I think my snake loves me

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Originally Posted by Cady

I voted yes my snake loves me! Even though I dont think snakes are capable of such a complex emotion as love .

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you lost me there , you voted yes my snake loves me even though you dont think them capable of such a complex emotion:eek:

this thread seems to have moved from a grey area to another dimension but it does make some interesting and amusing reading :D

arajara , how do you know your snake "loves" her privacy ? how does she show this emotion to you ?

How do you know she "loves" you for providing that privacy or indeed allowing it in the 1st place ?

Also without trying to sound too pedantic here as I am genuinely interested in your thought process, how do come to the conclusion that snakes express their love towards places in their environment that provide warmth and safety ?

Is this not a reactive imprint ( utilising warmth and their environment ) through years upon years of development and evolution.

Primitive and instinctive behaviour I would not class as showing love IMO.

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Originally Posted by snakey68

pedantic

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Only Peter Griffin uses that word...

:frustrate :frustrate I really would like to know what leads people to believe these things. My favorite though is when people refuse to separate their snakes because "One misses the other". When I see these and other statements it makes me very angry because that is basically saying the research and time put in by breeders and those with Herp degrees is all a lie. If they say that a Ball Python is a solitary animal and being with others can cause undue stress and ill health I am inclined to believe them, I am sure that if they had any scientific proof that snakes can become "heart-broken", or "depressed" im sure it would have been published by now.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Oh let me wade in here LOL. I would say I agree mostly with Judy's thoughts on this matter and strongly disagree with some of the posts calling snakes "mindless". Typical human belief system that we are this totally superior being and anything that isn't just like us is therefore "mindless".

Snakes may not have the capacity to show love as humans do, not because they are mindless but simply because nature didn't require they do so to thrive. They are perfectly developed for their place in our world and have a brain/mind just as fully developed for that place as we do for ours.

Do my snakes love me. Not likely and not in any way I could ever perceive so that's a moot point anyways. They are reactive to me in the only way they can be. I appreciate and honor their interactions with me for what they are, not trying to read human emotion into a non-human yet fully functional and developed creature of this world.

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oh ya baby!!!! :carrot:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Oh let me wade in here LOL. I would say I agree mostly with Judy's thoughts on this matter and strongly disagree with some of the posts calling snakes "mindless". Typical human belief system that we are this totally superior being and anything that isn't just like us is therefore "mindless".

Snakes may not have the capacity to show love as humans do, not because they are mindless but simply because nature didn't require they do so to thrive. They are perfectly developed for their place in our world and have a brain/mind just as fully developed for that place as we do for ours.

Do my snakes love me. Not likely and not in any way I could ever perceive so that's a moot point anyways. They are reactive to me in the only way they can be. I appreciate and honor their interactions with me for what they are, not trying to read human emotion into a non-human yet fully functional and developed creature of this world.

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Preach it!!!

...dangle a thawed rodent from your mouth and insert head into snake enclosure,report back if you can "feel the love". have fun !

I have never thought my snakes love me. I do believe they recognize my scent as not being a threat and thats about it.

As far as emotions go for any reptile, I believe the are non exsistant. I do think they have some sort of intelligence though, in their own little way.

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Originally Posted by Kristy

I have never thought my snakes love me. I do believe they recognize my scent as not being a threat and thats about it.

As far as emotions go for any reptile, I believe the are non exsistant. I do think they have some sort of intelligence though, in their own little way.

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I agree with you on everything, but this. If snakes don't have emotions then why do they ball up or coil back when scared or mad?

I don't know if my snake loves me, but I do know he does not see me as a threat and seems more relaxed around me than with other people. So, I voted yes, as it can't really be proved or disproved.

...with all that poop I've cleaned up he'd better love me!! :devil:

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Originally Posted by stangs13

I agree with you on everything, but this. If snakes don't have emotions then why do they ball up or coil back when scared or mad?

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Instinct.....

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Originally Posted by Brandon.O

Instinct.....

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Agreed, its an instinctive reaction to feeling threatened.

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Originally Posted by Kristy

Agreed, its an instinctive reaction to feeling threatened.

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But I thought you just said they have no emotions? If you can feel, you can have emotions. Just because their emotional spectrum isn't as large as a human's doesn't mean they have no emotions at all.

Being scared, feeling threatened... those are emotions. We can feel them. So just because a snake is a reptile and not human, does that void those emotions?

Reptiles may or may not have the capacity to love. But I do believe they can recognize people. Absinthe, our red tail, refuses to be handled by anyone but my boyfriend. She will bite any other person. How is that instinct, that she prefers his company? That she feels safe in his presence? My ball, Puppy, will seek me out above others. When we have friends over, and he's out, he will crawl to me. Not someone else. It's not because I smell or look like a rat or anything similar. They don't even know to associate my boyfriend and I with rats. They associate their big, blue plastic tub with rats. Blue tub = feeding time and they know it. That's conditioning, not instinct.

They're not all about instinct. They do have personalities. And if they have personalities, then that means they do have likes and dislikes. And if they can have likes and dislikes, then that means they feel at least a small amount of emotion.

Like I said, maybe not a broad spectrum. But there are some. And they can come to recognize certain people, and prefer them to others.

Personally I think some people just don't spend enough time with their snakes.

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Originally Posted by xxCyxx

But I thought you just said they have no emotions? If you can feel, you can have emotions. Just because their emotional spectrum isn't as large as a human's doesn't mean they have no emotions at all.

Being scared, feeling threatened... those are emotions. We can feel them. So just because a snake is a reptile and not human, does that void those emotions?

Reptiles may or may not have the capacity to love. But I do believe they can recognize people. Absinthe, our red tail, refuses to be handled by anyone but my boyfriend. She will bite any other person. How is that instinct, that she prefers his company? That she feels safe in his presence? My ball, Puppy, will seek me out above others. When we have friends over, and he's out, he will crawl to me. Not someone else. It's not because I smell or look like a rat or anything similar. They don't even know to associate my boyfriend and I with rats. They associate their big, blue plastic tub with rats. Blue tub = feeding time and they know it. That's conditioning, not instinct.

They're not all about instinct. They do have personalities. And if they have personalities, then that means they do have likes and dislikes. And if they can have likes and dislikes, then that means they feel at least a small amount of emotion.

Like I said, maybe not a broad spectrum. But there are some. And they can come to recognize certain people, and prefer them to others.

Personally I think some people just don't spend enough time with their snakes.

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Ok let me clarify, I wasn't really classifying fear and feeling threatened into emotions. When I was talking about emotions I was refering to love. Reptiles don't feel love. Feeling threatened yes. But this thread was refering to snakes loving people so thats what I was refering to as far as emotions.

But balling up or a defensive postion is simply a natural instinct for them when the feel threatened.

Just wanted to get that out there. I should have clarified earlier.
Kristy

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Originally Posted by Kristy

Ok let me clarify, I wasn't really classifying fear and feeling threatened into emotions. When I was talking about emotions I was refering to love. Reptiles don't feel love. Feeling threatened yes. But this thread was refering to snakes loving people so thats what I was refering to as far as emotions.

But balling up or a defensive postion is simply a natural instinct for them when the feel threatened.

Just wanted to get that out there. I should have clarified earlier.
Kristy

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Then excuse me for taking it as such.

I still just think they have the capability to love in their own way. Honestly, Puppy has never once balled up in my presence. I take that to mean that he does not view me as a threat. That, along with his other actions towards me, lead me to believe that while he might not love me as one human loves another, he does feel some form of that emotion towards me, in his own way.

My opinion, based on my own observations and my own snake's actions.

I get exactly what you are saying about Puppy, people like you and threads like these always make me question my own beliefs as far as this topic goes. Main reason being, is that we can only percieve (sp?) love as we feel it and we experience it. Then when a thread like this comes up we automatically assume that when someone asks about love and reptiles that they are talking about human love.

Then there is someone like you xxcyxx that kind of changes my perspective about the whole thing. When you put it as you do, reptiles loving in there own little way, it makes me question it. Thank you for that because I can be too stubborn sometimes to see another persons point of view.

But on subject of Puppy, and the way he reacts to you reminds me of Houdini. He is okay with my husband and my son, he sees them and is around them almost daily. But any other men and he goes batty. Gets aggitated, ansy and wont sit still. He is not like this with females at all, any female (human) my mom loves to hold him never once aggressive towards her or any other female. But god forbid a man should try and handle him.

So thinking of it from the animals point of view opens up a whole new world of questions. Maybe we should really look at the emotions from the reptiles perspective and not our own. At least I should lol
Kristy

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it? Yes, I do. And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.

The idea of love encompasses many things. To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

Love, much like religion, has no one fundamental truth.

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A agree with these statements. I voted my bp loves me. I think some recognize certain people as not being a threat, therefore they 'open up.'

I think some people (no one specificly) are tying the Webster's defined human emotion of love to tightly. Its sort of a tunnel vision view (is that repeating myself? vision, view....anyway... lol.)

My normal bp has some sort of respect/recognition/'love' for me since he only comes out of his hides for me (when he sees me hes instantly roaming around his viv poking the screen of the tank as if to say "Let me out!") I don't know if its my scent, my heat, my voice (if snakes can distinguish sounds well enough.) I live in a house where there are many other people coming in and out of the herp room, who also feed and handle the snakes. For some reason tho, this bp will comes out for me and sit with me for hours, while he fidgets when other people handle him.

Through my experice with my herp collection, I have a few specimens who I believe have some type of bonding/comfort with me. Others are completely instinctive and emotionally void in every sense of a sterotypical wild snake.

Its tough to explain without making a 100 page post. Do I think any of my snakes experience love like a puppy would, or like I love a painting, a boyfriend, a family member, or pasta? Of course not. Love is what an individual defines it to be. If someone wants to make the connection with their herp and see it as having some sort of comfort and respect with them, whats wrong with it? It doesn't make the owner crazy, its just a different point of view.

Exactly =] I'm glad you get what I'm saying.

And don't worry. I can be pretty stubborn myself. Especially when it comes to my snakes. Just being around them the way I have been, and seeing them, comparing them to other people's snakes... I retain that they have emotions. Not broad or strong ones. But they do.

I think the problem here is that everyone defines love differently. Love is just a concept or construct. We're not talking about humans loving humans, but suppose we were. What does it actually mean to love someone?

You only kiss them, no one else? You would take a bullet for them? You have children together? All of the above and much, much more?

I think 'snake love' needs to be operationally defined on a much simpler level than human love before we can decide whether we believe our snakes love us. If we could all agree on some such operational definition, than we would all be on the same page when we say "it loves me," or, "it loves me not." We all know snakes aren't capable of loving in the same way as people.

So, I define 'snake love' as a snake's ability to recognize a person as nonthreatening and to react accordingly (i.e. by not trying to eat you). Using that as my definition, which seems appropriate since we're talking about a reptile, I would say my snake loves me. It reacts differently to me than it does to others, seemingly indicating a preference for me. Probably because I'm not a threat. There you have it, 'snake love.' Very different than human love, hence we have to use a different definition.

Like I said, the problem is coming up with an operational defnition of 'snake love' upon which everyone agrees.

I can't sleep, just some thoughts.

O.k i really was going to just not get into this subject,but here it is,Yes they do have feelings if you want to call basic emotions feelings,they get hurt just like we do,they have temper flares just like we do,and yes they feel pleasure.Now i understand that people think that all reptiles are mindless zombies who live off instinc,this is not true and far from the truth.They have a social structure with in and need stimulation to have a well being.Good example,(This was a year ago)We lost our little girl (Ball Python) god bless her soul,when she did past away,her mate stopped eating and kept going around the cage for days,and seemed really frumpy.Now call it what you will,it is a form of depression.He was and still is an awesome eater,no health issues,no problems untill that happened.He is over it now,since i introduced him to a wonderful new girl,after they met,he went back to his normal self,but it took awhile for him to get back on track.How do explain that?We are animals no matter what everyone thinks.Reptiles are no different,they play,they do feel,and they do have basic feelings and emotions.Scientist beg to differ,because they onley look at one side,which is the scientific end of it all.I beg to differ,because my reptiles in one way or another show me emotion and inteligents.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

Good example,(This was a year ago)We lost our little girl (Ball Python) god bless her soul,when she did past away,her mate stopped eating and kept going around the cage for days,and seemed really frumpy.Now call it what you will,it is a form of depression.He was and still is an awesome eater,no health issues,no problems untill that happened.He is over it now,since i introduced him to a wonderful new girl,after they met,he went back to his normal self,but it took awhile for him to get back on track.How do explain that?

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Sorry to hear that but does that mean you housed them together?

Of course,they have plenty of room to roam around and beleive it or not they are not snake eaters,most ball pythons at least in my opinion are very social with each other and seem to like the company of each other.What happened was my female,got egg bound and did not survive the surgery.Though the vet i brought her to did do his best and i do not blame him for what is done,it still sucks,she was our girl.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

Of course,they have plenty of room to roam around and beleive it or not they are not snake eaters,most ball pythons at least in my opinion are very social with each other and seem to like the company of each other.What happened was my female,got egg bound and did not survive the surgery.Though the vet i brought her to did do his best and i do not blame him for what is done,it still sucks,she was our girl.

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That is an excellent reason for NOT housing them together. Your female was probably bred before she reached a sufficient weight. Ball pythons are not social animals, and housing them together has NO benefits for the snakes. I'd highly advise you to separate them.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

Scientist beg to differ,because they onley look at one side,which is the scientific end of it all.

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Is there another side? We call upon science to solve these problems. Science has proven you wrong. Reptiles cannot experience human emotions in the way you claim they can.

O.k look it i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone.My female was 12 years old,my male is 10 years old,If you seperate them and then introduce them,they will breed,i have allways housed Ball Pythons together with out any negative out come,the eggs that were in her were infertile i have never seen any mating going on with either one of them,some snakes do in fact still produce eggs with out a male around,well mine happened to do just that with out mating.I have been into reptiles for 22 years +.I would like to think that i know what i am doing.And yes,Ball Pythons and Red Tails are very social with each other.Now i am not saying all snakes can be social with each other,but i know for a fact that at least mine are.Scientist dont know everything,it is experience that counts.Books do not tell all.I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.Just an opinion.Not bashing.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.

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I do believe we get our info from some of the most experienced ball python breeders in the world. May I ask where did you get your info from when you started out telling you it was ok to house them together?

I would like to add one more thing,by no meens am i an expert,i am sure everyone here learns something new everyday about there animal,i am just pointing out what i have observed in my husbandry and keeping of different reptiles and amphibians through out the years.

I was taught by R.Js Exotics,N.E.R.D,and private breeders from where i am from.Volunteered my time for more than 7 years at both places.Not to mention i am part of the New England Herp Sociaty.NEHS.So you meen to tell me that they are wrong in what they taught me?Wow,i guess i am going to have to tell Rob who own R.Js Exotics that everything he taught me over the years was wrong.I wonder what he is going to say?Hummm

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Originally Posted by repforlife

I was taught by R.Js Exotics,N.E.R.D,and private breeders from where i am from.Volunteered my time for more than 7 years at both places.Not to mention i am part of the New England Herp Sociaty.NEHS.So you meen to tell me that they are wrong in what they taught me?Wow,i guess i am going to have to tell Rob who own R.Js Exotics that everything he taught me over the years was wrong.I wonder what he is going to say?Hummm

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Ive never hears of R.Js exotics (doesnt mean they are bad people) but ive gotten the vast majority of my info on keeping my reptiles from NERD, and as for the private breeders, some are very good and experienced and some will make you wonder how their animals are living. Not trying to start an argument, im just stating what ive been taught and have learned from the best in the business.

Good Luck!:rockon:

Look it like i sald before,i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone,i understand everyone has there opinion and everyone thinks that they are an expert.I am no expert and i can say it in confidence and admit it.We are all here for one purpose am i right?And that is because we love our reptiles and it is good to chat to one another about them and get information.Opinion are opinions,that all they are.We should not be going against ourselfs when there are so few of us around who truley love our animals.So lets just stop attacking and be good little herpers shall we,and stop with the i know more than you bit.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

O.k look it i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone.My female was 12 years old,my male is 10 years old,If you seperate them and then introduce them,they will breed,i have allways housed Ball Pythons together with out any negative out come,the eggs that were in her were infertile i have never seen any mating going on with either one of them,some snakes do in fact still produce eggs with out a male around,well mine happened to do just that with out mating.I have been into reptiles for 22 years +.I would like to think that i know what i am doing.And yes,Ball Pythons and Red Tails are very social with each other.Now i am not saying all snakes can be social with each other,but i know for a fact that at least mine are.Scientist dont know everything,it is experience that counts.Books do not tell all.I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.Just an opinion.Not bashing.

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Just because you have not seen them copulate, do you think that they could have done is when you were not looking?

HAPPY NEW YEARS ALL!!!!May all of you and your Reptiles have a safe and fun year.Remeber:If you happen to be wasted tonight,do not play with your reptiles!I am sure there are going to be some good storys for everyone to share tommorow!!!LOL....

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Originally Posted by repforlife

Look it like i sald before,i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone,i understand everyone has there opinion and everyone thinks that they are an expert.I am no expert and i can say it in confidence and admit it.We are all here for one purpose am i right?And that is because we love our reptiles and it is good to chat to one another about them and get information.Opinion are opinions,that all they are.We should not be going against ourselfs when there are so few of us around who truley love our animals.So lets just stop attacking and be good little herpers shall we,and stop with the i know more than you bit.

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I NEVER once said I was an expert. I would like to know whos attacking you, I sure hope you dont think im attacking you in my 3 (now 4) posts on here? And again, ive never said anything about knowing more than you, all I said was I got my info from the most experienced breeders in the world and the housing together thing was one of the very first things ive learned from them.

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

Just because you have not seen them copulate, do you think that they could have done is when you were not looking?

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they do like to be sneaky little boogers when it comes to that for me.:cool:

Not that i am aware of (Them breeding behind my back ,i meen)I am sure it is possiable and may have happened?I myself do not beleive in breeding Ball Pythons,i meen if it happens it happens,i have had my fare share of baby Ball Pythons born right here and it was hard enough time to just find good homes for them all.But there are so many around here at least that people get and think,"Oh i am going to breed these guys and make a ton of money",that they find out the hard way,that it kinda,not works that way,at least around here,that alot of them end up in crappy homes and then get passed to a even crappier home and then usally end up here with us,and i end up treating them,for what problems they endure and then find good forever homes for.I do beleive certain allmost extinc reptiles (Monkey Tail Skinks,Mertins Water Monitors,White Throat Monitors,ect...)Should be bred for the simple fact that there numbers are allmost gone in the wild.But not all reptiles should be bred for the fact of a quick buck.

Oh,all i was saying about the "Being good part" was i was under the impression that the chat was getting kinda heavey.Just did not want it to go to crazy if you know what i meen.

Keeping the peace folks!!Thats all! :)

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Originally Posted by repforlife

I do beleive certain allmost extinc reptiles (Monkey Tail Skinks,Mertins Water Monitors,White Throat Monitors,ect...)Should be bred for the simple fact that there numbers are allmost gone in the wild.

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I totally agree with you there, our local reptile zoo has a breeding program for several endangered reptiles, including my favorite Monkey Tail Skink.:sunny:

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Originally Posted by repforlife

Oh,all i was saying about the "Being good part" was i was under the impression that the chat was getting kinda heavey.Just did not want it to go to crazy if you know what i meen.

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There have been some "heavy" threads here in the past (I beleive most are now locked) but im not the kinda person to make a thread go crazy and start a heated argument. I like things calm.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

I was taught by...N.E.R.D, and private breeders from where i am from.Volunteered my time for more than 7 years at both places.

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Recently?

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Originally Posted by danigurrl

if snakes can distinguish sounds well enough.

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Snakes "hear" through vibrations. They don't hear sounds such as someone talking. If you look closely, notice they don't have any ears.

No like 7 years ago,it was for a short time like 1 month from you guys,it was an experience i think it was in the summer of 01. R.Js Exotics is the one that took me under there wing and taught me everything else that i did not learn from you guys.Hi Kara.By the way i finally got my Blood and you were right,they are awesome.I should have got one a long time ago.Here is a pic of her.Let me know what you think.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20...e/Dscf0006.jpg

Not that i have never played with Bloods it is just from past experience i allways had a bad one with these guys,getting bit,sprayed on,did i mention getting bit?But for some reason,she really apealed to me,so i went for it.To my surprise she is the sweetest Blood i have ever encountered,now i am not saying i will never take a hit from her.But time will tell.For now she is my new love.

O.k,i am way off topic here.Could someone move this to the Blood section?We are suppose to be chatting about "I think my snake loves me".Sorry folks.Got side tracked.

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Originally Posted by repforlife

No like 7 years ago,it was for a short time like 1 month from you guys,it was an experience i think it was in the summer of 01.

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I "think" Kara's point is that they do NOT recommend housing together like you suggested, at least not now.

I tottaly agree and am not saying that anyone is right or wrong.I am just saying from my experience,i have never had a negative experiece rooming them together,myself at least.I meen it not like i just get one from someone and throw them together,of course there is a quartine period.Just my experience has never been a bad one with houseing them together.

I think you should visit this thread that was a long discussion on housing ball pythons together. Keepers with years more experience than you and I on this topic sounded off on it.


http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=23890

O.k cool i will check it out.

whatever happened to the pic of the BP that ate the other?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ic_royals2.jpg
LilyOrchid posted that picture in an old thread on this site. I don't know who it belongs to.

at the picture above:
OH MY GOD!!!!!! :puke2: