Will my python ever recover?

Some more of her enclosure..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...455858769e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...534136053f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...aa28266383.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c27fd44e8a.jpg

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As previously suggested, she needs things with traction and to climb on to improve her body condition- as it is, she's got nothing. You did say you're making something but she's been without for 11 years, I assume, so what do you expect?

As hides go, those are awfully tall & not a bit "cozy" or safe-feeling as most snakes seem to enjoy- though I can't speak for this species on that.

She needs some real environmental "enrichment"- some things to work her muscles on. When I had a large boa, I used indoor-outdoor carpet as substrate- it's easily washed, & offers great traction. And on top of her hide, I used a carpet mat with rubberized non-slip backing so she could comfortably climb on & off for basking- again, snakes need traction to work their muscles against- smooth surfaces don't do a thing.

Have you ever seen someone put a snake on a glass top table? The snake can hardly move as it's so slick. Snakes push off surfaces somewhat like ice skaters do with their blade edges, only they're using their muscles & belly scutes. (& yes, I used to ice skate) As it is, her home looks more like an office cubicle...not anything a snake would be comfortable in. I half-expect to see a typewriter & a telephone in there. ;) There's a lot of air space- but snakes don't fly- they need things to hold onto, things to climb on & explore.

Snakes can feel very stressed from such an open (& very illuminated) environment, or from repeated vet visits, without ever showing visible or measurable signs- but they just may not do well. Stress impacts their immune system. Snakes are stoic creatures- it's up to us to understand & provide for their needs if you expect them to have good health & longevity, as opposed to just existing.

So 10+ vet visits hasn’t given you the specific answer you seem to have in mind… Have you spoken at any length with experienced boeleni keepers? I think you’ll be surprised at what they may tell you. Ari Flagle, Mark Miles, and Keith McPeek would be an excellent starting point.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

As previously suggested, she needs things with traction and to climb on to improve her body condition- as it is, she's got nothing.

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This, and it's a common problem for snakes kept only on paper or other smooth, level surfaces. Your python, like retics and carpet pythons, is actually semi-arboreal in the wild. They're active, they perch, they climb, and they're good at it.

Decor doesn't have to be expensive. I have a small PVC jungle gym in my carpet python enclosure. I can disassemble it for cleaning/disinfecting and he likes to perch on it. Yes PVC is smooth but he has to grab it firmly to perch and balance on it, which helps keep his muscles exercised.

I don't think increasing the enclosure temperatures is a good idea. Higher temperatures = faster metabolism in snakes, which means yours would be using more calories even while resting and that's not what you want.

Chicks are good for a varied diet but remember their bones are very thin, just like other birds, so the snake will digest them fast. A feeder like a rabbit has thicker bones than a chick, and those bones take longer to break down which means the snake gets nourishment over a longer period of time.

A 300 gram feeder for a 7.3 kg snake is only 4% of the snake's body weight, and for a 9 kg snake it's only 3% of the snake's body weight. You said you saw a lump with the chick but again, chicks are not a "compact" feeder like an older rat or young rabbit would be.

I am familiar with RAL. What viral tests are you looking into? What laboratory processed any previous viral tests?

I do have to say I have very mixed feelings about viral testing with commercial labs these days as results are not super reliable. There are a couple of university-based labs I would trust.

Perhaps more importantly - keepers panic if their python tests positive for Nidovirus, for example, and assume that it's a death sentence. But the reality is that it's starting to look like many snakes may carry the virus for years, and perhaps throughout their lives, without ever becoming ill at all. An asymptomatic positive snake may live a perfectly normal life.

Your snake has not been showing any of the symptoms of illness associated with either Nidovirus or IBD (arenavirus) and has not been exposed to other snakes that could have transmitted. So I'm not sure that a viral test will really tell you anything, regardless of what the results turned out to be. If she has somehow been positive since she was a baby then she's also been asymptomatic, so the focus wouldn't be on the fact that she's positive - it would be on providing her with the best possible quality of life to ensure that the virus never becomes an issue.

Her body condition looks very good, including the overall iridescence of her scales. I don't keep the large pythons but a 350g meal for a snake her size isn't enough. I just suspect that this is a combination of the snake needing a bump up in food plus providing more exercise and enrichment. Depression and lethargy in captive snakes is a real thing.

She's in a very bare enclosure that lacks environmental complexity and enrichment. It's great that you let her out, but she is a large, intelligent, semi-arboreal snake. These snakes are smart and athletic and she needs more - if her enclosure has been like that throughout her life, then it may take some time for her to fully respond to and engage with a more enriched environment.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

As previously suggested, she needs things with traction and to climb on to improve her body condition- as it is, she's got nothing. You did say you're making something but she's been without for 11 years, I assume, so what do you expect?

As hides go, those are awfully tall & not a bit "cozy" or safe-feeling as most snakes seem to enjoy- though I can't speak for this species on that.

She needs some real environmental "enrichment"- some things to work her muscles on. When I had a large boa, I used indoor-outdoor carpet as substrate- it's easily washed, & offers great traction. And on top of her hide, I used a carpet mat with rubberized non-slip backing so she could comfortably climb on & off for basking- again, snakes need traction to work their muscles against- smooth surfaces don't do a thing.

Have you ever seen someone put a snake on a glass top table? The snake can hardly move as it's so slick. Snakes push off surfaces somewhat like ice skaters do with their blade edges, only they're using their muscles & belly scutes. (& yes, I used to ice skate) As it is, her home looks more like an office cubicle...not anything a snake would be comfortable in. I half-expect to see a typewriter & a telephone in there. ;) There's a lot of air space- but snakes don't fly- they need things to hold onto, things to climb on & explore.

Snakes can feel very stressed from such an open (& very illuminated) environment, or from repeated vet visits, without ever showing visible or measurable signs- but they just may not do well. Stress impacts their immune system. Snakes are stoic creatures- it's up to us to understand & provide for their needs if you expect them to have good health & longevity, as opposed to just existing.

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I agree, She looks like a very healthy snake. All she needs is better husbandry.
Its a shame shes been in such a bare enclosure for 11 years. :(

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Originally Posted by leosantare

I know my enclosure is pretty bare, but she has the necessities. I'm making a PVC jungle gym to put in place of the blue tub/hide box.

Thank you for all the help. If there is anything I can do to help her gain weight and become more active, please let me know.

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Doing the bare minimum is keeping her alive, But surviving is different from thriving. She needs more enrichment, That will help her become more active.
Shes bored.
A PVC jungle gym will help, But its still not enough. You don't need to go all out with her enclosure, Just add some foliage, Snug hides, Rocks or something rough, Half logs, etc.
Different textures in her enclosure would be great, Not everything should be smooth.

I haven't kept snakes that large in years, but I just wanted to add that I agree with the observations by bcr229. At her size and weight I think I'd be feeding her something like a small rabbit (about 1 lb.). Between that and some good exercise to get her muscle tone improved I think you'd see some weight gain, less lethargy and improved body condition.

For immediate enrichment I'd throw a sturdy step ladder into that enclosure and a couple of big cardboard boxes for her to explore. In the longer term I'd want to get a couple of big ledges in there for her just to start.

God I hate that I can't edit after ten minutes because now I feel like I am spamming. I feel like it's important to add that I don't want in any way to come off like I am being critical of you for her enclosure or need for enrichment.

The standards you have been using for her and the quality of her enclosure are outstanding within the traditional parameters of the hobby. Our understanding of snake cognitive abilities, capacity for learning, and the fact that captive management with insufficient mental stimulation has negative effects in the long term is a relatively recent area of knowledge. It's very well documented in the research, but the fact that it's important to provide an environmentally complex enclosure along with enrichment activities both in and out of the enclosure is unfortunately not yet the norm amongst keepers.

The fact that you may not have been aware that what you're seeing in your snake seems to be less about medical issues and more about environmental/husbandry issues isn't something I think you can be criticized about as our understanding of all this is still new and it's definitely not generally understood in the hobby.

In the meantime, enrichment does not have to be complicated or expensive. I often joke that my enclosures look more like a recycling center than a beautiful 'slice of nature'. I always admire the folks who have pretty enclosures but I place a premium on enrichment, so my enclosures are filled with things like cardboard boxes, baskets, stacked towels, crumpled up packing paper, shelves, stools and ladders they can climb, containers with different types of substrate that they can check out, and other weird stuff that I can easily swap in and out so that the snakes almost always have new stuff to explore and investigate.

Snakes who have not been kept in enriched environments tend to slow down mentally over time, so it can take them awhile to adjust to, and engage with, new activities and objects to explore. It's worth being patient with them and letting them proceed at their own pace.

Your snake has received really excellent care with you. That shows in her beautiful body condition and iridescence. You've gone above and beyond in meeting her basic needs. I'm just trying to support you in considering her needs for mental and physical challenges and stimulation. Thank goodness the hobby is starting to embrace this but we have a ways to go yet.

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

In the meantime, enrichment does not have to be complicated or expensive. I often joke that my enclosures look more like a recycling center than a beautiful 'slice of nature'. I always admire the folks who have pretty enclosures but I place a premium on enrichment, so my enclosures are filled with things like cardboard boxes, baskets, stacked towels, crumpled up packing paper, shelves, stools and ladders they can climb, containers with different types of substrate that they can check out, and other weird stuff that I can easily swap in and out so that the snakes almost always have new stuff to explore and investigate.

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I absolutely agree. Especially with larger snakes in large enclosures, It can get quite expensive to do a more natural set up.
Besides aesthetics, Cardboard boxes, baskets, etc., work wonderful!

A stable step-ladder is an easy alternative to "building a jungle gym", but either way, you can wrap some rope or even rags around parts of it for better grip (traction). Do make sure it resists tipping though- that's admittedly harder to do with a big & very strong snake.

I personally use a lot of natural branches for my snakes: I angle them crosswise in their tanks so they cross over & interlock in the middle, which keeps them very stable. (You can make sure they don't slip by using a twist wire- no sharp edges please!- or a zip-tie for more strength & permanence.) My snakes love to climb on them & often rest in/on their branches.

As already mentioned though, a snake that's never had these things may take a while before they'll use them- but don't let that stop you. The sooner you provide them, the sooner your snake will explore them, & that exploration may improve appetite as well.

You CAN totally fix this, y'know. :snake:

Yes, I have known Ari for many years and spoke to him recently. He is the one who told me about Newsprint and doesn't see a problem with it. I have been using Newsprint since she was a yearling and think it's great. It a good substrate for an enclosure that is always exposed to moisture. For example, it dries very quickly, before another misting cycle begins. Up until this started she would move all around her cage no problem with Newsprint. I plan on sticking with Newsprint.

She has not been in this enclosure for 11 years! She was in two smaller enclosures before hand. She has been in this enclosure for 5-6 years. It's easy to furnish and clean small enclosures. Plus, everything is affordable with small enclosures. This is not the case with large enclosures. Remember my enclosure is always being exposed to moisture so I can only put certain materials inside. Things that are rot proof and non porous, like plastic. Otherwise, I will end up with a lot of bacteria/mold and have a different problem. My point is, I did look into having natural looking things custom made out of epoxy, but it was way too expensive. I simply thought being sterile is most important.

Yes, I agree her enclosure is pretty bare and I was thinking she might depressed/bored. I went out and got a plastic step stool last night, thanks for the idea! I will post a pic tonight. Anymore immediate, plastic enrichments?

However being bored/depressed doesn't cause weight loss. If fact sitting around doing nothing while eating larger meals should do the opposite. She should be gaining weight instead.

I tried feeding her slightly larger meals and all that did was cause her to become very impacted. She also was going into back to back sheds. She seems to be pooping regularly/normally now and want to keep it that way. Plus, I was told by a very experienced boelens keeper not to feed them jumbo rats/small rabbits. I posted a picture of her after eating a 300g chicken and she looks pretty uncomfortable. I will post some xrays showing how impacted she was along with her "enlarged heart" according to the vet. In case I didn't mention it, her last bloodwork came back with low white and red blood cell counts.

I will try feeding her larger items again, exactly what should I be feeding her? I feel like I have been asking this the whole time.


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Her appetite is great, always has been. She has never refused a meal.

I was wondering if her metabolism changed from the antibiotics and from feeding her larger rats.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

...I will try feeding her larger items again, exactly what should I be feeding her? I feel like I have been asking this the whole time.


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You may have been asking, but also not reading some great replies you've gotten:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2782893

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Originally Posted by leosantare

Her appetite is great, always has been. She has never refused a meal.

I was wondering if her metabolism changed from the antibiotics and from feeding her larger rats.

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Antibiotics have a very negative effect on the digestive system- true for snakes as well as humans & others. Most of us find that adding probiotics to their meals after a course of antibiotics to be very helpful, since antibiotics destroy the good gut bacteria along with whatever infection they're intended to cure. Without adequate gut bacteria, the digestion is poor with nutrients NOT being fully absorbed. There are various products designed to replenish the gut bacteria in snakes: Nutribac & Bene-Bac have both been around a long time, & there are likely other options by now as well, for which you can search for what's available in your area. Never give these WHILE a snake is on antibiotics- only AFTER the course of treatment is done.

I've been thinking about your snake's enclosure. I understand the concerns with a high-moisture environment. One of my snakes is a Brazilian Rainbow Boa and I maintain her humidity at 90-99%.

The photo below is the 8' enclosure a friend maintains for her Boa. It's just an example of the level of environmental complexity that helps snakes maintain good physical condition and mental health.

I understand that you have your own preferences and concerns about how to set up Jasmine's enclosure. Knowing that, here are some things I would consider in order to provide environmental complexity:

Large potted plants in the enclosure. Live plants would be great but even artificial small trees would be good.

A big kitty litter pan filled with substrate that she can poke around in. Alternatively or in addition, a big pan filled with shredded paper towel that she can poke around in. Another thing she might enjoy for textures is a container with smooth river rock.

Hang double-braided nylon boat rope at a couple of levels. The rope is easily cleaned by just washing it in a bucket with warm water and mild dish soap.

Pavers or decorative rock or even stone floor tiles at one end or corner of the enclosure for some variety in texture.

Consider adding a big sisal cat tree. Sisal is easy to clean.

I would enthusiastically recommend this wooden climbing toy for toddlers. I recently got one and my larger snakes are just loving this thing. The wood can be easily sealed to eliminate concerns about moisture. https://tinyurl.com/5n85msm7

This shelf is available in 2 or 3 tiers: https://tinyurl.com/2trdsfwt

If you or anyone you know are DIY-ish you can use sheets of PVC from Home Depot to put some big shelves on the walls.

I have zero concerns about tossing cardboard boxes into my snake enclosures weekly as a temporary enrichment item - even with my snakes that require high humidity, mold is not an issue for that short time span. The same is true of piles of crumpled packing paper. You can crumple some of her newsprint substrate and pile it up for her to explore.

For a PVC pipe climbing area, you can hot glue twine around the pipe to make it more grippy. It's easy to pick it off and replace if needed.

I hope this helps.



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Hey, thanks for all the suggestions. However, this has nothing to do with her environment. I've had her outside in the yard a lot this summer. I put her on a 6ft ladder for a while and then let her move around in the grass. Although, she doesn't move around much even when outside. She still hasn't missed a meal but her body condition keeps getting worse.

Early on, she just had the loose/folded skin by her neck. Now, its going down her entire body. I was hoping it was from the antibiotics but that seems very unlikely at this point. As I mentioned, I reached out to Ari and he really has no clue what is wrong with her. Although, he does acknowledge that something is wrong. The only thing we came up with is to try changing the food source. I really don't think this is the problem but I will give it a try. After this, there isn't much else I can do.

She just doesn't seem to be processing food properly. It's as if the food dissappears after she eats it and she never ate anything. It has to be metabolic. I thought mabey when I increased the rodent size a few months back and she started shedding every 6-7 weeks, it messed up metabolism. Either way, I will be switching her over to cold blooded cafe from Rodent Pro tomorrow.

I'm not feeding her (1) extra large rat every 10 days anymore because every time I do, she ends up becoming impacted. Now, I'm feeding her (2) medium/large rats every 10 days instead. Ari is going to visit me next month. If her body condition doesn't improve/gains weight by then, I will relinquish her to him.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d6a2b05fc4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8e9a4d6c3e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f7565b4248.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2b88c1b017.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1b7a50f921.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...62161397c7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ead8e2a5d1.jpg

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Did you ever TRY adding the probiotics to her meals? That has everything to do with how well she processes her food.

Yes, I did. Although, I stopped after a while since there was no improvement.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

Yes, I did. Although, I stopped after a while since there was no improvement.

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So maybe it wasn't enough? As previously discussed, antibiotics harm both good and bad bacteria- & the good bacteria is essential to digest their food.

Think about it: This snake had a lot of medical treatment- that affects their health, & it's not always without harm. With snakes, it's a fine line between getting them well or making them worse off. Some of the worst outcomes I've seen in snakes are where the vet used multiple medications* on them, especially when given/used simultaneously. Snakes are more delicate than they seem- they don't handle this stuff well, not like some other pets that vets may do this with. It might have something to do with them being so stoic & hard to read also- it's hard to know when it's too much- until it's too late. Also, change (improvement) can be very slow in snakes- like "watching paint dry".

*And granted, snakes where a vet gave multiple meds were very sick to start with, but I'm just saying that's my impression- that simultaneous meds given to snakes often seem to backfire. Note, I'm a long time keeper, not a vet, not a vet tech. Just offering my impressions though, because I've seen a lot, & question plenty. I often remind others that it's far easier to keep a snake healthy than to get them well again if they get sick. FYI, I've had a number of snakes live into their mid-20's. I've been at this a while. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Also, change (improvement) can be very slow in snakes- like "watching paint dry".

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It's really important to remember just how much slower their metabolisms are from ours and how slowly they recover compared to us. Even in humans it can take months for bacteria to fully recover after heavy antibiotic usage, and food goes fully through our systems in a day or two. I'd say it's worth another shot, especially if nothing else is working.

It is very sad to see her in this condition. It is even more sad to think this might be caused from the antibiotics. She was given (10) injectable doses of Ceftazidime over the course of one month and (4) injectable doses of Ceftiofur of the course of one month.

Again I took her to the vet because of blood coming from the mouth, suspected stomotis. She has not bled from the mouth since. Does anyone think this is viral or cancer? At this point, is it definitely from the antibiotics? When I first took her to the vet her body condition and weight was very good. Since then, it continues to worsen.

Assuming it is the antibiotics, can she ever recover from them. As of now, she is getting worse, not better.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

It is very sad to see her in this condition. It is even more sad to think this might be caused from the antibiotics. She was given (10) injectable doses of Ceftazidime over the course of one month and (4) injectable doses of Ceftiofur of the course of one month.

Again I took her to the vet because of blood coming from the mouth, suspected stomotis. She has not bled from the mouth since. Does anyone think this is viral or cancer? At this point, is it definitely from the antibiotics? When I first took her to the vet her body condition and weight was very good. Since then, it continues to worsen.

Assuming it is the antibiotics, can she ever recover from them. As of now, she is getting worse, not better.

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That's my best & logical guess from the info you've shared- that it's from the antibiotics. Please remember that we're only seeing her online, & it's not our place to diagnose yours or any snake- we're not vets, & while we need vets, remember that their perspective is different from ours. Over the years, there have been times that I've known a snake had a problem but the vet couldn't see it- they only see our animals for a relatively short time, & their approach is to use things like meds or surgery for whatever issue they're focused on; they're often not that good at general husbandry, nor do they see the subtle changes that we do if we're observant owners. Remember that.

From the tests you've had done, & her background, it doesn't seem likely to be viral or cancer, (& as I recall, your vets have told you they see nothing wrong with her now?) so from the info given, antibiotics jump out at me as the MOST likely cause. I wouldn't keep running tests right now- I think she needs time & TLC to fully recover from those antibiotics. Yes, they helped her, but they also probably did some harm. That's common in the medical world- have you ever listened to tv commercials for a new (human) drug? All the side-effects they list are often shocking, but it's a trade off, it's a gamble that the "good outweighs the bad". You can cure one thing but hurt another, such as liver & kidney function, & that goes for all living things- humans & pets alike.

So I'd be very patient- give this beautiful girl all the time she needs- she seems to have damage to her gut from the symptoms you describe. I would guess that she needs probiotics in every meal, plenty of good food, rest & time- not the stress of more vet visits or tests, IMO. She needs your support & patience. Will she be the same as before? I don't know- all you can do is go forward & help her to be as healthy as she can be. She deserves that.

And if anyone has a better hunch, let's hear it?

She hasn't been to the vet in months and don't plan or taking her back. Nor do plan on testing her for anything else.

The last vet appointment was to get a second opinion. Nothing was done except a quick visual inspection. The vet told me she is underweight which I already knew. He recommended to increase the temperature a bit. I never changed her temps and never went back to that vet.

Months ago, I told my vet what you said about the antibiotics, that they can kill the good bacteria in the gut. Her response was no they don't because they were injectable antibiotics.

It's hard to say, if her body condition started going down hill before the antibiotics or not. Although, its been months since the last antibiotics and her body condition slowly continues to get worse. I will start giving her the Nutribac again. Not only do I put the stuff in the rat's mouth, I also put a bunch all over the rat after I soak the rat. I hate the stuff though since it becomes so sticky and makes a mess. The next day my snake has all the residue and rat fur stuck on her and in the cage.

I only mentioned cancer because apparently it can be the cause of stomotis.


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Originally Posted by leosantare

...Months ago, I told my vet what you said about the antibiotics, that they can kill the good bacteria in the gut. Her response was no they don't because they were injectable antibiotics.

It's hard to say, if her body condition started going down hill before the antibiotics or not. Although, its been months since the last antibiotics and her body condition slowly continues to get worse. I will start giving her the Nutribac again. Not only do I put the stuff in the rat's mouth, I also put a bunch all over the rat after I soak the rat. I hate the stuff though since it becomes so sticky and makes a mess. The next day my snake has all the residue and rat fur stuck on her and in the cage.

I only mentioned cancer because apparently it can be the cause of stomotis.


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While I would agree that it seems likely for injectable antibiotics to be "better" for the stomach than those dosed orally, there is still some debate about this to the best of my knowledge. Remember that medicine (human or animal) is a "practice"- that more is learned all the time, & thinking changes. When you consider how stoic snakes are, & how slowly their body recovers, that should tell you that current thinking might be wrong, or that these drugs may not be as free of side-effects as is currently assumed. Just saying. Snakes are not ideal subjects for experiments either. Vets do the best they can with what they know & have, & they continue to learn during their career.

Supplements like Nutribac are best put in the prey's oral cavity (mouth) or injected into the body of the prey (if soluble). You might try opening a small slit on the underside to put the powder inside the body of the prey, but I agree...I'm not a fan of dusting it on the outside of the prey- it's mostly wasted there, & messy, & might make some snakes refuse to eat because their food smells wrong.

I think that if your snake had cancer that caused the stomatitis, the stomatitis would still be an issue -it would have recurred- but you said it's been cured. So it's not likely cancer.

When you want a snake to gain weight, you might also try making some changes to what you're feeding. Feeding younger rats, & like 2 at a time- might help. I've always raised my own rodents, & when I've had snakes that needed some "TLC" for whatever reason*, they might also be fed multiple fuzzy mice or rat "crawlers" (eyes closed), depending on the size of the snake- what is essentially "babyfood"-with a higher fat content (more calories). You don't want to overdue this, but just a suggestion to try- see if it makes a difference. The largest rats are the oldest & not necessarily the best nutrition. ;) You might also look into other prey -young rabbits, maybe? -if your snake will accept them. But try feeding younger prey & multiples as needed to get the right amount of food, & monitor the snake's weight so you don't go too far (don't make her overweight).

*For example ("TLC")- I once accepted an older & way under-fed rosy boa that was no longer wanted. They claimed she wasn't eating & sometimes barfed up her food- but they were keeping her in a small cage with 2 other rosy boas (all female), & temperatures were way too cool for them to digest. She was very stressed, it was obvious. For those who don't know, adult female rosy boas are only 3-4' long, with a narrow gape. So I tested her appetite with fuzzy mice- & you could almost see the smile on her face as she gulped them down until I said "that's enough for now" & let her rest & digest. After a few weeks of that, I gradually increased the size of her prey- she clearly digested just fine, without the stress & temperatures that were finally warm enough. She recovered very well- in fact so well that she became an excellent breeder for 5 years, & lived 11 years total with me before passing of actual old age. But at first, those fuzzies were just what she needed to digest easily, and put weight on her quickly- that's all I'm getting at. Don't be afraid to think outside the box when you feed this snake, if you want her to gain some weight.

Okay, I will just put as much as I can in the rat's mouth. I agree with your point about the possible cancer.

I will just keep doing what I'm doing. It's good she keeps eating and pooping but at some point she will die if she keeps losing weight.

It's very upsetting for me to handle her now because of her body condition. I have just about seen enough. That is why I'm going to give her another month. If there isn't any improvement by then, I will relinquish her. Believe me, I do not want to give her away but if it can save her life I will.

I will continue feeding her (2) medium rats every 10 days. Then, I will weigh her in early September. If she is under 7kg, I will give her to Ari who plans to be here in mid September. I'm almost positive she is already under 7kg.

Without sounding to complicated, what do you think the antibiotics actually did or is doing? It's like she isn't getting any calories from her food which sounds impossible. As if her metabolism is insanely fast. Do you think she can recover from this, is it possible she doesn't?

You would think, I would think feeding her larger meals or more frequently would make her gain weight. Well, I tried this for a bit on more than one occasion and she didn't gain weight. Instead she became impacted. Therefore, I can't do it. Any ideas how I can make her gain weight without impacting her? This sounds crazy, how about a small rat every 3 day or something? Either way, I'm paying very close attention to her pooping making sure she is not becoming impacted.





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Originally Posted by leosantare

Okay, I will just put as much as I can in the rat's mouth. I agree with your point about the possible cancer.

I will just keep doing what I'm doing. It's good she keeps eating and pooping but at some point she will die if she keeps losing weight.

It's very upsetting for me to handle her now because of her body condition. I have just about seen enough. That is why I'm going to give her another month. If there isn't any improvement by then, I will relinquish her. Believe me, I do not want to give her away but if it can save her life I will.

I will continue feeding her (2) medium rats every 10 days. Then, I will weigh her in early September. If she is under 7kg, I will give her to Ari who plans to be here in mid September. I'm almost positive she is already under 7kg.

Without sounding to complicated, what do you think the antibiotics actually did or is doing? It's like she isn't getting any calories from her food which sounds impossible. As if her metabolism is insanely fast. Do you think she can recover from this, is it possible she doesn't?

You would think, I would think feeding her larger meals or more frequently would make her gain weight. Well, I tried this for a bit on more than one occasion and she didn't gain weight. Instead she became impacted. Therefore, I can't do it. Any ideas how I can make her gain weight without impacting her? This sounds crazy, how about a small rat every 3 day or something? Either way, I'm paying very close attention to her pooping making sure she is not becoming impacted.

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If you feed 2 smaller rats, you'll also have more mouths to fill with probiotic. ;) And as I mentioned, I'd add some plump fuzzy/crawler rats to her diet for extra calories. Just don't feed much over the same (combined) WEIGHT of the prey as you've been feeding.

IF her problem is poor digestion (absorption), then you don't want to feed too much, OR too often ("every 3 days?" :colbert: ). ALL snakes need TIME to digest properly, & small rats do not digest in 3 days. They just don't. And you don't need a snake that's regurgitating meals, that's for sure. You might get away with one small rat per week, instead of 2 every 2 weeks, but I'm not sure I see any benefit of doing that.

And you've had her stool tested thoroughly for parasites, right? That's another common way that snakes eat well but keep losing weight.

As far as this snake becoming impacted, that's likely from feeding the large rats- as their fur is quite thick & plentiful. And maybe also from dehydration &/or insufficient exercise. Again, small to medium rats are more digestible- and better quality, IMO.

Sorry, but I cannot see into the future- snakes are a "work in progress" & if you're still struggling with this, perhaps rehoming her to a more experienced keeper (with this species) would be best for her survival & the stress & frustration you're obviously feeling. That's for you to decide.

I got the rats from cold blooded today, (10) large and (10) medium. Pretty much all the medium rats are 100g and all the large rats are 180g. I'm going to give her one of each, 280g total about every 9 days for now.

I'm getting them ready now. Her body condition looks very bad. Yet she is moving around like she is starving. She knows when im getting it ready and will strike before I can even get the door open all the way.

I just don't get it, doesn't make any sense to me. Thanks for all the help:)



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Yes, I've tested her fecal multiple times for parasites.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

Yes, I've tested her fecal multiple times for parasites.

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I was sure that you had- I just didn't have time to re-read the whole thread & didn't remember every detail. :gj: And a stool check is a no-brainer for most any vet.

I do not want for you to relinquish her and I am hoping with everything I am that it doesn't come to that. If it does, though, I can refer you to two possible places with extensive experience with snakes that have challenging health conditions, that operate under direct veterinary supervision and also provide enrichment to their snakes. I am BEYOND picky about my animals and if I ever had to surrender one, it would be to one of these two sites and nobody else.

Message me if it gets to that point, but I am going to hope very much that you and your beautiful snake can get through this together.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

You would think, I would think feeding her larger meals or more frequently would make her gain weight. Well, I tried this for a bit on more than one occasion and she didn't gain weight. Instead she became impacted. Therefore, I can't do it. Any ideas how I can make her gain weight without impacting her? This sounds crazy, how about a small rat every 3 day or something? Either way, I'm paying very close attention to her pooping making sure she is not becoming impacted.

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Did your vet ever suggest trying mineral oil as a preventive so your snake doesn't become impacted again? Usually it's a treatment.

https://reptile.guide/snake-poop/#Mineral-Oil has the dosage for treating an impaction. It just gets injected into a f/t feeder. As a preventive you may not need as much.

If you don't want to use mineral oil you can try fish oil capsules like this woman did to treat an impaction in her snake as a preventive instead. She is in Fiji where emergency vet care for exotic species is nonexistent. Enough of the fish oil did get to the impaction to help it pass.

https://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...d.php?t=749975

No, my vet didn't suggest a fecal, I requested it. Then, I stabbed her myself and sent it to RAL.

No, my vet didn't recommend mineral oil. I understand impaction is caused from dehydration, lack of excercise or over feeding. I've been handling her more, taking her out to excercise. She always has a large bowl of water, a misting system and I hand mist her everyday. Therefore, I don't think dehydration or lack of excercise is the reason. I think I was over feeding her. Do you disagree or are you suggesting to overfeed her with mineral oil?

I think there is a less chance of impaction with (2) smaller items instead of (1) larger one.

Do you think (2) rats totaling 280g is appropriate for a 9' python about 6.5-7kg? I feed her every 9-10 days. She should be 8.5+kg.

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My vet isn't crazy about using mineral oil unless it's a severe case of constipation or impacted urates.

I think given your experience with larger versus smaller food items, lean on your prior history and go with two smaller.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

No, my vet didn't suggest a fecal, I requested it. Then, I stabbed her myself and sent it to RAL.

No, my vet didn't recommend mineral oil. I understand impaction is caused from dehydration, lack of excercise or over feeding. I've been handling her more, taking her out to excercise. She always has a large bowl of water, a misting system and I hand mist her everyday. Therefore, I don't think dehydration or lack of excercise is the reason. I think I was over feeding her. Do you disagree or are you suggesting to overfeed her with mineral oil?

I think there is a less chance of impaction with (2) smaller items instead of (1) larger one.

Do you think (2) rats totaling 280g is appropriate for a 9' python about 6.5-7kg? I feed her every 9-10 days. She should be 8.5+kg.

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The amount of food sounds fine. I was suggesting that if you wanted to increase her intake but you had concerns about impaction, that using a bit of mineral oil or a fish oil capsule with every feeding would help prevent it since it doesn't appear to be caused by low humidity, low heat, or lack of exercise. It could just be that your individual critter is susceptible even with perfect husbandry.

Okay, I will keep that in mind and thanks for the mineral/fish oil tip. As long as the amount of food is okay, then I will keep it there. I finished her pvc jungle jym. It took my a while because they kept sending me the wrong parts. It's 36" tall x 32" wide.

Although, she seems so bad at this point I don't even think she will get to use it.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f04ed51177.jpg

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What do these pictures mean about her body condition? It's obvious to me her body condition is poor but I don't understand what is wrong.

She weighed in at 8.1kg last week so I don't think she is very underweight. This is around the weight she has been for the past year or so. I was shocked, I thought she would be around 6kg because of her body condition.


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Here are somehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...74a50f657f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...dc8885c1bf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3342437592.jpg

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Some more..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fd8a9412c6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d5fe254853.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...399a14e018.jpg

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More..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...85789cfb75.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...235c4c8334.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6969ec2258.jpg

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Your snake looks absolutely beautiful & fine. :gj:

Fine? I disagree. Her spine is literally bulging out. Do you see a lack of muscle?

If you honestly think her body condition is fine in the previous pictures, then her body condition was incredibly spectacular just over a year ago.

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It could just be that with the increased exercise your snake has lost fat but gained muscle, and thus is more toned and fit than a few months ago which is why it's thinner but not lighter. Most snakes in captivity are pretty sedentary even when they have a huge enclosure to use.

I had a BRB escape on Saturday night. I found him early this morning though if I'd walked into my living room 30 seconds later I'd have missed him, he was moving that fast. Over the 36 hours he was missing there was evidence (stuff knocked off tables and counters) that he'd gone up and down the stairs and into at least five different rooms.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

Ari is going to visit me next month. If her body condition doesn't improve/gains weight by then, I will relinquish her to him.

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I am curious if Ari visited?

What did he think about her weight and condition at that time? Did he give you any other insight, tips, things to try or change, etc?

No, he didn't visit but acknowledged something was wrong in the pictures. Ari first thought she was dehydrated, but her skin goes back fairly quickly and she has had 2 back to back perfect sheds.

He did help me make a humidity box and recommended carnivore critical care. I just started the critical care but as suspected, I can't fit much down the rats mouth before it comes spewing out.

This seems so bizarre to me. The only thing that makes sense is the antibiotics destroyed her gut that was mentioned.

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I contacted redlineshipping and was all set to send her to Ari. He wanted me to try the critical care first and then I got her 8.1kg weight.

This was the picture he saw something was wrong. From a month ago,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8604177555.jpg

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Is putting the critical care in the rodent's mouth the method Ari recommended? It is certainly true that there is a limited amount you can administer this way.

Did you ever get her regularly taking the probiotics? Did Ari have an opinion on the idea that the antibiotics may have imbalanced her gut flora? It can take many months to re-establish gut flora with probiotics after antibiotic use. I would be interested to see if several months of consistent use makes/made any difference.

I can see some areas of loss of mass in your photos. But because she is still shiny and iridescent, eating well and regularly, having perfect sheds, and now maintaining her weight...those things don't necessarily point to her being sick. People lose muscle tone with age, especially if they aren't active and so I wonder if that is part of what is going on here. She is certainly not underweight at this point.

The only other thing I can see that is of concern from your photos is the fact that her enclosure is right next to a window air conditioning unit. And so I wonder if the AC blowing cold air right onto/into her enclosure messes with her temperatures at all or maybe creates inconsistencies. Or, if the unit is harboring mold, bacteria, or any other bad junk that AC units tend to grow inside...perhaps by chance that is having a negative effect on her. If it were me, I would at least move the enclosure to not be so close to that and give it a good cleaning just in case.

I encourage you to continue to communicate your concerns with Ari and to get his feedback on things. He definitely has more experience with this species and I am glad that he can take her if both of you decide that is the best course of action.

Yes, giving the critical care in the way I described was Ari's recommendation. Ari doesn't think the antibiotics are the reason. As knowledgeable as he is, he really doesn't know what is wrong. I did try the Nutribac for quite a while but didn't see any improvement, so I stopped. Do you recommend I go back to the Nutribac and discontinue the critical care?

I did confirm that about 275g every 9-10 days is appropriate for her. I used to feed one rat this size but changed it to feeding two smaller rats that total 275g. I thought this might help with the impaction. Do you recommend I go back to feeding one item or continue with two items? Some say it's better to feed 2 smaller items because of the fat content, and others say, like my vet, it's not a concern.

At least we can acknowledge now she has been losing body mass. Yes, 8.1kg isn't a terrible weight but she should be 9-10kg. I can't say for sure, but she was probably 9+kg before this all started.

Any idea what can cause her to lose body mass like this? I'm not saying for sure, but it seems unlikely to me that it's from lack of excerise.

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The air conditioner is only in the window for half of the year. It's put away for the colder months now. I only have it so the room doesn't get too hot in the warmer months.

I thoroughly clean the entire enclosure every month. I can't move the enclosure, it takes up the entire room just about.

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I think there are some positives here. The snake is maintaining body weight; it's arguable whether the weight is optimal for her but it's holding steady and is at a reasonable level. Her iridescence speaks for itself and this along with stable weight, the fact that she's eating, and perfect sheds indicates that overall health is likely at least OK and possibly quite good. The muscle mass loss is slight - and it's at least arguable to call it 'loss', as it may be a shift in metabolism and body composition as she gets a bit older combined with the fact that she is apparently getting more exercise now. Her body composition may be changing a bit, and not necessarily in a bad way - as you know, it can take a LONG time for a snake to manifest physical changes. It takes a long time even in humans to see a muscle:fat ratio difference due to diet or exercise changes; it takes much, much longer to see this in a snake.

Overall, I am just not seeing the indications that I would expect to see in an animal with a metabolic, immune system, or food processing disorder.

But I still want to be respectful of your concerns, and I understand that anything you read here is still not real evidence for you. If you are interested, message me and I will give you the phone number of an exotics veterinarian that I would trust with any of my snakes under any circumstances. She collaborates with the University of Colorado and University of Florida veterinary schools when laboratory testing is needed that is more complex than her local labs can provide (identifying specific viral strains of arenavirus or serpentovirus; muscle biopsy to identify metabolic disorders, etc.). I realize she won't be working directly with your snake, but she could review records, consult with you, and recommend specific further assessment or testing if it seems necessary.