Pied-$$??

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

.... I still can't believe anyone actually reads my BS!! :P :pinkele:

-adam

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Not only do we read it...we actually think it smells good....most of the time! :lick:

It's always a good read. I'm sure we all appreciate the time you take from your busy schedule to shed light. Thanks dude.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Not only do we read it...we actually think it smells good....most of the time! :lick:

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Well lets not push it! :P

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Originally Posted by ARamos8

It's always a good read. I'm sure we all appreciate the time you take from your busy schedule to shed light. Thanks dude.

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Absolutely!
:colbert2:

I always enjoy my chats with Adam, it's great to get information from someone who is further down the road than oneself in the topic of discussion.

Oh come on now, the last thing we need is Adam thinking that his ____ doesn't stink!

Just a thought on reading all of this: I know of plenty of other hobbies that are just an endless money pit. My brother is into modding cars; huge waste of money, but hey, its fast and fun. He'll never see a DIME back from the 5-10K he invested in it. Saltwater tanks; REALLY expensive. But the rewards are the satisfaction (non-economic). I feel fortunate that I'm really into something that could pay for itself and more if I go about it right. Its nice that ball pythons are sweet AND have a hot market behind them.

and oh yeah: I can see myself being the type of breeder that sells just enough to re-coup what I put into it and to cover expenses, and keep EVERYTHING else, lol....I envision one day producing super pastels and bumblebees clearly, I can NOT as clearly envision packing them up and shipping them away voluntarily though!

Okay, one last question...

Who is this Jimmy, and where can I buy his $1,000 albinos? :P

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Oh come on now, the last thing we need is Adam thinking that his ____ doesn't stink!

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No worries there, I know that I'm a stinky <your choice of expletive goes here>!! :tongue2:

-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Okay, one last question...

Who is this Jimmy, and where can I buy his $1,000 albinos? :P

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He'll be the guy in Daytona naked and passed out in a shopping cart in the lobby of the Hilton the Saturday morning before the show. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Okay, one last question...

Who is this Jimmy, and where can I buy his $1,000 albinos? :P

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I really hope there isn't some 19yr old out there named Jimmy with a group of Albinos!! :eek:

Packaging up a Super Pastel or Bumble Bee is a bridge I don't really want to cross. But when the check clears, I'll just have to re-invest and do it all over again:P. LOL

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

He'll be the guy in Daytona naked and passed out in a shopping cart in the lobby of the Hilton the Saturday morning before the show. ;)

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LOL. Who else here thinks "The Adventures of Jimmy" would make a cool comic strip? Or maybe an action movie starring Harrison Ford as the breeder trying to save the Ball Python industry and Ashton Kutcher as the evil Jimmy. Couldn't be any worse than Snakes on a Plane. :P

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Originally Posted by xdeus

LOL. Who else here thinks "The Adventures of Jimmy" would make a cool comic strip? Or maybe an action movie starring Harrison Ford as the breeder trying to save the Ball Python industry and Ashton Kutcher as the evil Jimmy. Couldn't be any worse than Snakes on a Plane. :P

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LOL...if Hollywood tried to do something like that, all the ball pythons would be 20 feet long...have fangs...and rattles on their tails! :O :P

Run away!!!! That just reminds me, I happened to turn the channel and came across Alexander. Angelina Jolie was holding a Ball Python and she said to the kid, grab it quickly or it will strike. Umm yeah...How about ball up and hide?

I'm just glad my name is not Jimmy :fishslap:

Great read and very helpful to beginners like me! Thank you to all the contributed!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Run away!!!! That just reminds me, I happened to turn the channel and came across Alexander. Angelina Jolie was holding a Ball Python and she said to the kid, grab it quickly or it will strike. Umm yeah...How about ball up and hide?

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Lol...

"Gaaah! I'm run into a nest of merciless ball pythons...few men have been known to escape their cuteness! Run for the hills!"

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

As Jimmy grows his collection and the care of the animals takes more and more time, feeder bills grow, the money starts becoming too much to hide from the IRS, one of two things will happen ... either the quality of Jimmys product will go down, or Jimmy will realize that in order to make the same money he was making when he started he'll have to charge more.

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He may have to charge more, or he may just have to become more efficient. Often there are a few different levels of cost.... certain costs are low when you are small, and then they go up as you begin to hire employees, business licesnses, warehouse, but then there has to be a point where you get big enough that the average cost per snake is as low or lower than when Jimmy first started in his parents basement.

If you add up all the costs of raising and feeding and housing and taking care of 1.5 albino BP's, and then divide that cost into the 30 babies that hatch out the first year, how much can that actually be? (Im asking, I have no clue)


30 babies that he wanted to sell for $1000 each....

Food for 6 snakes for 1 year (assuming he bought the females of size to be ready in a year) $400 ? Housing for 6 snakes? $1000, Heat, care? Lets say he paid someone to clean and feed them once a week, 2 hours, $20 so $1000 in a year,

so thats $2400, divided by 30 babies... around $80 each

and lets add on another 4,000 in costs just because i have no clue :)

so $210 each the first year, and less the second year as housing has already been purchased...

Even if that cost doubled, he would only have to raise the cost to $1200 per baby to be making the same amount.


It is somewhat tricky for someone like me to think about, mostly because I see most morphs being similar in cost to raise as the rest, and yet extremely varying values placed on them based on the market/supply, etc...

If the above situation was applied to pastels.... ouch $210 in costs, for a pastel that someone wants to sell for $400? That cuts the profit margin to the bone.... but if they were to sell it at $1200, that gives more breathing room.....


I think in the end the demand for albinos will mean that Jimmy's 30 snakes at $1000 get snapped up faster than you can blink.... or even better, in this case I would almost guarantee that a bigger breeder, or wholesaler would snap these up, and sell them at market price as Adam said... and after those 30 are gone, there are still probably another few hundred people who will then turn to the market priced snakes and buy those.

Wow, that's a lot of typing in one day.


I think focusing on trying to keep the prices as high as possible for as long as possible isn't the right focus.

Let's go back to the home entertainment scenario. Sony sold Plasmas for $15K. Now plasmas are cheap. But Sony still sells products for $15K - newer, better products.

You see, as has been pointed out, it's inevitable that the market will reach a point where supply is greater than demand. Albinos at PetCo for under $100 is coming.

So, what does Sony do that snake breeders also need to keep doing to continue making top dollar? Development of new product.

I'm more keen on front projection home theater, so I'll use that as an example.

Way back when, somebody decided an 800X600 LCD projector would be a great way to watch movies and TV. But at the time, LCD projectors weren't that great for home theater. LCDs were prone to non-uniform color, horrendous contrast, and a screen door effect that would leave you seeing little boxes for hours.

And so somebody focused on making a LCD projector geared towards the home theater market. And so then we had LCD projectors with S-Video inputs, and brightness that was more geared towards a home theater environment.

Then Texas Instruments came along and invented the Digital Light Processor chip (DLP). DLP projectors came along at top dollar, and won buyers with it's superior contrast and less screen door than LCD projectors.

So in response, better LCD panels are made, projectors start coming with component inputs, and higher resolutions such as 1024x768 are made. The older LCD prices drop because there's a lot and they're old news.

DLP continues to improve their product also with faster color wheel speeds and better contrast. DVDs make wide screen popular, and 16:9 854x480 8units are produced. Finally, high definition 1280x720 units are released for top dollar.

Sony comes out with the first 1920x1080 full high definition projector, and prices it at $30,000

LCD also improves, having better color than DLP. Panasonic releases a 1280x720 high definition front projector for $2000 less than the cheapest DLP, as LCD is a cheaper technology to produce.

In the meantime, 3-chip DLP projectors that have superior brightness, contrast, and color reproduction compared to everything else are out for $20,000+

Recently, a $3000 single chip DLP projector was released to compete with the low priced LCD 1280x720 projectors. Also, 1920x1080 front projection has broken the $10,000 barrier.

The future of front projection is in the form of higher contrast and brighter pictures. New technologies for light engines to replace the $400 bulbs. And resolutions even higher than 1920x1080 (already available) for large venue theaters. And eventually those will be available for home theater, and the 1920x1080 projectors will be selling for $2000. But there will be better brighter higher contrast projectors still priced above $10K for those willing to pay the premium.


So that's great! What's the point?

The point is that instead of fighting the losing battle of keeping prices high as long as possible, focus on making tomorrow's Ball Python! Currently the holy grail seems to be the pure white snake wich I've seen for sale for over $100K. How about other colors? Eventually there will be enough breeding that anybody who wants a pure white ball python can have one for under $1K. But by that time, the breeders who have stayed focused on the future will have other colors. Ball Pythons disguised as Corn Snakes. Pure Purple? Blood Red? Cool Blue? That's where the money lies.

The only companies I know of that keeps prices high selling the same old product is the oil companies. Everybody else has to "build the better mouse trap" to continue to make sales. Intel would be out of business today if they attempted to market the 486SX at a high price point while everybody else passed them by. Nope, Intel put money into research and development to make better faster processors.

So, wile it's important to sell your product at the highest price you can, the focus is to make money in the future. Keeping prices high as long as possible is short term. Having a morph that nobody else has is long term.What morphs will you have when albinos go a dime a dozen?




To answer the original question, yes, prices will creep down as the supply/demand ratio approaches equillibrium. But it probably won't happen overnight or over year, but over the course of several years.

And a honest question - out of all the people who buy morphs, what percentage is breeders? I'm sure there are some people out there who buy a morph just because they have a lot of money, and they think it looks cool, but to read these forums it would seem the only people buying morphs are breeders who are in this for the money, not because they think a yellow snake with purple polk-a-dots is worrth $50,000 just to keep as a pet.

Petco lists $8 male imported CH for $80, for them to be selling albinos for $100 it would mean that they were getting them for $20 or under.


What kind of time frame were you thinking of?

on the flip side, you want your investment to be worth something for several years. if they drop or crash too fast, it will take you longer to turn a profit. if it takes you 3-4 yrs to have babies for sale, i don't want to dump my babies at petco for 50 bucks a piece. if we work to keep investments yielding higher longer this helps everyone. if balls drop too fast, that would make investing in them more risky? who would want to spend 1k to sell babies for 50 bucks? to come up with a new marketable morph takes $$$ and time to prove out.



vaughn

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Originally Posted by TraconSnake

I think focusing on trying to keep the prices as high as possible for as long as possible isn't the right focus.

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Originally Posted by TraconSnake

So, wile it's important to sell your product at the highest price you can, the focus is to make money in the future.

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I really think you're missing my point.

I'm not advocating keeping prices as high as possible for as long as possible.

I'm advocating not dropping prices until all of the buyers at a given price point have been exhausted. If there are people out there willing to pay $1,500 for an animal, why would anyone want to sell to them for $1,000?? If you don’t need the money, wholesale the animals out … if you like money … what the heck are you thinking? Is $500 not enough?

Of course supply is going to dictate prices, but when new breeders sell their animals at lower prices in order to compete instead of putting in the work to market themselves and get full dollar for their product, they artificially quicken that natural pace of the drop.

That isn't good for anyone.

TV and car analogies are great, but TV's aren't being sold to people that are looking to make money … ball pythons are.

Maybe I'm just weird, but every time I sell a ball python to someone that plans on breeding it in order to make money, I feel a personal responsibility to make sure they get the maximum return on their investment. Since I can't go to all of their homes and breed the animals for them, I advocate extending the life time of the market for as long as possible. This lets them raise their animals, breed them, and sell at a price that is of course lower than what they paid, but hopefully not pushed down to far by anything beyond just supply and demand (like unnatural downward price pressure from inexperienced sellers). I want my customers to make as much money as possible.

For me, I'm all set ... I'm not even going to produce pastels next year for the sake of making pastels, in another year or two I'll be done with straight homozygous albinos, after that I'll move on from spiders and cinnamons ... for two reasons ... to make room for my customers to market and sell their products without competing against them ... and to focus on higher end sales of combinations and rarer animals like you suggested.

When I make my case for supporting prices and extending the life of the market, please understand that it's for my customers sake. I would think that any breeder with customers and a conscious would make the same argument.

It’s the little guy that makes the big breeders what they are. If you support the little guys ability to make money, they do well and you do too!

-adam

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Petco lists $8 male imported CH for $80, for them to be selling albinos for $100 it would mean that they were getting them for $20 or under.


What kind of time frame were you thinking of?

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I don't ever see that happening. Balls cost too much to raise and lay too few eggs for anyone in the U.S. to make a profit with those numbers. I am curious as to what the cheapest a CB Ball could be sold for and still remain profitable. Anyone? :confused:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Even if that cost doubled, he would only have to raise the cost to $1200 per baby to be making the same amount.

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Where are your taxes and insurance?

That $1000 isn't $1000 after the IRS gets their piece.

Not to mention a TON of other things that you're missing.

It all looks cheap when you play games on paper, but when you roll up your sleeves and get to work it takes money to make money.

-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I don't ever see that happening. Balls cost too much to raise and lay too few eggs for anyone in the U.S. to make a profit with those numbers. I am curious as to what the cheapest a CB Ball could be sold for and still remain profitable. Anyone? :confused:

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My target is $400. After that my margins are too low for me to bother. There are easier ways to make money. ;)

-adam

my target is around 1k! lol rack space real estate is steep in a 10x10 room! that reminds me, i'm going to need more morphs. can you recommend a good breeder? lol

couldn't resist that one.



vaughn

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Originally Posted by kavmon

can you recommend a good breeder?

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I heard of this Jimmy guy that will hook ya. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Where are your taxes and insurance?

That $1000 isn't $1000 after the IRS gets their piece.

Not to mention a TON of other things that you're missing.

It all looks cheap when you play games on paper, but when you roll up your sleeves and get to work it takes money to make money.

-adam

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Feel free to list what I am missing, I am the first one to admit that I am missing a LOT! (Btw, I added 4000 randomly, to cover what I didnt know :) because im sure there is a lot)

I couldn't even begin to guess what taxes are taken out on a $1000 snake sale.

i might have heard of him "Jimmy Snake Revolutions" he does good deals on breeding loans too:bolt: :partyon: :whisper: :rofl:


vaughn

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

My target is $400. After that my margins are too low for me to bother. There are easier ways to make money. ;)

-adam

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*furiously scribbles notes*

That easier way of making money woudln't happen to involve a ski mask and a fast car?

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

I couldn't even begin to guess what taxes are taken out on a $1000 snake sale.

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1/2

-adam

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I don't ever see that happening. Balls cost too much to raise and lay too few eggs for anyone in the U.S. to make a profit with those numbers. I am curious as to what the cheapest a CB Ball could be sold for and still remain profitable. Anyone? :confused:

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Lots of people offload their normal males at $20 or so to pet stores (or so I hear).... but to purposefully breed with the intent of selling normal males?? I don't think anyone is that crazy :eek:

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

That easier way of making money woudln't happen to involve a ski mask and a fast car?

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LOL ... nope, real estate, securities, commodities ... there's lots of money out there ... I just happen to be a nut about ball pythons.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

1/2

-adam

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Does the US gov't supply a free tube of lube with that???

50%?? ouch

I need to learn more :(

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

LOL ... nope, real estate, securities, commodities ... there's lots of money out there ... I just happen to be a nut about ball pythons.

-adam

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That, and until you drop to $400 a snake, BP's are still way more lucrative :)


edit: I need to change my sig to say (at least thats my guess!) that way im covered in case im way off base :)

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Does the US gov't supply a free tube of lube with that???

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Still want to sell less than the big guys?

Get every nickle you can, or deal in cash. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Still want to sell less than the big guys?

Get every nickle you can, or deal in cash. ;)

-adam

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No, definitely not... I guess that simple number was a wake up call for me , lol..

D$%N YOU JIMMY


D#%N YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just when you think this thread is on it's last breath:sabduel:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I really think you're missing my point.

I'm advocating not dropping prices until all of the buyers at a given price point have been exhausted.

-adam

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This is where I'm stuck, who decides this time in space? I assume the buyers will dictate this? I also assume as long as people are buying the yearly
production of Albinos at $2000, next year will start at $2000 and so on until the supply outweighs the demand and no one is buying them at $2000. What if the demand exceeds the supply, who decides that Albinos are now going to be $2250 this year?

And what about these quick shot breeders posting $1500-$1750 Albinos, there numbers will increase sooner or latter.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Where are your taxes and insurance?

That $1000 isn't $1000 after the IRS gets their piece.

Not to mention a TON of other things that you're missing.

It all looks cheap when you play games on paper, but when you roll up your sleeves and get to work it takes money to make money.

-adam

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Your assuming everyone breeding and selling snakes pays taxes or claims 100% of their income? You and I both know most will stay under the radar for years and years before ever forming an LLC, if ever.

How many Jimmy's do you think will claim all their income? I agree after a certain point you better give uncle Sam his cut of the pie!! The IRS is something NO ONE wants to screw with at any cost!

Jimmy could easily keep a couple dozen adult BP's in his spare bedrooms or his basement or attic. Jimmy could be breeding his own rats at a fraction of the cost buying feeders or a mix of frozen/live.

Instead of raising cost to make the same profit, Jimmy holds back 2-5-10 females and increases production. All of a sudden, before you know it....Jimmy is cranking out 50-100+ Albinos at $1000 a pop.

If the workload gets to hectic and Jimmy feels the quality of care or customer service is too much for him and certain points. He pays his 17yr old buddy $200/week during peak months to come clean the cages, prep the boxes, feed the snakes, etc. Which his buddy is thrilled to do, just to be around the cool snakes. :D

Jimmy seems to have a following..:)

Ummm, lets not forget the 19 yr old hottie... :)

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Originally Posted by SnakeySnakeSnake

Does the US gov't supply a free tube of lube with that???

50%?? ouch

I need to learn more :(

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50% is right, the IRS cuts you in 1/2 on every dollar!!

This is why the Jimmy's of the world can afford to sell for less, they don't plan on giving away 50% of their income!!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Ummm, lets not forget the 19 yr old hottie... :)

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Can't forget her!
Cheap labor and a sexy voice to answer the phone and handle some of the emails and follow up on sales and shipments. Not too mention bring her friends to attract all the boys at the shows to point out the $1000 Albinos at the table!
:bubbles:

Wow, Jimmy really has this all figured out or has the seed been planted for this basement dwelling, hot chick having, sweat shop labor Jimmy dude?:P

After reviewing this thread in more detail I decided to review the plan again for sanity's sake. Whew, I'm still on track (elementary stage) with the plan. Just when you thought this thread was dying down huh LOL...???

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Originally Posted by ARamos8

Wow, Jimmy really has this all figured out or has the seed been planted for this basement dwelling, hot chick having, sweat shop labor Jimmy dude?:P

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I sure hope not!
I hope I didn't give anyone any ideas!

Now some 19yr old starts a business plan to breed Albinos and Pieds by the 100's for 1/2 of the market price, not too mention he thanks me for the idea 3yrs down the road at Daytona!!
:rainon:

Who said Jimmy was 19? The GIRL is 19! Jimmy is prob 32. Or maybe I'm 32..Oh jeez, I've gone cross-eyed.

Well she may be a hottie but she sure as heck must be a dumb bunny. A hot 19 year old that is dating some wierdo 32 year old snake guy living in his mom's basement! :P

Hmm..When I was 19 I dated a hot 28 yr old and I lived in my mom's basement. Is that close?

Nice...:cool:

Wow guy's haven't been around for a long time but This has evolved into one of the best thread's i've read.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

This is where I'm stuck, who decides this time in space?

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I look to the people that have thier finger on the pulse of the market ... the big breeders. These guys are on the phone ALL DAY LONG talking to customers, they get thousands of emails from people inquiring about prices ... they know what the market will bear ... it's their livelyhood. Many of them have been breeding as their sole income for longer than a lot of people knew what ball pythons morphs were.

When a big breeder sets a price, it's because he/she knows that's what the market will bear and that is what they need to sell the animal at to meet their margins.

If you're a smaller breeder with less over head, hiding from the IRS, producing far less volume than the "big guys" and they are clearly showing you that there are buyers at a given price point ... why would you give up that 10% - 40%?? You're margins will be even better than theirs! ... Dollar for dollar you'll make more money than the top names in the business doing a lot less work!

I just don't understand the "I'll sell for less" mentality ... do these people not like money? Then why just sell for 25% less ... why not sell for the price of your expenses? I just don't get it.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

And what about these quick shot breeders posting $1500-$1750 Albinos, there numbers will increase sooner or latter.

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You would think right? ... But I've been doing this for a while and it really isn't working out like that ... each year for the last 4 years I've heard people talk about the great pastel market crash ... well ya know what? I raised my pastel prices this year ... and my sales are right on track with my business plan ... I was shocked. At one point last spring I was even sucked in to the doom and gloom of the threat of markets crashing ... boy was I wrong! The quick shot guys are out there, but their effect isn't being felt just yet.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Your assuming everyone breeding and selling snakes pays taxes or claims 100% of their income? You and I both know most will stay under the radar for years and years before ever forming an LLC, if ever.

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LMAO ... I'm not that stupid.

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Originally Posted by ssscales

Instead of raising cost to make the same profit, Jimmy holds back 2-5-10 females and increases production. All of a sudden, before you know it....Jimmy is cranking out 50-100+ Albinos at $1000 a pop.

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No way Jimmy is moving that much cash around without getting noticed by the IRS. Just not going to happen. You also have to take into account the time it takes to raise up a female to breed ... if Jimmy isn't smart enough to maximize his profit margins, how well is he going to do with the rest of his business over those 3 years?

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

When a big breeder sets a price, it's because he/she knows that's what the market will bear and that is what they need to sell the animal at to meet their margins.

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Okay, but what exactly IS market price? It seems like many big breeder websites have outdated price lists. Most of the KS ads that have supposed market prices can be talked down considerably, some more than others. Do the big breeders get together and set a bottom price for their snakes amongst themselves? And how is a little breeder supposed to know what the big breeders have set a price at if it's not the MSRP?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Do the big breeders get together and set a bottom price for their snakes amongst themselves?

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LOL .... nooooo, I can't think of even 2 big breeders that could stand being in a room with each other for more than 2 minutes, let alone working together to set a price.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

And how is a little breeder supposed to know what the big breeders have set a price at if it's not the MSRP?

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For me, I pick up the phone ... I bug the POOP out of the big breeders all spring long ... "What's the price going to be on this, what's the price going to be on that" ... they always take the time to give me their thoughts on the market for each morph and the response that they are getting from customers.

Sometimes they all come in at around the same price ... sometimes there are larger gaps from one big breeder to the next ... I do my best to be "in the ballpark". ;)

LOVE THE AVATAR ... YOU COULD SELL THEM AT DAYTONA!

-adam