of cases showing health problems or other issues regarding the product in question. If these cases cannot be provided, then there is no proof. All their "proof" would be are claims, and opinions; not facts. Like I said; it has been proven that the pest strips cause all kinds of problems through a number of cases reported. Show me these cases regarding Equate...

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He doesn't have to. You only need to read the label.

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Thank you.

Quote:

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I have the utmost respect for you, but I have to wonder, how in the world could you know this? Did you do any testing on both products to confirm this?

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You are talking to the wrong person like this. I don't argue like school kids.

hey, I have a quick (possibly stupid) question for all of you provent a mite experts https://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
I know it says to spray your bedding. I am using paper towels as bedding. Should I spray the paper towels or would I be good to just spray the enclosure and put fresh paper towels in?

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Originally Posted by green_man

hey, I have a quick (possibly stupid) question for all of you provent a mite experts https://ball-pythons.net/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
I know it says to spray your bedding. I am using paper towels as bedding. Should I spray the paper towels or would I be good to just spray the enclosure and put fresh paper towels in?

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From Ralph Davis:

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I use Black Knight and Provent-O-Mite:

I have used POM since it first came out to the industry ...........I use it exactly like the can says to use.........this is the ONLY treatment I spray directly in the snake's enclosure .............I start out with a clean tub................I spray the POM in the tub ...........covering the bottoms and the sides...............I let it dry............then I place the white paper towels and the water bowl in..............then the snake..............once this is all done...............I will use the BK "in the air" to cover all the bigger areas around the rack system .........mainly the floor and rack system components around the new snakes..............so they get the "double whammy"

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Complete text here:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/ma...ack_knight.asp

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

It is possible and has happened. They can come in any kind of bedding you use, whether it be they first come in as eggs, or live adults in the bedding itself...

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I have never heard of snake mites coming in bedding. They are host specific. Unless the bedding manufacturers are keeping infested snakes near where they package the bedding, I don't see any way that snake mites or eggs are transferred to the bedding. I've certainly never had mites from aspen or cypress that I've used and NOT baked.

Snake mites come from other snakes, not bedding - that is why it is important to always quarantine new additions. That's also why I always pre-treat the enclosure of any new addition with Provent-A-Mite and re-treat the established colony's enclosures to give them additional protection should I unwittingly transfer mites or eggs from a new arrival to my established collection.

I only had mites one time, from a pet store rescue, who I pre-treated with Reptile Relief before bringing her home. That wasn't enough to kill the eggs, and I placed an order for my can of Provent-A-Mite a month later when mites showed up. Thankfully, due to my quarantine practices, it was limited to that one snake, and since then, I've been anal about my pre-treatment of new arrivals' enclosures and re-treatment of the established groups enclosures with Provent-A-Mite when a new animal entered my home and haven't seen a mite since.

Provent-A-Mite also travels with me to Daytona, and I pretreat the enclosures I take with me to transport any new acquisitions.

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Bob Pound, the manufacturer of Provent A Mite. He may be the most knowledgeable person about pest control and the chemicals used this side of my local exterminator. I am sure the information that he provided which I will post here will be dismissed as bias by those who believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Equate is:

A. The same product in a different can
B. Equally as safe for reptiles
C. Equally as effective

Take it as you will, but this information is pretty damn convincing in my mind (which may not be on par with some of the insta-experts that reside here).

Here you go (his direct information will be in quotes):

Claim: Equate is the same product in a different can and is equally safe for reptiles as Provent A Mite

"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

Without exception, these other products use a much more toxic isomer as they are all designed to be applied to material that maybe will have the potential for contact with mammals, which have a completely different physiology than reptiles do. These products are designed to be as toxic as possible to get a quick "knock down". These higher toxicities will not harm mammals, but are documented to harm lower vertebrates, including reptiles, fish, amphibians, mollusks and so forth and therefore can be used for these other uses. Also, only a very small percentage of what is in the can is the "active" ingredient, the rest is always a trade secret of the company, so will never be disclosed (only the generic active name has to be disclosed under EPA regulations). Different isomers have differing toxicities and again, only a range of the cis-trans ratio is given on a label, so one can never find out what is really in the can (again trade secret).

Since a product is only approved by the EPA for the uses listed on the label, chemicals in the formula that are not toxic to the host for the testing submitted, doesn't mean they would not be toxic to a host not listed. If fact many of the "inerts" used in these permethrin formulas are toxic to reptiles. If the company tried to receive EPA approval with these formulas for use on reptiles, they would not, as the EPA would not allow a product to be sold that would harm the host listed on the label. This is why the EPA regulations state that it is a federal offense to sell or use a product inconsistent with the label, not only because of the risk to the host, but also because such usage can create resistance.

Many products for example, use a more toxic isomer and then use a synergist such as PBO. PBO breaks through the insect's defense and its synergistic activity makes the insecticide more powerful and effective. With the high cost of insecticides, PBO effectively reduces the cost by allowing the product to use les s active ingredient to obtain the mortality rate desired. The problem with this is PBO is absolutely toxic to reptiles with several published studies regarding using PBO for the killing of brown tree and other snakes confirming this.

Despite anyone's claim to the contrary, many of these other "identical" products have injured and killed many reptiles as we get the phone calls from people telling us after the fact. Also many times, the exposure can lead to chronic health problems instead of an acute reaction, so if the animal dies at a later date, no one looks back and understands the actual cause of death. This is a classic example with no pest strips. No clinical studies were ever performed and people just started using them, using their animals as guinea pigs. Only after many years of usage were the risks associated with them disclosed. This has been established by many leading zoos and vets, but even now, many people still swear they are the best thing to use and do not pose any risk."

Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA], has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™”


Claim: Equate (and other similar products) are equally as effective in killing mites and their eggs


"Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that will create residual protection that will not drop down to levels that can create resistance. We use a proprietary "time" release that ensures that it will create a long term residual effect at a high enough concentration to prevent the potential t o create resistant pests. Since mites and ticks can carry several diseases that can be harmful or fatal to the host, just getting an infestation is already too late if the pest was infected. Applying Provent-a-mite™to a cloth and then wiping around any openings in a cage will provide a barrier that will last a minimum of 30 days (usually 60 to 180 days). This will kill any ectoparasites before they can infest and potentially infect an animal. None of these other products can do this as their formulas are designed to break down very quickly, often in as little as 48 hours.

Provent-a-mite™ is also one of the least expensive methods when one compares the cost per application and the number of applications required. To treat an average 4' x 2' cage is approximately 50¢ with usually only one application required. To use the product preventatively, the cost for an average cage is about 5¢. The product has an average shelf life of 7 years. One of the biggest problems is that many people overuse the product, so the can will not treat as many cages as it actually should, costing more to use it than necessary.”

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

You are talking to the wrong person like this. I don't argue like school kids.

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Who is arguing? I asked if you could answer a question.

Just something to think about folks. Please remember that a lot of people that come here and read these threads are complete newcomers. Often this is their first exposure to information other than what the petstore gave them (which as we know can be very poor or no care information at all). When we give information here we all need to be very aware of that fact. What we do as experienced hobbyists or breeders may be one thing, hopefully we know the risk factors and our collections well enough to take a few short cuts if we choose. We do need, however, to remember that newcomers may take those "shortcuts" and may not have anywhere near the knowledge of their snakes to see subtle things that warn of oncoming issues or may take only part of the advice and miss the rest and cause harm to their collection.

I'm just trying to say here to be very, very careful my friends in what you post. It's read by members of all levels and I think we carry a pretty heavy responsibility to give the BEST advice possible down to the nitty gritty details. We can't assume someone knows this or that or will do things as an experienced keeper might, not when it comes to the safety and well-being of living creatures.

Personally I'll always recommend the safest, most proven route. Not only because that's what I do personally but because that's the safest thing for a newcomer to read about and do themselves.

Good points from Bob ... the guy knows his bugs!

The reality is that IF equate was safe and effective for use on reptiles the product would be marketed and sold as such ... it is not, so it is not ... All we have is a bunch of reptile people that have looked at a can of Provent -a- Mite and a can of Equate and said "oh these look the same, I'll save me a few dollars and use Equate" and have used it and seen results. That does not make it safe and that does not make it anywhere near as effective as Provent -a- Mite.

The proof from the manufacturer of Provent -a- Mite has been laid out for all ... anyone that is still convinced that Equate is the same thing, is welcome to call the manufaturer of Equate and ask them if their product is safe for use on Reptiles for the treatment of reptile mites and ticks.

Bio Sentry Laboratories
515-243-3000
4600 Park Ave
Des Moines IA 50321

I'll try and give them a call later today. I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.

-adam

I'll put money on it that they would be horrified that their product would be used that way Adam. What company would open themselves up to that liability if something went wrong? If a product was suggested by a company for use outside of it's recommended "target", well no smart company lawyer would like that (and you aren't going to be able to sue anyways since you willfully used it knowing it wasn't meant for that usage).

Remember too folks how many cats have died being exposed to dog flea products. Very similar product but made specifically for a certain species and often deadly to another.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

. Equate is approved for use on humans...Pam is not. I have to think that human health regulations are harder to get approved than reptile's are, even though I take better care of my snakes than I do myself sometimes..

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This logic is extremely flawed. Humans have a different physiology than reptiles. Just because the process of approval for a product might be more difficult for human products (and I don't have facts to prove that to be true), doesn't mean that human products should be used on animals if not intended.

Here's a tragic little story. About 8 years ago, my fiance's aunt killed all 3 of her cats by using a flea treatment made for dogs on them. They died within hours of the application of the product. It was a mistake and a horrible situation but at the same time a valuable lesson. There is a reason for the FDA. USDA and EPA. Governing bodies that are here to make sure that the products we use on ourselves or our pets are safe (as can be based on testing).

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Originally Posted by rockrgrrl

Let me start off by saying that I'm not posting this to have people get into a huge debate of which product is better... PAM or Equate. I personally took my bp to the vet the minute I noticed those little buggers (which was back on December 13th). She's currently on a weekly treatment (both her and her enclosure) of a diluted solution of Ivermectin (0.50 cc's per 1 liter of water to be exact). The problem is that I'm not sure it's doing the trick. Although I haven't noticed as many as before, I'm still seeing one or two. I was told they would be hard to get rid of but c'mon! Just this past weekend I was talking to one of the dealers at the swap I go to and she mentioned that she treats all her snakes with the Equate product and they're gone within 2 weeks. I've read several posts here on this forum about mite treatments and I was curious as to how people have specifically used this product. The gal I was talking to at the swap told me to spray down the entire enclosure and leave it set/dry for a few hours (of course removing the snake and water bowl first). She also told me to spray the area around the tank. I was reading the directions on this stuff and let me just say I'm a bit nervous. It talks about not letting this stuff get inhaled or directly on skin.... Can anyone out there shed a little more light on this and perhaps more detailed instructions as to how they treated their tanks??? Any suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated!

By the way... I'd also like to say "thanks" to all those who have posted on this site. While this is my first actual post I have frequented this site quite often for information since getting my 1st bp. Thank you!

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Here is the first post from this thread...if you read it she is interested in opinions on the use of Equate. She mentions PAM so she is aware of it but still wants to know about Equate. (for whatever reason).

Everyone that has posted the fact that Provent-a-mite is the ONLY tested and certified Pyrethin based reptile mite and tick treatment on the marketing is 100% correct. PAM is an awesome product with a lot of great features.

Everyone that has posted their personal experience that Equate has worked for them in treating their mite and tick problems just as effectively as PAM is 100% correct. As you cannot argue their experience with them. :colbert:

IMHO I don't think that people buy Equate just because it is cheaper (yes some do don't get my point wrong) but because we love our animals and as soon as we see a mite/tick we want to immediately treat our friends so they don't have to suffer even a second longer. (Getting PAM takes time...could be up to a week) while Equate is just a Wal-Mart trip away. There are a lot of posts about "what if" Equate causes an issue (though I didn't read about any specific problems)...what damage will a mite and tick outbreak do in a week to your reptiles while you wait on a treatment? (this is as much a questions as a statement as I really don't know:) )

Adam...I think it is a great idea for your to call the Equate manufacturer as I am sure they never thought about another use for there product and your input should help them to "want" to test in on reptiles too. (it is in there best interest to expand their market):carrot:

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Originally Posted by lord jackel

Adam...I think it is a great idea for your to call the Equate manufacturer as I am sure they never thought about another use for there product and your input should help them to "want" to test in on reptiles too. (it is in there best interest to expand their market):carrot:

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I guarantee they have thought of it. These folks aren't stupid. Odds are (and this is wild speculation) that they know the formulation of their product isn't right based on all the reasons that were stated in my post from this morning.

1. Safety
2. Efficacy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I guarantee they have thought of it. These folks aren't stupid. Odds are (and this is wild speculation) that they know the formulation of their product isn't right based on all the reasons that were stated in my post from this morning.

1. Safety
2. Efficacy

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OK agree they have pry thought of other markets...but (having worked in a chemical company before) unless they can understand the size and financial return on a particular market it rarely makes sense for them to invest in the research and certification as it can cost millions to do so. My comments are based on the fact that the more input from customers they receive about interest in using their product for an off lable use will make it more likely they will look into it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Bob Pound, the manufacturer of Provent A Mite. He may be the most knowledgeable person about pest control and the chemicals used this side of my local exterminator. I am sure the information that he provided which I will post here will be dismissed as bias by those who believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Equate is:

A. The same product in a different can
B. Equally as safe for reptiles
C. Equally as effective

Take it as you will, but this information is pretty damn convincing in my mind (which may not be on par with some of the insta-experts that reside here).

Here you go (his direct information will be in quotes):

Claim: Equate is the same product in a different can and is equally safe for reptiles as Provent A Mite

"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

Without exception, these other products use a much more toxic isomer as they are all designed to be applied to material that maybe will have the potential for contact with mammals, which have a completely different physiology than reptiles do. These products are designed to be as toxic as possible to get a quick "knock down". These higher toxicities will not harm mammals, but are documented to harm lower vertebrates, including reptiles, fish, amphibians, mollusks and so forth and therefore can be used for these other uses. Also, only a very small percentage of what is in the can is the "active" ingredient, the rest is always a trade secret of the company, so will never be disclosed (only the generic active name has to be disclosed under EPA regulations). Different isomers have differing toxicities and again, only a range of the cis-trans ratio is given on a label, so one can never find out what is really in the can (again trade secret).

Since a product is only approved by the EPA for the uses listed on the label, chemicals in the formula that are not toxic to the host for the testing submitted, doesn't mean they would not be toxic to a host not listed. If fact many of the "inerts" used in these permethrin formulas are toxic to reptiles. If the company tried to receive EPA approval with these formulas for use on reptiles, they would not, as the EPA would not allow a product to be sold that would harm the host listed on the label. This is why the EPA regulations state that it is a federal offense to sell or use a product inconsistent with the label, not only because of the risk to the host, but also because such usage can create resistance.

Many products for example, use a more toxic isomer and then use a synergist such as PBO. PBO breaks through the insect's defense and its synergistic activity makes the insecticide more powerful and effective. With the high cost of insecticides, PBO effectively reduces the cost by allowing the product to use les s active ingredient to obtain the mortality rate desired. The problem with this is PBO is absolutely toxic to reptiles with several published studies regarding using PBO for the killing of brown tree and other snakes confirming this.

Despite anyone's claim to the contrary, many of these other "identical" products have injured and killed many reptiles as we get the phone calls from people telling us after the fact. Also many times, the exposure can lead to chronic health problems instead of an acute reaction, so if the animal dies at a later date, no one looks back and understands the actual cause of death. This is a classic example with no pest strips. No clinical studies were ever performed and people just started using them, using their animals as guinea pigs. Only after many years of usage were the risks associated with them disclosed. This has been established by many leading zoos and vets, but even now, many people still swear they are the best thing to use and do not pose any risk."

Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that has been approved by the EPA and USDA], has undergone extensive clinical and field studies to insure that will eliminate, not just control a mite or tick problem and is unique enough to have received a patent. No other product is more effective or can make these claims and certainly no other product is the same as Provent-a-mite™”


Claim: Equate (and other similar products) are equally as effective in killing mites and their eggs


"Provent-a-mite™ is the only product that will create residual protection that will not drop down to levels that can create resistance. We use a proprietary "time" release that ensures that it will create a long term residual effect at a high enough concentration to prevent the potential t o create resistant pests. Since mites and ticks can carry several diseases that can be harmful or fatal to the host, just getting an infestation is already too late if the pest was infected. Applying Provent-a-mite™to a cloth and then wiping around any openings in a cage will provide a barrier that will last a minimum of 30 days (usually 60 to 180 days). This will kill any ectoparasites before they can infest and potentially infect an animal. None of these other products can do this as their formulas are designed to break down very quickly, often in as little as 48 hours.

Provent-a-mite™ is also one of the least expensive methods when one compares the cost per application and the number of applications required. To treat an average 4' x 2' cage is approximately 50¢ with usually only one application required. To use the product preventatively, the cost for an average cage is about 5¢. The product has an average shelf life of 7 years. One of the biggest problems is that many people overuse the product, so the can will not treat as many cages as it actually should, costing more to use it than necessary.”

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Only one thing to say http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...uAreTheMan.gif

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Originally Posted by SoulSmilen

Pot, kettle, black.

For those of you being critical saying people shouldn't risk the snake's life by being too cheap to spend the extra $20.00... how's about not being too lazy to type out the full name of Provent A Mite so new folks reading and searching for mite treatments don't assume "PAM" means the cooking spray product and use it instead?

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I am very sensitive to this. If you notice, in all of my posts I always type out Provent A Mite and then sometimes put (PAM) in brackets... but I never just type out PAM - because when I first got mites... I was on my way out to buy some Pam cooking spray to treat them. I had no idea.

So I've always taken care to type out the full name.

Another little thing I do... (and feel free to join me) when I find a thread where PAM is being mentioned... I post in it and write out Provent A Mite (PAM). Rather than asking everyone else to change... become the change you wish to see! ;)

And Jamie... thanks for making the call! Great information. :sunny:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

And Jamie... thanks for making the call! Great information. :sunny:

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I agree. Great info! :sweeet:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'll try and give them a call later today. I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say.

-adam

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That'd be cool Adam, although the funny part of this is anyone with half a brain knows the company will say "The product is not approved for reptiles, and shouldn't be used as such."

Think it will convince anyone? Probably not.

Now here's the thing that I find odd. I've heard several people say they heard about Equate from a "big" or "well-respected" even "major" breeder. Yet I haven't seen any names. I'm really curious who these major breeders are.

If you believe this then your sadly mistaken. Snake mites can and will possibly come in bedding. Where do you think they lay eggs? Where do you think they spend time when they're not feeding? Lets say a pet store that sells bedding, has animals which are harboring mites. The mites can possibly get inside the bedding. If you haven't had them, then congradulations but it can happen and there is a potential for them to come in with the bedding. I think of it as kind of low to make claims that it will not happen, and that there is no possible way that mites can come in on the bedding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I have never heard of snake mites coming in bedding. They are host specific. Unless the bedding manufacturers are keeping infested snakes near where they package the bedding, I don't see any way that snake mites or eggs are transferred to the bedding. I've certainly never had mites from aspen or cypress that I've used and NOT baked.

Snake mites come from other snakes, not bedding - that is why it is important to always quarantine new additions. That's also why I always pre-treat the enclosure of any new addition with Provent-A-Mite and re-treat the established colony's enclosures to give them additional protection should I unwittingly transfer mites or eggs from a new arrival to my established collection.

I only had mites one time, from a pet store rescue, who I pre-treated with Reptile Relief before bringing her home. That wasn't enough to kill the eggs, and I placed an order for my can of Provent-A-Mite a month later when mites showed up. Thankfully, due to my quarantine practices, it was limited to that one snake, and since then, I've been anal about my pre-treatment of new arrivals' enclosures and re-treatment of the established groups enclosures with Provent-A-Mite when a new animal entered my home and haven't seen a mite since.

Provent-A-Mite also travels with me to Daytona, and I pretreat the enclosures I take with me to transport any new acquisitions.

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andrew i disagree with you.

first off, i wouldn't buy bedding from a store which is overwhelmed with mites and second... it's in a sealed bag. it's not a clump of aspen in the corner beside the snake enclosures where you scoop your own!

and andrew... just because you say it's so... doesn't make it a reality!

First off, how would you know the store has mites?...


And if you disagree with me, you disagree. Thats your opinion. Just because you disagree with me, doesn't make it incorrect...

well personally i know which stores are good in my area and which ones are bad. you can usually tell by looking at the way the animals are housed... that's a good sign. if they are housed together in crummy looking bins... you know no one cares if they have mites. if they are housed singley in clean bins... you know someone cares.

and andrew... i've never heard of anyone getting mites from aspen bedding... some people want to blame it on their bedding rather than where they picked up their snake... but no one has had total non-mite animals... brought in a bag of aspen and had an infestation take over immediately.

so... i think my opinion is more valid.

so there :P

LOL :rofl:

Just a note. Aspen and Cypress for animal bedding is usually pretreated for mites before being packaged, since they breed in wood chips. So if you buy a bag of aspen or cypress that's already open, there is a possibility of having mites in it.

That said, I've never heard of mites appearing in an unopen bag of bedding.

Oh? Take a look at most large chain stores. Take a look at smaller ones as well. Every single store in my area houses snakes together. Their cages may be cleaned, and the snakes may look in tip top shape, but it doesn't mean they can't be harboring them. Same with those that house their animals individually. I can see this conversation going only one way. Either you agree, or disagree. It doesn't make either point more valid...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

well personally i know which stores are good in my area and which ones are bad. you can usually tell by looking at the way the animals are housed... that's a good sign. if they are housed together in crummy looking bins... you know no one cares if they have mites. if they are housed singley in clean bins... you know someone cares.

and andrew... i've never heard of anyone getting mites from aspen bedding... some people want to blame it on their bedding rather than where they picked up their snake... but no one has had total non-mite animals... brought in a bag of aspen and had an infestation take over immediately.

so... i think my opinion is more valid.

so there :P

LOL :rofl:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

If you believe this then your sadly mistaken. Snake mites can and will possibly come in bedding.

I think of it as kind of low to make claims that it will not happen, and that there is no possible way that mites can come in on the bedding.

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Don't confuse other insects that could be present in types of bedding and even in newsprint. There are a variety of insects that could possibly be present in these substrates but would not adversely harm the reptile living on it.

Snake mites are a very specific species of insect that originates from Southeast Asia. So, if you are saying that bedding is the primary source of snake mites- you're wrong. It's the animals that are imported that are responsible for carrying the mites. Of course, areas exposed to these animals may harbour mites, but who's buying used bedding anyway?

Maybe if all the big FL importers would switch to using Provent-A-Mite instead of Equate, we wouldn't see mites at all! ;)

Now who said I had claimed it was the main source for snake mites? I know exactly what the snake mite is.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

Just a note. Aspen and Cypress for animal bedding is usually pretreated for mites before being packaged, since they breed in wood chips. So if you buy a bag of aspen or cypress that's already open, there is a possibility of having mites in it.

That said, I've never heard of mites appearing in an unopen bag of bedding.

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https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/7/cheer3.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/7/cheer3.gif https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/7/cheer3.gif

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Bob Pound, the manufacturer of Provent A Mite.

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I hate to beat a dead horse, but this horse has been beaten so bad I figure I may as well get a few more licks in.

Although Bob provided excellent information (and thanks again Jamie for providing it), I just want to point out that he is biased and the information doesn't necessarily relate to Equate.

The point is that Equate has not been tested for use on reptiles, and Bob points out that the ingredients MAY be harmful. The point is, nobody knows without further research. The people that have used Equate without any problems do not know if there are any lasting or cumulative affects with the type of permethrins or "other" ingredients contained in the product. There may not be, but once again that is an unknown whereas it is known with PAM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I hate to beat a dead horse, but this horse has been beaten so bad I figure I may as well get a few more licks in.

Although Bob provided excellent information (and thanks again Jamie for providing it), I just want to point out that he is biased and the information doesn't necessarily relate to Equate.

The point is that Equate has not been tested for use on reptiles, and Bob points out that the ingredients MAY be harmful. The point is, nobody knows without further research. The people that have used Equate without any problems do not know if there are any lasting or cumulative affects with the type of permethrins or "other" ingredients contained in the product. There may not be, but once again that is an unknown whereas it is known with PAM.

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Your absolutely right...I spoke to Bob as well and he gave me his spiel on things but didn't say anything about equate except for that it was designed for humans yada yada yada...

He also stated that no company is going to necesarrily give up much information on the actual formula for the products and he really only spoke about the isomer permethrin that he uses in Prevent-o-mite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AndrewH

I can see this conversation going only one way. Either you agree, or disagree. It doesn't make either point more valid...

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ah see i disagree with you again. this conversation is not going one way. you are posting your beliefs and thoughts. i'm posting mine... and then the greatest part of this... people who read the thread will make their own decisions for their own critters.

that's the best part of this forum... we all come here to get and share information. there is no "one right way" which is why there are forums. if there was only one right way,... it would be posted in a caresheet on the internet, every snake breeder would link to it and that would be that.

but... fortunately for all of us... we get to pick and choose what it is we want to do with our critters. we can bake our substrate... or not. we can choose to use Provent A Mite or Equate or Nix or Pest Strips... we can feed live or f/t or p/k... we can have two identical hides... or one... or none...

we get to make up our minds. :sunny: and this place of sharing knowledge is GREAT! *said in my best tony the tiger impersonation* https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...miley_abxb.gif

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

Your absolutely right...I spoke to Bob as well and he gave me his spiel on things but didn't say anything about equate except for that it was designed for humans yada yada yada...

He also stated that no company is going to necesarrily give up much information on the actual formula for the products and he really only spoke about the isomer permethrin that he uses in Prevent-o-mite.

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It seems to me that maybe you took a chance to use Lawrence's post to post exactly what I figured you would. Bob is biased..He must be!

There were more facts in that post than just whether they are the same. The facts about efficacy can't be disputed. The governing body REQUIRES that people who put Permethrin in products for HUMAN use make sure that the proper chemicals are added so that it breaks down after a short period of time and becomes inert. This is so when you treat your child for head lice, the chemicals don't remain on their head for weeks and possibly cause neurological problems.

Here is a test for you (from Bob so I guess you could claim bias again). Take two tubs. Spray one down with Equate and one with Prevent A Mite. Let them both dry. Then wash them both with soap and water multiple times. Now put a cricket in each. The Prevent A Mite treated tub should kill the cricket. The other should have no effect as it is easily washed away and broken down. Hardly long lasting protection against not just mites but their eggs. What good is a product that just kills the mites but does NOTHING to kill any remain eggs that will hatch possibly weeks later?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

It seems to me that maybe you took a chance to use Lawrence's post to post exactly what I figured you would. Bob is biased..He must be!

There were more facts in that post than just whether they are the same. The facts about efficacy can't be disputed. The governing body REQUIRES that people who put Permethrin in products for HUMAN use make sure that the proper chemicals are added so that it breaks down after a short period of time and becomes inert. This is so when you treat your child for head lice, the chemicals don't remain on their head for weeks and possibly cause neurological problems.

Here is a test for you (from Bob so I guess you could claim bias again). Take two tubs. Spray one down with Equate and one with Prevent A Mite. Let them both dry. Then wash them both with soap and water multiple times. Now put a cricket in each. The Prevent A Mite treated tub should kill the cricket. The other should have no effect as it is easily washed away and broken down. Hardly long lasting protection against not just mites but their eggs. What good is a product that just kills the mites but does NOTHING to kill any remain eggs that will hatch possibly weeks later?

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The fact is, Equate works, you have multiple people on this very forum stating so and you just want to keep shoving your way or the high way attitude on everyone! Use PAM or Equate, they both work great and treating and preventing mites.

Edit: Oops! I forgot desert!

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1.../cherrypie.jpg

Come on guys....


~push~ I'M getting the last word in here!
~shove~ No, I AM!
~push~ Nuh uh! Me!
~shove~ My last word! Final!
~push~ Lemme just say this...
~shove~ The last word is MINE...now shut up!
~push~ YOU shut up!
~shove~ No, YOU!
~push~ YOU!

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

The fact is, Equate works, you have multiple people on this very forum stating so and you just want to keep shoving your way or the high way attitude on everyone! Use PAM or Equate, they both work great and treating and preventing mites.

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Once again you miss the point! Just because something works (or so you say) doesn't mean that it is the right thing for the animal. You are freely recommending something that is being used in a manner other than the label states and may have long term effects. Equate DOES NOT prevent mites. It is just not possible unless it was a long lasting product. That has been explained but you don't want to hear it. You sound like a little child and I fully expect a picture of a piece of pie next.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Come on guys....


~push~ I'M getting the last word in here!
~shove~ No, I AM!
~push~ Nuh uh! Me!
~shove~ My last word! Final!
~push~ Lemme just say this...
~shove~ The last word is MINE...now shut up!
~push~ YOU shut up!
~shove~ No, YOU!
~push~ YOU!

:rolleyes:

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As I stated, I will continue to answer every ridiculous post with a truthful explanation of why its not only not fact but could be dangerous. We, as EXPERIENCED keepers need to make sure that the inexperienced, new keepers don't follow a path that may be harmful to their animal. That is done by educating them and giving them the tools to make the right decision. Until Equate has been tested and approved for use in reptiles, Steven shouldn't be recommending it to anyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djslurp1200

The fact is, Equate works, you have multiple people on this very forum stating so and you just want to keep shoving your way or the high way attitude on everyone! Use PAM or Equate, they both work great and treating and preventing mites.

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Sure, Equate kills mites, albeit temporarily as the substance breaks down too quickly to kill the eggs and larvae. It has been proven that Provent-a-Mite kills mites in ALL stages of its lifecycle. Equate, consequently, has not been proven to do that.

That's not the issue here...its that Equate is dangerous to reptiles and inadvisable to be used by new keepers that are inexperienced with it. That includes you Steven, as you previously stated that you have zero experience with it. Don't make dumb statements like "Use PAM or Equate, they both work great," you might end up being responsible for a new keeper killing their animal. I'm not willing to advocate something like that, niether should you, regardless of what you've been told by your so-called sources that have yet to be named.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

It seems to me that maybe you took a chance to use Lawrence's post to post exactly what I figured you would. Bob is biased..He must be!

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After thinking about my last post I shouldn't have stated that Bob was biased, although it should be pointed out that he has the potential for being biased solely due to his position in this situation. His information is probably just as valid as a neutral party, but unfortunately his role in this topic prevents him from being considered neutral.