Update on Fluffy's clutch + pics

No its called "opinion" not fairy tail. And what humans cannot see or feel many of them believe they do not exist. But Im one of those few who believe in things that I cannot see...My two cents...

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Originally Posted by JLC

Why is your way "right" and her way "wrong?" (And I could ask her the same question.) BP's have been maternally incubating for as long as there have been BP's...and there are a LOT of BP's out there in the wild...so it can't exactly be "wrong" for the snake.

Personally, I would choose to take the eggs and allow the female a faster recovery. But that doesn't mean maternal incubation is wrong. This is very similar to the live vs. f/t debate, I think. The snakes can thrive both ways...so why does it matter if someone else chooses to do it differeintly than you do?

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Key phrase, "out there in the wild". When we decide to bring snakes inside and have them live in a plastic box and sleep under a flower pot bottom, then it is our responsibility to do what is best for them. But maybe we should get back to her/his whole reasoning and that is because he/she thinks the animal wants it that way.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Why is your way "right" and her way "wrong?" (And I could ask her the same question.) BP's have been maternally incubating for as long as there have been BP's...and there are a LOT of BP's out there in the wild...so it can't exactly be "wrong" for the snake.

Personally, I would choose to take the eggs and allow the female a faster recovery. But that doesn't mean maternal incubation is wrong. This is very similar to the live vs. f/t debate, I think. The snakes can thrive both ways...so why does it matter if someone else chooses to do it differeintly than you do?

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Yes. I agree with you. And a debating is not something I like to do because we all have different opinions and we'll always argue because when debating we just cannot change people minds even if "our" way seems right (not saying mine is) but debating is very useless, especailly over the internet.:(

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I realize there are probably no large-scale breeders that practice maternal incubation with their BP's. I just hope that anyone posting on this thread would read it in its entirety, including the links I posted that include theories backed with hard evidence as to why maternal incubation is actually beneficial to the neonates compared to artificial incubation, and that it also does not seem to cause much stress for the female incubating. This data was taken from animals in captivity. I posted the links to these lab reports in this thread when a member requested articles about maternal incubation.

So, just please read everything in attempts to understand why I am doing what I am doing before forming the opinion that I do not care about the health of my animals or that I am not doing what is right for them.

(Jamie, this is not directed at your above post.)

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Re-posting this because I think it is important and don't want it to get lost in the recent posts.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Key phrase, "out there in the wild". When we decide to bring snakes inside and have them live in a plastic box and sleep under a flower pot bottom, then it is our responsibility to do what is best for them. But maybe we should get back to her/his whole reasoning and that is because he/she thinks the animal wants it that way.

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In a way I agree with you. We have responsibity for our charges that we take from the wild. But thats why I try to have everything right for my snake. And try not to change anything from her wild state. Thats just what I believe in. And in all my tanks I make mine like the beauty of the wild. But ofcourse of my snake has a problem or mites or bugs or anything liek that I change it because I agree if an animal is in our care we must provide for htem, and I do what I believe I should. Plz lets not argue about this because we all know it doesnt get anywhere....

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Key phrase, "out there in the wild". When we decide to bring snakes inside and have them live in a plastic box and sleep under a flower pot bottom, then it is our responsibility to do what is best for them. But maybe we should get back to her/his whole reasoning and that is because he/she thinks the animal wants it that way.

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I totally agree that we have to do what's best for them when we have them in captivity. But different people are going to percieve "what's best" quite differently at times. If someone else maintains thriving, healthy snakes, then what does it matter if their methods differ from yours?

Hey Rapture how do the eggs looks now? :)

Do you feel they may hatch soon. I cant wait to see pics of pipping and babies comming out of the eggs.:D

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I realize there are probably no large-scale breeders that practice maternal incubation with their BP's. I just hope that anyone posting on this thread would read it in its entirety, including the links I posted that include theories backed with hard evidence as to why maternal incubation is actually beneficial to the neonates compared to artificial incubation, and that it also does not seem to cause much stress for the female incubating. This data was taken from animals in captivity. I posted the links to these lab reports in this thread when a member requested articles about maternal incubation.

So, just please read everything in attempts to understand why I am doing what I am doing before forming the opinion that I do not care about the health of my animals or that I am not doing what is right for them.

(Jamie, this is not directed at your above post.)

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Understood. You made a decision based on articles. On that point I will say that there is a lot of false information thrown around as fact in the form of scientific articles. I have been following this thread and am excited for you that you are so close to hatching some babies. You certainly have your right to do with your animals what you feel is correct. But I have the right to point out why I think it is wrong and I certainly have the right to correct people who agree with you based on artifical human feelings that they have assigned to their animals. Best of luck and hopefully no hard feelings on your end! :)

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Originally Posted by JLC

I totally agree that we have to do what's best for them when we have them in captivity. But different people are going to percieve "what's best" quite differently at times. If someone else maintains thriving, healthy snakes, then what does it matter if their methods differ from yours?

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Since none of us are scientists, what's best has to be based on successes and failures of the breeders who have been doing this for years. Remember when that moron came here and told everyone that the 92-95 was too high of a temp for Balls? He made something up and got a whole message board (not this one luckily) of people to believe him and follow his word. I prefer to live my life based in some sort of reality and to believe that what works for the people that do it most and best, is as close to the right way as we are going to come.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Understood. You made a decision based on articles. On that point I will say that there is a lot of false information thrown around as fact in the form of scientific articles. I have been following this thread and am excited for you that you are so close to hatching some babies. You certainly have your right to do with your animals what you feel is correct. But I have the right to point out why I think it is wrong and I certainly have the right to correct people who agree with you based on artifical human feelings that they have assigned to their animals. Best of luck and hopefully no hard feelings on your end! :)

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Well thats why everyone is different in the world. ::shrugs:: If we all agreed on everything what a boring very simple world that'd be.

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Originally Posted by JLC

But different people are going to percieve "what's best" quite differently at times. If someone else maintains thriving, healthy snakes, then what does it matter if their methods differ from yours?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

But I have the right to point out why I think it is wrong and I certainly have the right to correct people who agree with you based on artifical human feelings that they have assigned to their animals. Best of luck and hopefully no hard feelings on your end! :)

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Agreed. I also just don't want people thinking that those are the kinds of reasons that I have chosen this route. Thank you, and no hard feelings here.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Hey Rapture how do the eggs looks now? :)

Do you feel they may hatch soon. I cant wait to see pics of pipping and babies comming out of the eggs.:D

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None of the eggs have gone bad as far as molding or discoloration. My biggest concern is that one of them especially has lost much of its full round shape. I am not sure exactly what day to expect them to pip at, as they have been incubating in fluctuant ambient temperatures, but today is day 52 and I think I can reasonably expect some action around day 60.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I realize there are probably no large-scale breeders that practice maternal incubation with their BP's. ...

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I really want to stay out of the debate, but... I was a visitor at a (very) large scale breeder's facility a couple months ago. He has an entire wall dedicated to large double door beverage cooler incubators (at least, I perceived them to be converted coolers). He was showing me around the facility, and pulled out a tub in one of his racks. Inside was a large female ball tightly coiled around her eggs. I don't know how many females he had incubating their own eggs, but he definitely had at least one.

Steve

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

I really want to stay out of the debate, but... I was a visitor at a (very) large scale breeder's facility a couple months ago. He has an entire wall dedicated to large double door beverage cooler incubators (at least, I perceived them to be converted coolers). He was showing me around the facility, and pulled out a tub in one of his racks. Inside was a large female ball tightly coiled around her eggs. I don't know how many females he had incubating their own eggs, but he definitely had at least one.

Steve

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Care to divulge the breeder? Also, did he just show you a nice morph and she had happened to lay eggs or did he point out that he was maternally incubating?

Where is the "beating a dead horse" smiley when you need it?


Rapture...good luck on the eggs...can't wait to see the babies!!!

I did read that article, but I did not think it is adequate enough to relate it to captive breeding. First you are taking wild animals, and you can not know the history of these females. Secondly they incubated on aspen. I don't know of any articles that recommends that as a substrate, and the humidity levels were not measured. It's possible a lot of the the moisture loss would be a result of the incubating technique alone. Thirdly the study focused solely on the eggs, and the care of the mother was never measured. They say they were apparently healthy, but based on what criteria? Anyway, I wasn't very impressed with the article.

I agree that this subject is a touchy one. Maternal incubation is done, but it's not very common due to the success of artificial incubation. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but that too much emphasis is placed on the females rights to hatch her own eggs, the beauty of the process or other intangible measurements. I'm rooting for these eggs to hatch as well, and I hope they are some healthy babies. :banana:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Care to divulge the breeder? Also, did he just show you a nice morph and she had happened to lay eggs or did he point out that he was maternally incubating?

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Jamie,
As you've probably already figured out, I don't like to drop names. But I think that in this instance, no harm would be done. Mike Wilbanks of Constrictors Unlimited is the breeder I was referring to. The female that was incubating maternally was at least a normal looking female. I have no idea what her genetics were, or the genetics of the sire. If I recall correctly, his incubators may have been full at the time. However, with Bob Clark right around the corner, and others that Mike is affiliated with, I'm sure he would have been able to come up with an incubator if he felt it was necessary. Obviously, if he has a wall full of incubators, he prefers that method.

Since I DID state his name, I need to also state that except for what I stated as fact, my statements in this message are either opinions or suppositions based on my observations.

Steve

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Originally Posted by sho220

Where is the "beating a dead horse" smiley when you need it?


Rapture...good luck on the eggs...can't wait to see the babies!!!

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Although I don't agree that its been beaten anywhere near to death, here ya go!

http://www.glassreptiles.com/pictures/horse.gif

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I did read that article, but I did not think it is adequate enough to relate it to captive breeding. First you are taking wild animals, and you can not know the history of these females. Secondly they incubated on aspen. I don't know of any articles that recommends that as a substrate, and the humidity levels were not measured. It's possible a lot of the the moisture loss would be a result of the incubating technique alone. Thirdly the study focused solely on the eggs, and the care of the mother was never measured. They say they were apparently healthy, but based on what criteria? Anyway, I wasn't very impressed with the article.

I agree that this subject is a touchy one. Maternal incubation is done, but it's not very common due to the success of artificial incubation. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but that too much emphasis is placed on the females rights to hatch her own eggs, the beauty of the process or other intangible measurements. I'm rooting for these eggs to hatch as well, and I hope they are some healthy babies. :banana:

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Excellent points all around!

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

Jamie,
As you've probably already figured out, I don't like to drop names. But I think that in this instance, no harm would be done. Mike Wilbanks of Constrictors Unlimited is the breeder I was referring to. The female that was incubating maternally was at least a normal looking female. I have no idea what her genetics were, or the genetics of the sire. If I recall correctly, his incubators may have been full at the time. However, with Bob Clark right around the corner, and others that Mike is affiliated with, I'm sure he would have been able to come up with an incubator if he felt it was necessary. Obviously, if he has a wall full of incubators, he prefers that method.

Since I DID state his name, I need to also state that except for what I stated as fact, my statements in this message are either opinions or suppositions based on my observations.

Steve

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Interesting...

Maybe he was playing mad scientist. I don't know him or Bob Clark but I guess when you are a big guy you might want to play doctor sometimes! (are scientists always doctors?) Very cool that you got to see his facility though!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Interesting...

Maybe he was playing mad scientist. I don't know him or Bob Clark but I guess when you are a big guy you might want to play doctor sometimes! (are scientists always doctors?) Very cool that you got to see his facility though!

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Very impressive place, and about 30 minutes from where I live. Bob Clark's place is even closer (I think!), but I haven't been there yet. I'm not sure exactly where it is, but Morph King is around here somewhere as well. Haven't met them yet. When I left Mike's place, I carried 4 snakes out with me, pastel male and 3 normal females. It wasn't that heavy a load, though, because my wallet was substantially lighter!

Steve

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

Very impressive place, and about 30 minutes from where I live. Bob Clark's place is even closer (I think!), but I haven't been there yet. I'm not sure exactly where it is, but Morph King is around here somewhere as well. Haven't met them yet. When I left Mike's place, I carried 4 snakes out with me, pastel male and 3 normal females. It wasn't that heavy a load, though, because my wallet was substantially lighter!

Steve

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Very cool! I met Bob in Daytona and heard he has a pretty cool little BMW. :P I also have a friend that looks a lot like Mike. Weird...

I wouldn't visit Morph King unless I was looking to buy a used car... ;)

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Very cool! I met Bob in Daytona and heard he has a pretty cool little BMW. :P I also have a friend that looks a lot like Mike. Weird...

I wouldn't visit Morph King unless I was looking to buy a used car... ;)

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I met Bob in Dallas last month. Seems like a nice guy. Didn't actually meet Fluffy, but I saw her (him?). Don't know about a BMW. Mike had his Black eyed Leucy in Dallas. Oh, man! What a beautiful snake!!!!!

I actually would like to visit Morph King. I'd like to see what kind of operation they have!

Steve

By the way, TWO of the four snakes I bought from Mike have bitten me! One of them twice. They are the only snakes in my collection that have bitten me except for babies, and they don't count!

Steve

(Thats not to say that I think Mike is responsible. Just thought it was interesting.)

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

By the way, TWO of the four snakes I bought from Mike have bitten me! One of them twice. They are the only snakes in my collection that have bitten me except for babies, and they don't count!

Steve

(Thats not to say that I think Mike is responsible. Just thought it was interesting.)

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The angry ones should make good breeders! :snake:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

The angry ones should make good breeders! :snake:

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I like that! I always figured if they were more aggressive towards me, they should at least be good eaters.

Steve

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

I like that! I always figured if they were more aggressive towards me, they should at least be good eaters.

Steve

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I have some angry little ones too...

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I have some angry little ones too...

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You turn nice little ones into angry little ones too.....;)

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Originally Posted by stangs13

You turn nice little ones into angry little ones too.....;)

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I can always count on you Justin for these kinds of worthwhile contributions. :P

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I can always count on you Justin for these kinds of worthwhile contributions. :P

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All in a days work.;)

just want to say... it bothers me when people assume animals don't have maternal feelings or don't have feelings or emotions etc.

just because WE can't measure those feelings doesn't make them non-existant.

kinda like animals communicating with one another. some people don't believe they can... some do. unless we learn their language, we really can't say for certain either way.

just my 17 cents worth!

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

just want to say... it bothers me when people assume animals don't have maternal feelings or don't have feelings or emotions etc.

just because WE can't measure those feelings doesn't make them non-existant.

kinda like animals communicating with one another. some people don't believe they can... some do. unless we learn their language, we really can't say for certain either way.

just my 17 cents worth!

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I agree with you every bit.

re-edited; I know some people who cover up their emotions and sometimes seem like they dont have an heart. I also who knew some teachers while I grew up who didnt seem to have feelings. But we all know they do. And just because they do show, doesnt mean they have none.

i agree with you sapphire ;) i've met a few people like that myself.

You are comparing a complex animal, like humans, to a very simply animal, like a ball python. I would disagree that they have an emotional structure. They just don't have the brain structure to support that. Not to say that I don't believe they have a unique spirit. This is such an intangible thing, and I try to base my animal care off more substantial information. Not to sound snide, but do you believe a bumblebee has an emotional response? (I'm really genuinely curious)

This is just one of those subjects that we'll have to agree to disagree. It happens in large and diverse communities like this, and I'm impressed that this thread has not degenerated into a name-calling fest.

christie,

i believe that every living thing has a soul, a spirit and i believe they all have emotions and feelings. i've felt a tree cry when it was hacked down. i believe that every living thing has the ability to feel, and has the ability for emotions... because i don't believe it's all about the size of the brain... but the size of their soul!

and i'm cool with agreeing to disagree... i don't expect everyone to believe what i do.

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

christie,

i believe that every living thing has a soul, a spirit and i believe they all have emotions and feelings. i've felt a tree cry when it was hacked down. i believe that every living thing has the ability to feel, and has the ability for emotions... because i don't believe it's all about the size of the brain... but the size of their soul!

and i'm cool with agreeing to disagree... i don't expect everyone to believe what i do.

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That's cool. I know we celebrate very different things, and have different beliefs. I've never met anyone who celebrated such things, but you have such a wonderful outlook and always look for good. I respect that. :hug:

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

christie,

i believe that every living thing has a soul, a spirit and i believe they all have emotions and feelings. i've felt a tree cry when it was hacked down. i believe that every living thing has the ability to feel, and has the ability for emotions... because i don't believe it's all about the size of the brain... but the size of their soul!

and i'm cool with agreeing to disagree... i don't expect everyone to believe what i do.

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Wow. I nearly cried of heart break when our neighbours cut down this BEAUTIFUL oak tree in their backyard that was against our fence. Beauty it was. There were always all sorts of critters of all sorts of sizes inthat tree and it was jsut soo big. Probably over 100 yrs old. So sad. I too could feel the loss of life from it. And believe even the most disgusting orginisims have souls. Maybe its just my religion that God created anything that lives and dies to have a soul. Big or small. And I hate it when people say 'Oh those animals are stupid, they have small brains" Well their brain fits their body. If we were smaller we'd still have brains to fit our body. And everyone says humans are the smartest lifeforms on this earth. Well if we're talking about brain size now then the blue whale has the moust soulness and smartness in the whole world. But just because we're humans doesnt mean we have to be selfish and always aply things only to ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

Wow. I nearly cried of heart break when our neighbours cut down this BEAUTIFUL oak tree in their backyard that was against our fence. Beauty it was. There were always all sorts of critters of all sorts of sizes inthat tree and it was jsut soo big. Probably over 100 yrs old. So sad. I too could feel the loss of life from it. And believe even the most disgusting orginisims have souls. Maybe its just my religion that God created anything that lives and dies to have a soul. Big or small. And I hate it when people say 'Oh those animals are stupid, they have small brains" Well their brain fits their body. If we were smaller we'd still have brains to fit our body. And everyone says humans are the smartest lifeforms on this earth. Well if we're talking about brain size now then the blue whale has the moust soulness and smartness in the whole world. But just because we're humans doesnt mean we have to be selfish and always aply things only to ourselves.

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Ok, I'm not saying any animals are stupid/disgusting nor do I base my ideas on brain size. (there is a degree of structure to every brain) I don't believe it's ok to pull the wings off a bug. I teach my children to respect all living things. Again, we'll just agree to disagree. :D

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

Ok, I'm not saying any animals are stupid/disgusting nor do I base my ideas on brain size. (there is a degree of structure to every brain) I don't believe it's ok to pull the wings off a bug. I teach my children to respect all living things. Again, we'll just agree to disagree. :D

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I love agreeing on things. So I do agree to disagree:) :D

Alright, just for the sake of arguement (arguement in terms of healthy debate, not a negative connotation...) I've got a couple points to share. Not trying to offend, just something you should consider.

Those taking the spiritual outlook on things- you discount our theory that ball pythons don't have human emotions because we can't measure them. In fact, we CAN measure the ability of organisms to feel these things based on studies of their brains. Most, if not all, reptiles lack the more advanced centers of the brain for creating these emotions. Emotions are nothing more than chemical reactions to stimuli that take place in the brain. This may sound disturbing to some but its just the truth.

Furthermore, the latter approach rejects our hypothesis on the notion that we reject what we can't measure. In the very next breath, you take a stance on something that you don't have any proof for either. What's up with that? Run that logic through and your arguement comes crumbling down.

If you feel the strong urge to believe it, then believe it. My concern is that others come to this site and read portions of a thread advocating maternal incubation when it is, in fact, in the absolute best interests of the animal to incubate artificially the eggs.

Rapture, I wish you the best of luck and have no doubt you love your snakes and are totally psyched about seeing those babies come out. You mentioned that one of the eggs has started to lose shape a little bit...totally natural and if all is well the others will follow suit as well. That's basically just the babies getting ready to hatch. Try candling the eggs at this point, you might be able to see the embryos move around a little bit here and there. You definitely did your homework on maternal incubation and I think all will be well.

The point here is that all the while Rapture's female has been incubating these eggs...she could have been eating and regaining the mass she's given up in her reproductive effort. That notion combined with the fact that in the long run, hatch rates are higher for artificial incubation, proves that artificial incubation in, in fact, in the better interests of all parties involved.

When animals breed they take a risk. When we breed our animals we take a risk. Sh ehad the eggs that we let her have tso let her have them because that was the risk someone takes when deciding if they wanted to breed and take it. But I disagree with a lot fo science and how scientist think. They can think that they lack emotion censing chemicals or a piece in their brain that says they are lacking it. I dont care, not liek we can ask a snake and say "How do you feel"? We cannot. And every animal and human varies with their bodily functions who knows that piece missing may not really be missing may be somewhere else in the brain than where the "humans" feleing chemicals are located.:2cent:

Edited: Like how scientist has a half anastesia patient and they'd poke the brian and ask what they felt. We cannot do that with the snakes or any other animal. So we just cannot tell. Another:2cent:

Brad,

I think this comes back to what you believe and we need to respectfully agree to disagree. :wuv: Scientifically we cannot prove the existance of God/Goddess/All-That-Is but many of us believe regardless.

Some forums believe very strongly that live feeding is completely against the animals best interest and sees anyone who does so as irresponsible. Doesn't make them right... just their opinion but they see it as fact.

I know a woman who will not allow her dogs (she's a breeder) to birth naturally. She insists on them having a c-section with every litter. It's her belief that this way she doesn't risk loosing a pup... is she right? Well in my opinion she isn't but in her opinion she's taking the animals best interests at heart. ;) (and her vet agrees with her... and so, in her mind, she has scientific backup)

Sapphire,

You need to re-read your posts or use spell check. Most people don't take posts very seriously when there are so many spelling errors. :P

I agree that is what it boils down to, and I just wanted to thank you one of the more intelligent dialouges on this matter. Most people on your side of the fence just clam up and take the defensive immediately, eliminating any chance for an intelligent discussion.

Agree to disagree? I can handle that!

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

Sapphire,

You need to re-read your posts or use spell check. Most people don't take posts very seriously when there are so many spelling errors. :P

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Yes I agree with you. But my computer has been very slow as of late. And I don’t know why. Sometimes as I type it misses a word or a letter I put down making my typing seem very pathetic. And Im sorry for that. Right now I have to type in my Word doc. The copy paste what I type into ball-python.net forums or while I type it will not register anything I type. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I don't mean to completely change the subject again... but what is the update on the eggs?

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Originally Posted by recycling goddess

christie,

i believe that every living thing has a soul, a spirit and i believe they all have emotions and feelings. i've felt a tree cry when it was hacked down. i believe that every living thing has the ability to feel, and has the ability for emotions... because i don't believe it's all about the size of the brain... but the size of their soul!

and i'm cool with agreeing to disagree... i don't expect everyone to believe what i do.

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I believe you're wiccan right? If I'm wrong forgive me, and please let me know what it is that you practice. Although I haven't found a religion or what not that fully encompasses what I believe, I can say that I can relate to your story of the tree being cut down. Although I am a firm believer that emotions are primarily a human trait. I do believe that every organism has its place in the energy network of the universe. Whether this be a soul, or just positive and negative energy I do not know. Trees have huge energy signatures and when cut down this sudden amputation from the physical world leads to an explosion of energy being release. Getting back to the point I think this can be explained by how our brains interpreted that energy when it was released, pairing it up with crying b/c that was the closest thing we could relate to the energy the tree was releasing. Not discrediting what you heard just throwing out another possible interpretation, might not have been that the tree was crying but that it was giving off huge amounts of negative energy that you interpretted as crying. Dunno if that even makes sense but its so hard to put concepts lilke this into words.

I don't believe my snakes have emotions, I do believe they have energy both positive and negative like everything in life that it up for interpretation by those who can tune in on it.

brad,

you are welcome and thanks for giving back intelligent conversation ;)

rich,

it doesn't really matter how you want to explain it - i can say that when i cut a tomatoe, it slices nicely whereas another way to see it is... the knife pushes against the skin and as it rubs it's sharp edge the skin gives away to the sharpness of the blade and the insides are released.

either way i end up with a tomatoe sandwich... toasted of course :D

and yup, i'm an eclectic wiccan/shaman - so... pagan will do :)

:P

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Originally Posted by Kilo

I don't mean to completely change the subject again... but what is the update on the eggs?

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ya... let's talk about this!

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Originally Posted by tigerlily

I did read that article, but I did not think it is adequate enough to relate it to captive breeding. First you are taking wild animals, and you can not know the history of these females. Secondly they incubated on aspen. I don't know of any articles that recommends that as a substrate, and the humidity levels were not measured. It's possible a lot of the the moisture loss would be a result of the incubating technique alone. Thirdly the study focused solely on the eggs, and the care of the mother was never measured. They say they were apparently healthy, but based on what criteria? Anyway, I wasn't very impressed with the article.

I agree that this subject is a touchy one. Maternal incubation is done, but it's not very common due to the success of artificial incubation. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but that too much emphasis is placed on the females rights to hatch her own eggs, the beauty of the process or other intangible measurements. I'm rooting for these eggs to hatch as well, and I hope they are some healthy babies. :banana:

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I'm not sure what kind of information you'd need on the brooding females, but If I were to guess I'd assume that captive bred and raised animals would be in better health than a lot of wild specimens you could find. They are fed every week year-round as babies, and fed every week except for during cooling as adults. CB's would most likely not have internal or external parisites hindering their health as many of those in the wild do. Even if brooding was stressful on the female, wouldn't a CB specimen be better prepared for it health wise than a WC female?

I thought the more important results of the experiment were the condition of the babies in each group. The maternally incubated babies pipped sooner, absorbed more from the egg before hatching, came out of the egg faster, were more alert, and larger when compared to the artificially incubated babies.

The care of the mother was not included in this lab report, but another one of the links I posted is a study soley about brooding females.

I am not trying to argue with you or anything, I just do think that the studies did have some important findings. And I thought that it was important that these were all clutches hatched in captivity, and these results were still found.

Thanks for the good wishes toward the eggs.