Ethics of Hybrids

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Originally Posted by Dread

Thanks for the link! That is an interesting paper, and certainly presents data for further discussion. Their particular slant on conservation and resource management to distinguish the three as separate species certainly biases the hybrid discussion concerning the three snakes (hadn't realized there were three of them!), but strengthens the call for a definition of species when discussing these snakes. Also, their presentation of the unweighted bootstrap values on the phylogenetic tree (getting over anyone's head yet?) might bias its topology. Anyone care to discuss?

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Cant help too much in this department I dont know very much about molecular systematics.

But its nice to have a fellow molecular biology nerd as part of the group.....welcome....but come on man.....you need to REPRESENT......get some biochem bling for an avatar.....:)

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Originally Posted by Dread

A very cool snake... but where's the story!?!

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I found the photo on this website: http://www.highendherps.com/wst_page10.html

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

I found the photo on this website: http://www.highendherps.com/wst_page10.html

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Well there ya go. It's NOT a burm/ball hybrid. It's a burm/Afrock. Still an extraordinary animal....but not nearly so unbelievable as a burm/ball.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Well there ya go. It's NOT a burm/ball hybrid. It's a burm/Afrock. Still an extraordinary animal....but not nearly so unbelievable as a burm/ball.

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The photo underneath the ''ballxburm'' is the afrock x burm. Neither Afrock nor Burm has the head in the "ballxburm" photo.

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

The photo underneath the ''ballxburm'' is the afrock x burm. Neither Afrock nor Burm has the head in the "ballxburm" photo.

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Did you read the story? Not once does it mention ball python. It is exclusively about producing the world's only albino burm/afrock. The picture you refer to is the DH parent of the albino. I realize the face looks a little "ballish" but if it is, I'll eat my keyboard.

So here is the list:
P.regiusxP.anchietae -> viable cross
P.regiusxP. curtus or breitensteini or brongersmai (all?) -> viable cross
P.reticulatusxP.molurus bivittatus -> viable cross
P.molurus bivittatusxP.sebae -> viable cross, albinism compatible!

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

Is this a burm x ball hybrid?

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...6/burmball.bmp

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Did you read the story? Not once does it mention ball python. It is exclusively about producing the world's only albino burm/afrock. The picture you refer to is the DH parent of the albino. I realize the face looks a little "ballish" but if it is, I'll eat my keyboard.

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I originally posted that picture because I was not sure. It really looks "ballish" and nothing more I guess. Thanks for the info. (It was to cool to be true)

I do not believe snakes should have hybrid babies or the snake world will end up like the dog types out there "Mutts"

That's an interesting thought, but there are couple of points you may not have considered:

1. Dogs are all of the same species, no matter what the "breed". Mutts occur when there isn't any selective breeding. Breeding different species of snakes together to create hybrids is the ultimate in selective breeding, the opposite of creating a mutt.

2. Have you seen snake hybrids? Nothing mutt-ish about them!

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Originally Posted by Sapphire7

I do not believe snakes should have hybrid babies or the snake world will end up like the dog types out there "Mutts"

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Dog breeds are not seperate species, they are created by selective breeding among members of the same species.......

Dont knock "Mutts" ethier....they are often healthier than "purebreeds" because they have a much lower incidence of hereditary diseases.

So here is the growing Python Hybrid list:
P.regius x P.anchietae -> viable cross
P.regius x P. curtus or breitensteini or brongersmai (all?) -> viable cross
P.reticulatus x P.molurus bivittatus -> viable cross
P.molurus bivittatus x P.sebae -> viable cross, albinism compatible!
P.regius x Aspidites ramsayi -> viable cross (NERD 2006)
Morelia spilota x Aspidites ramsayi -> viable cross (NERD 2006)
Morelia spilota cheynei x Liasis mackloti mackloti -> viable cross (NERD 2006)
Morelia spilota cheynei x Morelia viridis
So I guess the question of L. mackloti x P. regius is still up in the air!

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Originally Posted by Dread

So here is the growing Python Hybrid list:
P.regius x P.anchietae -> viable cross
P.regius x P. curtus or breitensteini or brongersmai (all?) -> viable cross
P.reticulatus x P.molurus bivittatus -> viable cross
P.molurus bivittatus x P.sebae -> viable cross, albinism compatible!
P.regius x Aspidites ramsayi -> viable cross (NERD 2006)
Morelia spilota x Aspidites ramsayi -> viable cross (NERD 2006)
Morelia spilota cheynei x Liasis mackloti mackloti -> viable cross (NERD 2006)
Morelia spilota cheynei x Morelia viridis
So I guess the question of L. mackloti x P. regius is still up in the air!

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You know what would be really sweet, if you posted that list using common names for the people on here that are below average with latin names.

So here is the growing Python Hybrid list in the common language:
Ball x Angolan
Ball x Short-tails (Borneo and Sumatra)
Reticulated x Burmese
Burmese x Rock
Ball x Woma
Carpet x Woma
Jungle Carpet x Macklot's
Coastal Carpet x Macklot's
Jungle Carpet x Green Tree (Chondros)
Irian Jaya Carpet x Green Tree (Chondros)

Isn't there also scrub X carpet?
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...rubxcarpet.bmp

I have never heard of the junglexchondro, that would be intense...

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Originally Posted by Dougie

I have never heard of the junglexchondro, that would be intense...

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here you go: https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...droxcarpet.bmp

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

here you go: https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...droxcarpet.bmp

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:omg: That is an insane looking animal! Amazing!! :omg:

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Originally Posted by JLC

:omg: That is an insane looking animal! Amazing!! :omg:

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Yes it is. What I think is interesting is that it retains the 'blue' part of a GTP, instead of the green.

OH MY!!! that looks like a toy...

Personally, I don't like it when people try to make hybrids and will never even think of owning one unless I am rescuing one.

BTW, I found the photo of the chondro x carpet on yahoo. The photo was linked to: www.reptileforums.co.uk/about251.html

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Personally, I don't like it when people try to make hybrids and will never even think of owning one unless I am rescuing one.

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It isn't my place to judge people for things such as this. I see no problem with it as long as there are no health issues. I just think it is everyone's personal decision they have to make, and it doesn't affect me so whatever decision people make is alright with me.

My opinion on this topic is, that if the ranges of 2 species of pythons naturally overlap and they are willing to breed together, then it is acceptable. On the other hand, a BP and a Blood should not hybridize, in my opinion, especially if the female of either species is artificially inseminated.

I didn't say that I don't like people who do it. I said I don't like when they do it.

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

My opinion on this topic is, that if the ranges of 2 species of pythons naturally overlap and they are willing to breed together, then it is acceptable. On the other hand, a BP and a Blood should not hybridize, in my opinion, especially if the female of either species is artificially inseminated.

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Exactly. I should've have mentioned intergrades, but I don't really count those as hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Dread

So here is the growing Python Hybrid list in the common language:
Ball x Angolan
Ball x Short-tails (Borneo and Sumatra)
Reticulated x Burmese
Burmese x Rock
Ball x Woma
Carpet x Woma
Jungle Carpet x Macklot's
Coastal Carpet x Macklot's
Jungle Carpet x Green Tree (Chondros)
Irian Jaya Carpet x Green Tree (Chondros)

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You missed 50% Diamond x Jungle
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y33...lexdiamond.jpg

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Originally Posted by Maki

You missed 50% Diamond x Jungle

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I'm not that interested in the sub-species hybridizations, but yes, the Carpet Pythons have all been hybridized together. The cross genera hybridizations are the really fascinating ones!

And bpkid and Boidfinatic, do you have anything other than opinions to contribute to the hybridization discussion? The thread is titled "Ethics of Hybrids" and while the discussion didn't delve deeply into the deontological or axiological ethics of the human actions of creating hybrids, please feel free to treat us with your reasoned musings on this topic.

For example, what makes geographical convenience of hybridization "better" than human-facilitated pairings of different snake species? What geographical ranges are we talking here? Current? Evolutionary? Pre-mankind?

And what makes artificial insemination morally "worse" than snakes mating themselves? Is the technique offensive to your sensibilities? Is the fact that it is behaviour and not physiology that prevents viable off-spring bothersome?

You see, crudely stated opinions on ethical matters can be very dangerous. Without thinking about what you say, and backing it up with examples you will 1) be torn apart by those who can present justifications for their positions, and 2) find that your opinions can be connected to very offensive ideologies.

Well I haven't read this thread and assumed it was asking for opinions. Which the poll asks for. I stated mine, and I sure hope nobody was offended.

Why mess up a perfectly good snake's bloodline to make something that's not supposed to happen?

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Why mess up a perfectly good snake's bloodline to make something that's not supposed to happen?

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You mean like making a Killer Bee? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dread

And bpkid and Boidfinatic, do you have anything other than opinions to contribute to the hybridization discussion? The thread is titled "Ethics of Hybrids" and while the discussion didn't delve deeply into the deontological or axiological ethics of the human actions of creating hybrids, please feel free to treat us with your reasoned musings on this topic.

For example, what makes geographical convenience of hybridization "better" than human-facilitated pairings of different snake species? What geographical ranges are we talking here? Current? Evolutionary? Pre-mankind?

And what makes artificial insemination morally "worse" than snakes mating themselves? Is the technique offensive to your sensibilities? Is the fact that it is behaviour and not physiology that prevents viable off-spring bothersome?

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Why intervene with the natural breeding habits of the specimens? If their current ranges don't overlap, then it obviously wouldn't occur naturally. Would these animals serve a purpose in their ecosystem the way they are? In the case of regius x brongersmai, how is the nature of one snake compatible withg the other? Are the ball's lungs meant to handle high humidity ranges? A majority of balls occur in the western deserts of Africa where humidity doesn't exceed semi-arid levels. Other than this example, there may be numerous complications with hybridizing two unlike species.

Ok, maybe I worded that wrong.

I meant why mess up a species bloodline by mixing another species with it.

People, THIS IS MY OPINION!! Even if my reasons aren't the best reasons, I'm sticking by them. You can negetive rep me, flame me, whatever, I am not changing my opinion.

To avoid any problems, I'm done with this thread ;)

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Originally Posted by _BoidFinatic_

Why intervene with the natural breeding habits of the specimens? If their current ranges don't overlap, then it obviously wouldn't occur naturally. Would these animals serve a purpose in their ecosystem the way they are? In the case of regius x brongersmai, how is the nature of one snake compatible with the other? Are the ball's lungs meant to handle high humidity ranges? A majority of balls occur in the western deserts of Africa where humidity doesn't exceed semi-arid levels. Other than this example, there may be numerous complications with hybridizing two unlike species.

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Where to start! First with the nit-picky things. Ghana, Togo and Benin are not deserts! Semi-arid may describe the dry season, but these are lush beautiful countries. While they are certainly not the humid jungles of Borneo, etc. don't over-exaggerate :)

Now with reference to "ball's lungs" we all must remember that genes are NOT blueprints. This means you can't, for example, insert "the genes for an elephant's trunk" into a giraffe and get a giraffe with a trunk. There -are- no genes for trunks. What you CAN do with genes is chemistry, since DNA codes for chemicals. As well, the genetic code does not, and cannot, specify the nature and position of every capillary in the body or every neuron in the brain. Hybrids are nothing more than the combination of two compatible genetic codes, and in these specific cases, they are human-facilitated combinations.

I've noticed that people who speak against creating hybrids talk of keeping lines pure, of leaving things the way nature (read God) intended. Would those who speak of geographical isolation have prevented the voyages of discovery so that Europeans could not breed with Native Americans? Be careful now, consider why you believe what you believe. Is it ok because the different "type localities" of all Humans aren't different species? Where do you draw your ethical line, because I for one would really love to understand your position! I have to ask: why do those of you anti-hybridists insist that the genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself useful information simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.

Since Shaun has shared his feelings and left the ethical discussion I guess it is pointless to mention there is a difference between opinions and ethics. To a broader audience though, the ethical question remains is it "good" or "right" to create/facilitate hybrids? To be a bit of a devil's advocate I'll ask in a broader sense is it ethically sound to keep snakes at all? While some might volunteer that captive breeding programs benefit the species, what of keeping snakes solely as pets with no view to breed?

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Originally Posted by bpkid

Ok, maybe I worded that wrong.

I meant why mess up a species bloodline by mixing another species with it.

People, THIS IS MY OPINION!! Even if my reasons aren't the best reasons, I'm sticking by them. You can negetive rep me, flame me, whatever, I am not changing my opinion.

To avoid any problems, I'm done with this thread ;)

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I am not trying to flame or negative rep you! Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the hybrid issue. I guess when the day comes that I have X thousands of dollars to drop on one (probably will never happen), I will have to address the issue. I just don't care honestly, to each his own!

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Originally Posted by Dougie

I just don't care honestly, to each his own!

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So Dougie are you a moral relativist or a moral pluralist?

Not to be a stickler, but either way you are setting yourself up to support the Holocaust, Apartheid, and slavery to name but a few. You can't be flippant in these discussions :)

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Originally Posted by Dougie

I am not trying to flame or negative rep you! Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the hybrid issue. I guess when the day comes that I have X thousands of dollars to drop on one (probably will never happen), I will have to address the issue. I just don't care honestly, to each his own!

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Originally Posted by Dread

So Dougie are you a moral relativist or a moral pluralist?

Not to be a stickler, but either way you are setting yourself up to support the Holocaust, Apartheid, and slavery to name but a few. You can't be flippant in these discussions :)

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Wow, you have him jumping from a neutral standpoint on hybrids to supporting genocide?!?!? WOW!! :O Impressive. ;) (sorry just couldn't keep my mouth shut... or fingers still?) :D

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Originally Posted by Dread

So Dougie are you a moral relativist or a moral pluralist?

Not to be a stickler, but either way you are setting yourself up to support the Holocaust, Apartheid, and slavery to name but a few. You can't be flippant in these discussions :)

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I can be flippant, common sense would say that my statement excludes war crimes and the such, especially since my statement is about a certain topic. If it was a broad range discussion on morality your statement would make sense, however since it was said in reference to a specific topic you are stretching pretty far.

Awww, you're missing the fun of having an ethical debate! No parrying and jousting back and forth here.

There is a difference between supporting, and setting yourself up to support. And to be fair, you cannot make an ethical decision without a moral system. If you make any decisions from a moral relativist perspective, you will eventually have to concede (as you did here) that there are limits. So in conclusion, making an ethical decision from as a relativist is imperfect and therefore incorrect.

So if apathy didn't taint your moral life, there should be a quest to find fulfillment in a complete ethical system to lead your life by, not just guide opinions on snake hybrids. Home grown "common sense" seems to pretty prevalent these days, unfortunately there is nothing common about it!

Oh, I have a complete ethical system to live by, I never tried to say that it was impossibly for it all to be limitless, I totally agree. However, in regards to the ethics of hybridizing species, at the moment it has no direct affect on me so I just don't care. If common sense were common, how much fun would it be to have such discussions!

my view is this; i am completely fine with hybrid animals and i think they are sometimes gorgeous and very fascinating. but, i do draw the line somewhere.

what i dont understand is why someone would hybridize say red and yellow ackies. red and yellow ackie hybrids basically look like reddish yellows or yelowish reds and they dont even look fascinating like blood x balls or angolan balls.

now, the thing with ackies is people are doing this commony now and its hard to find pure reds anymore. if you go thekingsnake classifieds (or any reptile classifieds) you'll see animals advertised as red ackies but they are just yellows or hybrids. now whether people know what they are or not doesnt matter too me. i just dont wont there to be no more pure red ackies in the US since they can no longer be imported from Australia.

same with other species that look a lot alike. i just dont get it.

I personally do not care whether someone chooses to create a hybrid, in the strict definition of species that I subscribe to, a hybrid is incapable of reproducing. Mules are quite useful sometimes.



Pinner

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Originally Posted by Pintado

I personally do not care whether someone chooses to create a hybrid, in the strict definition of species that I subscribe to, a hybrid is incapable of reproducing. Mules are quite useful sometimes.
Pinner

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I believe that a certain percentage of mules are capable of reproducing but that percentage is so low that it isn't worth people trying to breed, it is easier to make more the old fashion way.

I do not agree with hybridization (i am speaking about animals since humans have already screwed themselves up so much) in the wild hybridization does occur with animals found in the same geographic region, though uncommon it has been known to occur. Now hybridizing species that don't have natural contact with each other may have genetic problems that humans as breeder's cannot detect. there may be internal constrictions of passageways (blood vessels etc), never mind increase susseptability to disease and pathogens. There is no way to detect if or when a problem will occur. If these hybrids ever did reach wild populations it could cause massive problems. if a ball x blood cross ever reached the wild in say florida it wouldn't affect native populations of snakes unless they were carrying some disease. now if enough of them were to reach the wild then they could cause problems with the native ecology just like if any species were to reach the wild.

It is also understandable that it is a concern that the captive populations will become impure. when people go to buy a dog most (not all) want a pure bred with papers, now if there was a wolf hybrid many people would not like that as a pet. just look at the number of mute compared to the number of pure breds in pounds.

just my opinion, not trying to change anyone's opinion.

~mike

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Originally Posted by wildlifewarrior

I do not agree with hybridization (i am speaking about animals since humans have already screwed themselves up so much)

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I'm just wondering what you mean by human hybridization (ie: humans screwing themselves up so much already)? I'm fairly sure humans can't reproduce with other species. Unless you're referring to race-mixing--which isn't "screwed up" at all. I guess I'm just confused--clarify for me?

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Originally Posted by AzureN1ght

I'm just wondering what you mean by human hybridization (ie: humans screwing themselves up so much already)? I'm fairly sure humans can't reproduce with other species. Unless you're referring to race-mixing--which isn't "screwed up" at all. I guess I'm just confused--clarify for me?

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You mean you have not seen the offspring of human x goat? It was all over Star magazine!

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Originally Posted by tmlowe5704

You mean you have not seen the offspring of human x goat? It was all over Star magazine!

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Or Bat-Boy! :P

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Originally Posted by Dread

So Dougie are you a moral relativist or a moral pluralist?

Not to be a stickler, but either way you are setting yourself up to support the Holocaust, Apartheid, and slavery to name but a few. You can't be flippant in these discussions :)

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I was reffering to this post with the "humans screwing themseleves up" not genetically but through views of pure race, and import/export of human. humans are just subspecies of each other, but i was just trying to keep the topic on animal hybridization, i guess what would have been a better term was "screwed up their own attempts at keeping the race pure since there is no pure perfect human race"

I hope that clears up what i ment :) if not let me know i will try to clear it up again, i know what i mean in my head but it is hard to get it out on a forum, ya know?

~mike

I don't think there's any ethical or moral issues at all, as long as records are diligently kept and used honestly.


I am not in favor of hybridization in general, coming from the Cichlid hobby it's a big issue!
However, I am aware of my own willingness to own hybrid cats (I have Bengals) and line-bred snakes & fish, so in practice I am in favor of it though I like to deny it in my dark little mind :P

I would love to be a purist, but I'm part of the problem with my consumer habits.

Personally I'm all in favor of hybridism. I love hybrid reptiles. The only time I am against it is when strict records are not kept, or someone tries to pass it off as the next big thing. I'll give an example :P....

An African Rock x Burmese Python sells for $650-$1000 respectably. Now a 'breeder' (not giving names, but you know who ;)) Decides to sell his animals as a huge investment, charging outrageous amounts for their animals which aren't that high a quality in the first place. They edit the photos to make them look like doritos, as well as try and pass them off as 50/50's, when they're really 25/75's. This is giving both the hybridists and breeders a bad name by attempting to rip people off. Now...I'm not against hybrids. I just hate it when people pass them off as investments making them viewed as you would a color morph, or misrepresent their animals by not telling what exactly it is mixed with or what percentage it is. You 'can' make designer snakes with wicked patterns and colors, but in the end all you get is a mixed species....

I am okay with producing hybrids as long as ppaperwork is kept on them... down the line I'd like to know if I am really buying a 100% BCC or not, for example.

Also, I would hate for hybrids to outnumber pure species animals. I think it would be horrible if the only species we are able to observe are mixed species animals.

I don't like hybrids at all. It is[in my opinion] like playing God. In nature, for instance, I highly doubt that a ball and a blood would reproduce. :colbert:

For those who are interested in discussing their opinions (as well as posting them for all to see), does anyone feel like supporting/defending them with articulate reasoning?

How about the "playing God" side address the following issues and get back to us:
-Free Will / Human Agency
-Apparent lack of species barrier for most snakes
-Natural hybridization and current views on Evolution

I think this is a good balance, the Faithful are familiar with Free Will (it is their gift), the 'scientists' eat and breathe Evolution, and all the hobbyists (anyone on the forum) can meet on the fact that the species barrier is a pittance in snakes when compared to other quotidien animals.

Just for the record, I have not a care in the world what stance anyone takes on this issue. But if you blindly side one way or the other based on pedestrian theology or bastardized science you might want to re-evaluate the way you approach the topic.