How Low?

the entire world doesn't have to see the lowest possible price and believe that as gospel. every jimmy doesn't have to instantly have a sale, the low ballers won't know exactly what low is. it will quite things down a bit and give everyone a little more flexibility in their pricing(that the entire bp community doesn't see).



vaughn

I think that would be bad for business imo. Having to email people for a price and wait for replies. That would make it hard on a seller having to spend time away from the business to answer X amount of emails.

I can't see too many sellers who would be willing to risk not advertising their price when the seller right next door (so to speak) has his price up. Most people skip right on by an advert that doesn't have a price.

Jeff B isn't going to change anything that is already making him money. Why do you think scammers are always seen on KS... because they pay!

Here is my opinion on the whole thing. MKR basically crapped on every one of their customers that has bought a Lesser or Mojave from them. If I was one of their customers I would be incensed over it. Luckily I'm not! But the truth is, Joe doesn't really seem to give a crap what people think about him so why should he care about the people who spent their hard earned money with him for an investment animal. Not bought a pet Beagle, but bought an investment animal to breed.

Also, Vaughn is dead on about KS. Stop making breeders post prices and you will stop the out in the open undercutting. Undercutting done behind the scenes has less chances of harming the market as a whole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I think that would be bad for business imo. Having to email people for a price and wait for replies. That would make it hard on a seller having to spend time away from the business to answer X amount of emails.

I can't see too many sellers who would be willing to risk not advertising their price when the seller right next door (so to speak) has his price up. Most people skip right on by an advert that doesn't have a price.

Jeff B isn't going to change anything that is already making him money. Why do you think scammers are always seen on KS... because they pay!

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Eh, make it hard. Teach some folks to actually -advertise- themselves and not their 'sales'. I look at animals, not prices in the long run anyways.
Just a side note. I understand where you're comming from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Bill

If you have 20 females that produce 10 eggs each how do you get 600 babies? Maybe my calculator is broke. ;)

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This was an EXTREME unrealistic calculation to show what someone with good breeding BEL's and good laying females could do.

I meant to say breed each BEL to 20 females (assuming the BEL's are major studs :)

Edit: the entire point is, people can flood the market and sell for cheap if they have the right setup with super versions of co-doms

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Edit: the entire point is, people can flood the market and sell for cheap if they have the right setup with super versions of co-doms

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Yes they can and do!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Also, Vaughn is dead on about KS. Stop making breeders post prices and you will stop the out in the open undercutting. Undercutting done behind the scenes has less chances of harming the market as a whole.

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It is simple for me, if someone is not willing to put their price out there, than I just move on.... it tells me they don't want to sell to me. At shows, if a dealer can't take the time to mark their animals, than they don't have time for me. I might have missed some great deals, but why hide. One reason this really bothers me is, I watched a dealer once change his verbal price to 3 different buyers in a row in a matter of 2 mins. I don't like being sized up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbkd

It is simple for me, if someone is not willing to put their price out there, than I just move on.... it tells me they don't want to sell to me. At shows, if a dealer can't take the time to mark their animals, than they don't have time for me. I might have missed some great deals, but why hide. One reason this really bothers me is, I watched a dealer once change his verbal price to 3 different buyers in a row in a matter of 2 mins. I don't like being sized up.

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Maybe they just want serious buyers? I would want people to appraise my animals, not the price I have them at. Anyone worth buying from would have a reasonable offer and not try to shank you for what they could get.

Interesting how the hottest topic on this forum is about the almighty dollar...


I also find it interesting how a lot of breeders go on and on about what a great investment ball's are, and how anyone can get in on it and recoup their initial investment many, many, many times over...it's better than the stock market, it's a sure thing, it's money in the bank, this is just the beginning, blah blah blah...

Now this MKR thing has crashed the whole market....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I guess my point is that if you're in this for investment purposes, you better be prepared for things like this...

Fortunately I love these critters because they look cool and have great personalities!!!

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's really up to the buyers to do their homework before actually buying.

The big difference is, the market may keep that $1000-$1200 price range for a longer period and see a slower decline Vs seeing the $1200-$1000-$950-$900-$850-$750 in black & white week after week/month after month. This is what seems crazy to me!

These public dumping of morphs and lowering prices in the hundreds and thousands of dollars in one weekend! It's great for that seller today, sure they sell a couple dozen of this and a couple dozen of that and make $25k-$50k BAM!

Fortunately for me I can get a lot more morphs for my BP dollar today than I could've 6-7 months ago! I'm pretty sure we will see some leveling out at some point. I don't think we'll be seeing $100.00 Pastels or $350 Spiders anytime in the next 1-2yrs, or will we??..LOL

350 spiders what ever.

It takes a good bit of the work out of it if they're so cheap and thusly lessens my thrill. Sorry, but that comment just pissed me off.

Market this Market that, even if it is how things are in the 'real' world for prices to drop, things to flop etc, this is such *you know what*. Honestly, if people would keep their dang'd heads and not 'dump' on the 'market' i think this would last longer. no one seems to be planning for the long run, for tomorrow. sure 25k is great today like said- but wouldn't it be great if you did some actual .... work ... and had it last every year? i mean. jesus. this is retarded. its selfish, immature, and bratty imo.

i dont feel the bp market in general is in danger just yet but this crap is so stupid. oh recessive are the way to go so lets just rip away any value on a dom or co dom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Interesting how the hottest topic on this forum is about the almighty dollar...

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no its not, its about someone deciding they're pretty much going to ruin a lot of hard work and money and time other people have bestowed upon their animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I also find it interesting how a lot of breeders go on and on about what a great investment ball's are, and how anyone can get in on it and recoup their initial investment many, many, many times over...it's better than the stock market, it's a sure thing, it's money in the bank, this is just the beginning, blah blah blah...

Now this MKR thing has crashed the whole market....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

---

no he hasn't its not black tuesday or whatever, nothing has changed. YET. but this isnt helpful for the long run. i would definatly NOT consider bps as a poor investment choice, there will always be a good ROI. Don't snot up breeders because they told the TRUTH and now one guy is trying to crap on everyone else. Honestly I think there's a reason to his rhyme and time will tell more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I guess my point is that if you're in this for investment purposes, you better be prepared for things like this...

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as far as i know no one has put their life savings into this- but 1$ or 100$, that guy has potentially screwed over his previous customers and the people that buy his cheap-o's and ruin things for other people

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Fortunately I love these critters because they look cool and have great personalities!!!

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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so you're the only one? don't you care about the effort others have put into this and spent years on? that's what pisses me off the most, people thinking "oh i can buy this and its mine and i can do whatever to the market that i want" well forget that! You didn't hunt down these animals, you didn't first work to test their genetics, basiclly i find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to the people that came before you.

Now this is all my way of thinking, and the end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Interesting how the hottest topic on this forum is about the almighty dollar...

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You do realize that to some people this is a living, and the "almighty dollar" is how they feed their families and pay the mortgage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I also find it interesting how a lot of breeders go on and on about what a great investment ball's are, and how anyone can get in on it and recoup their initial investment many, many, many times over...it's better than the stock market, it's a sure thing, it's money in the bank, this is just the beginning, blah blah blah...

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It is a great investment, but like any investments people have some control and are able to ruin a good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Now this MKR thing has crashed the whole market....ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

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Lol, hardly, but it is irresponsible, and, frankly, stupid to sell an item lower than market value. As was mentioned earlier someone purchased most of them from MKR (who apparently was just trying to make a quick buck, not bring it back to the public, since they sold most of it to one person). That person can probably flip them for a 600-800 profit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I guess my point is that if you're in this for investment purposes, you better be prepared for things like this...

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Sure, but you also have the right to look down on irresponsible pricing :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Fortunately I love these critters because they look cool and have great personalities!!!

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That was a rather trollish comment, Im pretty sure almost everyone who is on these forums, and who sells these wonderful animals for a living/side job love the critters as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sure, they will get there, but hopefully not before the market supports it :)

Who in the world tried to tell you that BP's are a "sure thing" or "money in the bank". If anyone falls for that line of BS, they must be dealing with one of our hobbies most infamous flim flam artists.

Whatever MKR has done to the market with their ridiculous quick dumping of valuable snakes aside, nothing is ever a sure thing when you breed living creatures. Ask anyone who breeds top race horses and has a mare slip a foal too soon...there are just no guarantees...this isn't a "make a buck fast" thing and never will be (thank God for that).

It's a long term thing so for me, I'll just sit and watch long term. I think in the end whatever quick cash MKR made, they've hurt their reputation and their clients with this stupid business decision and this is a very small world with people with really long memories.

They didn't "give back to their clients", but they did stick it to them.

I think BP's have developed a following of people who decided early on (before buying their 1st morph) that they wanted to make X amount in one season Vs X amount in 2-3 seasons. It's short term mentality to drop your pants on prices like MKR and countless others, but it's also somewhat short term mentality to get upset at these lower prices.

I guess I might feel different if I shelled out $20,000 for a Lesser last year and just saw one of the top breeders selling them for $2500! OUCH!

I still love these snakes, I think they are amazing and still plan on buying and breeding the same morphs I wanted since day 1. Just now they will cost me 70%-90% less. I think everyone needs to decide early on what they feel comfortable with in spending/investing. Don't put in what you can't afford to support.

If I bought a Spider today for $1000 and they came down to $250 next year, I could care less. Now, if I would've bought at $5000 and 6 months later see the same breeder selling the same snake for $800, I would go :cens0r: ! Not because of the $$$, but for the feeling of "I got taken!".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Also, Vaughn is dead on about KS. Stop making breeders post prices and you will stop the out in the open undercutting. Undercutting done behind the scenes has less chances of harming the market as a whole.

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Undercutting is still undercutting no matter where it happens......and even if KS were to drop their 'must post a price with ad' rule.....people that wanted to offload a bunch of snakes could still post their low price...or just put them on their website....I don't understand how that rule hurts the market....I would think it helps the market by establishing known prices for a specific group of animals....if no one put prices with ads, you would have to call everyone and shop around.....or just buy from someone that is well known in pay 3 times as much because you don't know what everyone else is selling them for ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

350 spiders what ever.

It takes a good bit of the work out of it if they're so cheap and thusly lessens my thrill. Sorry, but that comment just pissed me off.

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I don't want this to be work...

So what's wrong with me getting a pet snake that happens to be a Spider for what I consider a reasonable price for a pet???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I don't want this to be work...

So what's wrong with me getting a pet snake that happens to be a Spider for what I consider a reasonable price for a pet???

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Nothing. Its just the fact that if you do get a spider at a 'reasonable' price it means that people have been screwed over, prices lowered, and many a thing 'bad'. Its nice to hope and dream, but when an animal that is in the several thou drops to 300$ in a year or so, somthings up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Undercutting is still undercutting no matter where it happens......and even if KS were to drop their 'must post a price with ad' rule.....people that wanted to offload a bunch of snakes could still post their low price...or just put them on their website....I don't understand how that rule hurts the market....I would think it helps the market by establishing known prices for a specific group of animals....if no one put prices with ads, you would have to call everyone and shop around.....or just buy from someone that is well known in pay 3 times as much because you don't know what everyone else is selling them for ;)

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Again, it's up to the customers to get educated and do their research regardless. When you get ready to buy a car, do you go to one dealership, accept the trade in offer they give you and buy the car? Or, do you shop around to different dealerships, check online, research your trade in value, visit 2-3-4 dealerships during the negotiations, negotiate your trade in price, negotiate your vehicle and extras, negotiate the dealer fees, services, etc, etc?

I guess the million dollar question is "What is the known price?" when prices are being lowered each week.

How can you set a price in a free market environment?
You can't...

Trying to see the good in any "bad" situation, sometime I think that shocks to the market might be uncomfortable in the short term, but think about it like this- an unstable market with lots of uncertainty are going to cause some of the fly-by-nighters in it for a quick buck to get out as fast as possible. It will also deter new scumbags and scammers from jumping into the market. Those who are in for the long term will adapt and will be there when its all over. All in all, a market with declining prices could all but eliminate Jimmy and friends. Just something to chew on....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

no its not, its about someone deciding they're pretty much going to ruin a lot of hard work and money and time other people have bestowed upon their animals.



no he hasn't its not black tuesday or whatever, nothing has changed. YET. but this isnt helpful for the long run. i would definatly NOT consider bps as a poor investment choice, there will always be a good ROI. Don't snot up breeders because they told the TRUTH and now one guy is trying to crap on everyone else. Honestly I think there's a reason to his rhyme and time will tell more.

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So which is it? Is the market crashing, or is it still a solid investment? If it's still a solid investment, what's all the hoohaa about?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

as far as i know no one has put their life savings into this- but 1$ or 100$, that guy has potentially screwed over his previous customers and the people that buy his cheap-o's and ruin things for other people.

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You sure about that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

so you're the only one? don't you care about the effort others have put into this and spent years on? that's what pisses me off the most, people thinking "oh i can buy this and its mine and i can do whatever to the market that i want" well forget that! You didn't hunt down these animals, you didn't first work to test their genetics, basiclly i find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to the people that came before you.

Now this is all my way of thinking, and the end.

---

I appreciate all the work people have put into advancing the performance of persoanal computers...Is it nice to buy a PC for $500 today that performs better than the one I bought years ago for $2500??? Yes it is...face it...the prices are going to fall over time...Yes this was kind of a Jerk move on MKR's part but I don't see it as the huge tragedy others do...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

You do realize that to some people this is a living, and the "almighty dollar" is how they feed their families and pay the mortgage

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Yes I do...Like I said, if you're gonna make it a business, better be prepared to deal with these things...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Lol, hardly, but it is irresponsible, and, frankly, stupid to sell an item lower than market value.

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Nothing wrong with having a "sale"...But yes, they did go overboard a bit...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

That was a rather trollish comment, Im pretty sure almost everyone who is on these forums, and who sells these wonderful animals for a living/side job love the critters as well.

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I would like to think that too...but I'll bet if the money ran out, you would realize some love them a lot less than others

Sho, you could argue your points to death with others on this site......your perspective comes from someone with no intention of breeding and you can't wait until some of these morphs reach pet prices where you can finally afford them. Thats totally OK, but you're never going to reach the end when you're arguing with people looking at it from an investment/breeding perspective.

What we are saying here is that it was a real bonehead move on MKR's part to dump lessers for those prices all at once like that. He could have moved the same number of lessers in a slightly longer period of time (um like, 3 days as opposed to 1) if he priced them at 20% below market value, as opposed to 50-75% like he did.

Well lets look at it like this Its buissness, and most people out there like a deal, why did ford and every other car dealer give employee priceing last year, because they know if they can lower the prices to a point where they still make a desent profit yet there sales go up they make more money in the end.

Im not trying to sound rude but no breeder is going to breed just for the love of snakes, or the prices of there product would'nt be so high Money makes the world go round, I really wish people would stop thinking that this isnt so, just because they feel guilty about there greed. If you dont agree with me try living for 30 days with no money and see.

any how its also supply and demand BP morphs are getting ridiculess there are just so many different ones coming out each year, of course the new morphs are going to hold a high value untill the market is flooded with them. prices are going to go down regardless.

I guess though that only the wealthy can care for a lesser platnum since there demands are so much higher then a normal ball python.

People know everything you just said.

The point is....MKRs sold animals for almost half of what everyone else is offering. You don't see one car dealership selling cars for half the price of the one for sale down the road do you?? Instead of putting mojaves for sale at $800 and causing the mini-panic that they have....they could have put them at $1300, still been below everyone else, and still sold out in a few days. Selling for $800 seems to have been a stupid business move on their part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shhhli
no its not, its about someone deciding they're pretty much going to ruin a lot of hard work and money and time other people have bestowed upon their animals.



no he hasn't its not black tuesday or whatever, nothing has changed. YET. but this isnt helpful for the long run. i would definatly NOT consider bps as a poor investment choice, there will always be a good ROI. Don't snot up breeders because they told the TRUTH and now one guy is trying to crap on everyone else. Honestly I think there's a reason to his rhyme and time will tell more.
So which is it? Is the market crashing, or is it still a solid investment? If it's still a solid investment, what's all the hoohaa about?

Ummm my answer is still: no he hasn't its not black tuesday or whatever, nothing has changed. YET. but this isnt helpful for the long run. i would definatly NOT consider bps as a poor investment choice, there will always be a good ROI. Don't snot up breeders because they told the TRUTH and now one guy is trying to crap on everyone else. Honestly I think there's a reason to his rhyme and time will tell more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shhhli
as far as i know no one has put their life savings into this- but 1$ or 100$, that guy has potentially screwed over his previous customers and the people that buy his cheap-o's and ruin things for other people.

You sure about that?
am i sure that he's screwing over customers previous and future, yes i am. am i sure no one has invested life savings? no. but then again, most people do it for fun, business, or money. and near everyone ive seen goes by the Dont buy unless you can afford to lose It bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shhhli
so you're the only one? don't you care about the effort others have put into this and spent years on? that's what pisses me off the most, people thinking "oh i can buy this and its mine and i can do whatever to the market that i want" well forget that! You didn't hunt down these animals, you didn't first work to test their genetics, basiclly i find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to the people that came before you.

Now this is all my way of thinking, and the end.
I appreciate all the work people have put into advancing the performance of persoanal computers...Is it nice to buy a PC for $500 today that performs better than the one I bought years ago for $2500??? Yes it is...face it...the prices are going to fall over time...Yes this was kind of a Jerk move on MKR's part but I don't see it as the huge tragedy others do...

yes prices will go down, but snakes and computers are about the same as...snakes and computers. people are making good solid investments into something that should be good and solid. YES EVERYTHING WILL GO DOWN. but there is absolutly NO reason in my mind that ANYTHING should drop from 25k to 2.5k in a season- there has been no surplus of lessers to drive down 25k. its simply NOT following how the market would flow. Its not following any rule of thumb, its just one jerk screwing people. you dont as said because you're pony'ing up on getting these as pets. others have worked hard for their money and their animals- imo you came off as some vulture waiting for people to go crazy and ruin the market for a quick buck so you can get what you want asap with no regard to others. that's my way of thinking and the end.

For the sake of the good breeders out there...I hope new morphs keep coming along, and bringing further opportunities with them...I do appreciate what you folks do...I also appreciate the opportunity to own some of these amazing animals and not just drooling at them on my computer screen!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

For the sake of the good breeders out there...I hope new morphs keep coming along, and bringing further opportunities with them...I do appreciate what you folks do...I also appreciate the opportunity to own some of these amazing animals and not just drooling at them on my computer screen!

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well the rate you want it to happen means that those breeders you appreciate getting stuck in the end.
.02$

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

yes prices will go down, but snakes and computers are about the same as...snakes and computers. people are making good solid investments into something that should be good and solid. YES EVERYTHING WILL GO DOWN. but there is absolutly NO reason in my mind that ANYTHING should drop from 25k to 2.5k in a season- there has been no surplus of lessers to drive down 25k. its simply NOT following how the market would flow. Its not following any rule of thumb, its just one jerk screwing people. you dont as said because you're pony'ing up on getting these as pets. others have worked hard for their money and their animals- imo you came off as some vulture waiting for people to go crazy and ruin the market for a quick buck so you can get what you want asap with no regard to others. that's my way of thinking and the end.

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It's getting tough to read your ramblings, but yes, wouldn't it be grand if everyone followed the rules!!!

Okay....
yes prices will go down, but snakes and computers are about the same as...snakes and computers. (this would be a joke)

people are making good solid investments into something that should be good and solid. YES EVERYTHING WILL GO DOWN. (its a good investment. prices on any good eventually drop, duh)

but there is absolutly NO reason in my mind that ANYTHING should drop from 25k to 2.5k in a season- there has been no surplus of lessers to drive down 25k. (just reread it until you get it. its kind of obvious)

its simply NOT following how the market would flow. (its not following how the market would flow- dropping so much when there is no excess and people are still willing to pay 25k)

Its not following any rule of thumb, its just one jerk screwing people. (tru dat)

you dont as said because you're pony'ing up on getting these as pets. (person making the comment you dont care as much as breeders who invest- could have been worded better i agree)

others have worked hard for their money and their animals- imo you came off as some vulture waiting for people to go crazy and ruin the market for a quick buck so you can get what you want asap with no regard to others. (you came across as someone wanting what you wanted no matter what it costs others)

that's my way of thinking and the end. (thats my explination the end)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kesosip

Im not trying to sound rude but no breeder is going to breed just for the love of snakes, or the prices of there product would'nt be so high Money makes the world go round, I really wish people would stop thinking that this isnt so, just because they feel guilty about there greed. If you dont agree with me try living for 30 days with no money and see.

any how its also supply and demand BP morphs are getting ridiculess there are just so many different ones coming out each year, of course the new morphs are going to hold a high value untill the market is flooded with them. prices are going to go down regardless.

I guess though that only the wealthy can care for a lesser platnum since there demands are so much higher then a normal ball python.

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I am going to have to disagree with you. I plan on breeding, but I don't expect to make a living off it. I will be completely happy if I can have a self sustaining hobby. Heck, I would be a bit disapointed if I never sold one, but I did get into bps because I love them. This is something that really sustains me more as a person, than financially. I don't know what you are talking about with this greed thing? :confuzd: It's also slightly offensive, with that broad generalizations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I am going to have to disagree with you. I plan on breeding, but I don't expect to make a living off it. I will be completely happy if I can have a self sustaining hobby. Heck, I would be a bit disapointed if I never sold one, but I did get into bps because I love them. This is something that really sustains me more as a person, than financially. I don't know what you are talking about with this greed thing? :confuzd: It's also slightly offensive, with that broad generalizations.

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I agree with tigerlilly. i Dont plan on making money, just funding a habit. OMG how dare i invest money made from pastels into spiders, and then bumbles into my love of all things recessive + clown. The only way for me to get a lesser is to breed up to it. And yet im greedy?

Hmmm I guess Christie and I and a lot of others are very misguided then since all we are doing is for the love the snakes right now. Some of us haven't seen an egg pip, we are investing our time and our hard earned money with no assurance of a financial return ever. That's about love and committment unless I'm sadly mistaken.

Sure when a breeder gets enough snakes to have to have employees and so forth, you better also be a damn fine businessperson or you're sunk but sorry I just don't buy the "greed" terminology. Even before you're big enough to need staff, if you don't mind your pennies well, you won't have enough to support your collection properly...that's not about greed...that's about common sense.

It's not greedy to be a smart businessperson. It is greedy to dump morphs on a market for a short term gain. It is greedy to love the money more than the snakes so that you push them to breed when they aren't in top form or big enough. I know breeders that have snakes that don't produce every year and they don't push or expect them too. If they were "greedy" they wouldn't care.

Most breeders aren't the puppy mill type. They mind their bottom line and I'm glad they do or they wouldn't be around to sell me and you top notch snakes each year, but they also obviously love these snakes. Ask Kara, Kevin, Ralph, Adam, Joe Compel, Tracey and Dave over at VPI, etc. if they've lost that sense of wonder when an egg pips....I would bet my last snake buying dollar they haven't. Sorry but I don't call that greed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shhhli

well the rate you want it to happen means that those breeders you appreciate getting stuck in the end.
.02$

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Ooohhhhhhhhh....so I'm hosing the breeders now...I thought it was MKR???

I have one Pastel male that I bought for $350...how am I sticking it to the breeders???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sho220

I also find it interesting how a lot of breeders go on and on about what a great investment ball's are, and how anyone can get in on it and recoup their initial investment many, many, many times over...it's better than the stock market, it's a sure thing, it's money in the bank, this is just the beginning, blah blah blah...

Come on $350 SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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That is sticking it to the breeders you claim to appreciate. Maybe they'll remember that when you go to them hoping to get a deal.

Ooohhhhhhhhh....so I'm hosing the breeders now...I thought it was MKR???

I have one Pastel male that I bought for $350...how am I sticking it to the breeders???

How is that rational thought? I'm saying you want spiders to be 350. okay. well last time i checked a good one was in the 3k range. You're wanting the prices to go down, thusly SOMETHING has happened to spiders and its most likely not to the 'honest' breeder's benefit.
Where did the pastel come in? When did i say what you bought now had anything to do with what you're wanting of these high end morphs?
Dont twist my words.

annnd i agree with elevatethis.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

That is sticking it to the breeders you claim to appreciate. Maybe they'll remember that when you go to them hoping to get a deal.

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How??? They're going to sell them for what they're valued at...I'm simply saying that for an animal I don't intend to turn into an investment, I'm only willing to pay so much. If I wait for the price to go down, I'm sticking it to the breeder?

And don't worry, I won't go to breeders looking to get a deal...if it's priced too high, I'll live without it...

This whole topic boils down to morals and ethics. Unfortunately the market can't forsee things like this because they are unique from person to person. Business is business whether it be unethical or not, its just harder for those people who have morals and ethics to accept these behaviors as acceptable.

I agree with those that want to breed for the love of the snakes. I started to think long term but events like this one threw a huge monkey wrench into the picture. I think the only way to combat unethical business practices is through quality. Quality alone is the one thing that sets apart one mojave priced at 800 dollars and one priced at 1500. And along with quality comes the business relationship encountered during the process which will hopefully retain customers. An educated consumer will seek out the quality, and an educated consumer will most likely have better success in his own endeavours.

I think things will come full circle in due time. Take Enron for example...they were the prime example of success, unethical practices, and eventually downfall. Where is Kenny Lay now? Died from a heart attack, probably from all the stress he encountered as a result of his negligence. I'm putting my money on karma...its all you can really do, no matter what you can't stop people from living or doing what they want whether it be blatently wrong or not. Time can be the only judge, and how we deal with the events that arise is what determines who will sink or swim.

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Originally Posted by shhhli

Ooohhhhhhhhh....so I'm hosing the breeders now...I thought it was MKR???

I have one Pastel male that I bought for $350...how am I sticking it to the breeders???

How is that rational thought? I'm saying you want spiders to be 350. okay. well last time i checked a good one was in the 3k range. You're wanting the prices to go down, thusly SOMETHING has happened to spiders and its most likely not to the 'honest' breeder's benefit.
Where did the pastel come in? When did i say what you bought now had anything to do with what you're wanting of these high end morphs?
Dont twist my words.

annnd i agree with elevatethis.

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Ok...I was exaggerating...350 is a little low...but 3 grand is way high...and yes, something has happened to Spiders...everyone is breeding them...thus causing the supply to exceed demand, and the price to go down. I would consider a spider a very common morph, not a "high end" morph.

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Originally Posted by sho220

...everyone is breeding them...thus causing the supply to exceed demand, and the price to go down. I would consider a spider a very common morph, not a "high end" morph.

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This is exactly what happens with any market, but the prices complained about in the original post do not follow the rules of supply and demand. It is just someone lowering their prices to an extreem level in order to make a very fast sell. If they do that on a regular basis, it will end up hurting the quality breeders because people will go for the lowest price first and if they see a price 10 times what another is, they will hold out for the lower priced snake to become available again.

I didnt call a spider a high end. I was referring to these animals MKR is ripping. regardless, dont tell me what i already know.

Here's a question for ya..... got to ask, why did he do it?


Do you really think he needs the money?

Did he do it to screw with other breeders just for fun?

I don't think the issue with what MKR did has much to do with money and more to do with some sort of mind game.

Kinda like this scenario.... A bus full of school kids is headed down the road. All seems fine, smooth ride, the kids are all chattering away. Driver sees a big hole up the road on the other side of the road.... so he deliberatly swerves to hit it. Gives the whole bus a big jolt... almost knocks everyone out of there seats.

Kids all stop chattering at what just happened.

Then all returns to normal.

Can you relate that to what has just happened?

Driver didn't need to hit the whole, he just wanted to so as to get a kick out of it and the reaction it caused!

Thats what i was wondering- who in their right mind would purposly ruin something that get them several big dollars?

And others have noted its right before Daytona..

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

Here's a question for ya..... got to ask, why did he do it?


Do you really think he needs the money?

Did he do it to screw with other breeders just for fun?

I don't think the issue with what MKR did has much to do with money and more to do with some sort of mind game.

Kinda like this scenario.... A bus full of school kids is headed down the road. All seems fine, smooth ride, the kids are all chattering away. Driver sees a big hole up the road on the other side of the road.... so he deliberatly swerves to hit it. Gives the whole bus a big jolt... almost knocks everyone out of there seats.

Kids all stop chattering at what just happened.

Then all returns to normal.

Can you relate that to what has just happened?

Driver didn't need to hit the whole, he just wanted to so as to get a kick out of it and the reaction it caused!

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Maybe he is in finacinal trouble and he needs the money for his kids or health bills....I dont know the guy...but if you really needed the money to help your family....I think anyone might sell low. Maybe he needs it to fund a gambling problem? Who knows?

It's probably stupid for the long-term of your business, but I dont think it fair to call him "unethical" when we dont know the full stituation.

Maybe we could try and get back on the discussion.
How low will they go?


Is there any solid guesstimates?

For example,
Albino Boas have dropped from $1000-$1200 on average to $600-$750 in the last 2yrs. I estimate Albino Boas may come down to $500ea on average next year and should hover around that price for the next 2-3, maybe even 4yrs.


Motley Boas may drop from $4500-$5000 to $3500 on average next year and will be expected to stay above $2000 for another 3-4, maybe even 5yrs.

Of course, quality and other variations play a role in pricing, but on average that's my expectation and anticipation on these Boa morphs.

Would anyone have thought Lessers would have come down from $20,000 to $5000 and even $2500 in less than a year?

Spiders from $5000 to $1000-$1500, Mojaves from $4000 to $800-$1400, Albinos from $2500 to $1000-$1500? Why?

What are your guesstimates and expectations for certain BP morphs within the next 1-3-5yrs? How low will they be driven and why? Is this supply & demand driven? Has the demand died down or has the supply increased so much to justify a 70%-90% drop in price by some/most of the breeders in less than a year?

As for why MKR dropped prices? My guess is about $70,000 in quick sales, who knows.

Personally, I think they're just dumping all of their males and will be getting all of the females up to weight as fast as possible. Next year or the year after they will probably flood the market with white snakes for $1,000 a pop. What I don't understand is why they didn't wholesale the males instead of retailing them for the same price? It doesn't seem like any of the big breeders are speaking up, so who knows what's going on behind the scenes. :confused:

I don't think it was just financial...it's been pointed out several times that he could have sold all those animals at less of a discount than what he did easily...I'm thinking it was for all the exposure he has gotten...although I'm not sure this is the kind of exposure he was looking for...

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Originally Posted by Mendel's Balls

Maybe he is in finacinal trouble and he needs the money for his kids or health bills....I dont know the guy...but if you really needed the money to help your family....I think anyone might sell low. Maybe he needs it to fund a gambling problem? Who knows?

It's probably stupid for the long-term of your business, but I dont think it fair to call him "unethical" when we dont know the full stituation.

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I think it is more then fair to call it "unethical".... there are other ways to get around a debt when you have a business as big as he does..... probably a small loan would cover any debt that required him selling the amount of animals he did at the prices he did. Not to mention he sold those animals in a public area, he could of sold them at that price to another breeder behind the scenes without causing the problems he has.

[QUOTE= It's probably stupid for the long-term of your business, but I dont think it fair to call him "unethical" when we dont know the full stituation.[/QUOTE]

Although family problems, health bills etc. might be contributing factors and perhaps explantions for his actions it doesn't change the fact that what he did was an unethical business practice in the market he was in. If it wasn't it wouldn't have gotten such an uproar on this forum. I was looking into the ethics of his business only not his business and personal life as a whole. Would I be able to understand why he sold those snakes if his son or something had a terminal desease and needed to pay for treatment, sure I would. Would it change the fact that it was unethical, I don't think so, but thats my opinion. I can respect and see what you're saying though, its unfair to judge without knowing all the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

As for why MKR dropped prices? My guess is about $70,000 in quick sales, who knows.

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This would be my guess. If you produce alot of babies you either have to house them for a while until they all sell or drop the price dramatically and sell them all in a day or two. Then you don't have to house as many for as long. My arguement to that is that if you are breeding, you need to have the resources to properly house the babies for as long as you need to, so that shouldn't be an issue.

I don't think that he would be maliciously trying to screw everybody else. Why do that when you can make alot more money by maintaining market prices, or reducing prices to 5 or 10% below?