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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by cletus
People of legal age should be able to do what they want provided it doesn't harm others. I don't smoke and I honestly know zilch about vaping and I don't judge. You be you and I'll be me.
Couldn't agree more.
"My choice is what I choose to do
And if I'm causing no harm
It shouldn't bother you.
Your choice is who you choose to be
And if you're causing no harm
Then you're alright with me"
---- Ben Harper
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiga 01453
Couldn't agree more.
"My choice is what I choose to do
And if I'm causing no harm
It shouldn't bother you.
Your choice is who you choose to be
And if you're causing no harm
Then you're alright with me"
---- Ben Harper
That sounds great on paper, but it's society that picks up the tab for all those who get sick or injured & cannot pay their own way, and that includes those under-age.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
That sounds great on paper, but it's society that picks up the tab for all those who get sick or injured & cannot pay their own way, and that includes those under-age.
If we went with this belief everything would be illegal. So what you are saying is that only people that pay for their medical services have the right to do what makes them happy.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by sur3fir3
If we went with this belief everything would be illegal. So what you are saying is that only people that pay for their medical services have the right to do what makes them happy.
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Pretty much saying that the government (which is representing the interests of our society) has a role in preventing self-destructive behaviors when your common sense
fails to preclude them...because the rest of us do pick up the tab, or are impacted in other ways.
I'm all for personal freedom & personal responsibility but people don't all mean the same thing when they talk about it. It's the same reason we have speed limits on
our roads: just because it feels great to some who would love to drive far faster doesn't make it safe or sensible for that to be allowed...there are consequences.
I don't personally care if you choose to self-destruct...that's your business. Until it affects others...
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
Pretty much saying that the government (which is representing the interests of our society) has a role in preventing self-destructive behaviors when your common sense
fails to preclude them...because the rest of us do pick up the tab, or are impacted in other ways.
I'm all for personal freedom & personal responsibility but people don't all mean the same thing when they talk about it. It's the same reason we have speed limits on
our roads: just because it feels great to some who would love to drive far faster doesn't make it safe or sensible for that to be allowed...there are consequences.
I don't personally care if you choose to self-destruct...that's your business. Until it affects others...
Ok. And in this instance I am choosing to do something that will impact my health less than smoking cigarettes. Everyone is failing to see that used properly vaping can and will save lives. If we are already inhaling the smoke from combustibles vaping is the better of the two. If we really want to address the problem of teen vaping they need to looking at only allowing vaping products to be sold at specific vaping stores that dont even allow kids to enter. It is like an adult store. The problem is selling these devices and juice at gas stations where children have access to them.
I dont disagree with regulation, I do disagree with an outright ban.
Let's talk about what the regulation should be instead of arguing political beliefs.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by sur3fir3
Ok. And in this instance I am choosing to do something that will impact my health less than smoking cigarettes. Everyone is failing to see that used properly vaping can and will save lives. If we are already inhaling the smoke from combustibles vaping is the better of the two. If we really want to address the problem of teen vaping they need to looking at only allowing vaping products to be sold at specific vaping stores that dont even allow kids to enter. It is like an adult store. The problem is selling these devices and juice at gas stations where children have access to them.
I dont disagree with regulation, I do disagree with an outright ban.
Let's talk about what the regulation should be instead of arguing political beliefs.
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I can't believe what I am reading here. First of all there isn't enough data to make as bold a statement as vaping is less hazardous than smoking. Smoking has been around for centuries and has been researched for the better part of fifty years. While it is without a doubt deadly, it takes a long time for the effects to manifest. Vaping has been out for about two decades and the impact is already being seen. Vaping no more saves the life of a smoker than a meat grinder saves someone from a guillotine. It's simply a different path to the same result. And regarding letting people do as they wish, society has a responsibility to protect the public, sometimes from itself.
Last item is regarding live and let live. I would but you're asking me to live and let others commit slow suicide on my dime. When a hospital treats an indigent for a smoking or vaping related illness, the burden is shouldered by John Q Public in the form of another tax or an increase in our health benefit premiums, etc. The most frustrating thing about this is the person being treated can't usually afford the habit, but they still find the means to feed it and then we get to pay for the treatment.
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Just to play devil's advocate here....
I don't disagree with what's being said about government footing the bill.... however...
Based on vaping being banned, logic would tell us not only cigarettes and alcohol, but McDonald's, caffeine, energy drinks, fried food, sugar, potato chips, the sun, microwaves, cell phones, cured meats, salt, etc...etc...etc... should all be banned. They're ALL killing us too... Oh wait, people due in cars, ban 'em. People kill people using guns, knives, axes, rope a candlestick....ban 'em.
I'm exaggerating for effect, but trying to make a point. Obesity is a huge problem in this country, we're not banning McDonald's and Ben and Jerry's.
Meth kills people, we're not banning cough syrrup...
Again, making a point. But the point is....where do we draw the line??
My girlfriend is an RN and the clinical manager for a pulmonary specialty office. The vast majority of her patients are obese and/or cigarette smokers, many on government health care.
So, you make a valid point, but if it's ok to ban one it should all be banned.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiga 01453
Just to play devil's advocate here....
I don't disagree with what's being said about government footing the bill.... however...
Based on vaping being banned, logic would tell us not only cigarettes and alcohol, but McDonald's, caffeine, energy drinks, fried food, sugar, potato chips, the sun, microwaves, cell phones, cured meats, salt, etc...etc...etc... should all be banned. They're ALL killing us too... Oh wait, people due in cars, ban 'em. People kill people using guns, knives, axes, rope a candlestick....ban 'em.
I'm exaggerating for effect, but trying to make a point. Obesity is a huge problem in this country, we're not banning McDonald's and Ben and Jerry's.
Meth kills people, we're not banning cough syrrup...
Again, making a point. But the point is....where do we draw the line??
My girlfriend is an RN and the clinical manager for a pulmonary specialty office. The vast majority of her patients are obese and/or cigarette smokers, many on government health care.
So, you make a valid point, but if it's ok to ban one it should all be banned.
Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Unfortunately we DO have to draw some lines for the good of our civilization & locally, for the public. Research and common sense tells us which ones. Sure, cars kill & knives kill, but they're pretty useful & generally ok. You won't convince me that it's essential for anyone to be allowed to buy more weapons of mass destruction (more than they already do) for example, & yes, I favor banning assault weapons...weapons of war just don't belong on public streets no matter whose pitiful ego thinks they do...and the government is there to put limits on those things are are the most harmful to public health. Debates will go on...with the ones making money off such products are the ones pushing the hardest to keep them legal.
Let's talk about how cigarettes have been handled in our world: for many years, non-smokers were forced to inhale the smoke of others in work places, restaurants etc.Even now that most places have gone non-smoking, streets are still littered with cigarette butts & people who enjoy smoking still stand around the doorways of businesses where they are not allowed by law to smoke (FYI, smoke adheres to the hair & clothing of non-smokers that have to walk thru the clouds of smoke! :mad: Many of us prefer to take breathing seriously & would rather not reek.) AND burning butts tossed from vehicles along roadways still start massive brush fires that burn down peoples houses, ruin wild lands, kill wildlife, and guess what, we ALL pay for the damages. So the things that "the rest of us" pay for is not limited to the medical care of indigent patients, or those who just don't think they "need" medical insurance. :rolleyes:
Just because we can't stop people from over-eating or every other conceivable act of self-destruction doesn't meant that nothing should be banned or restricted in a civilized country. If you cannot tolerate a few rules meant for the "good of all" then I'm sure there are still places you can go live off the grid & no one will know or care what you do.
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I'm saying, I have as much a right to inhale vapor into my own lungs as anybody has the right to super size their double quarter pounder meal with fries and a cola, and wash it down with a milkshake
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiga 01453
I'm saying, I have as much a right to inhale vapor into my own lungs as anybody has the right to super size their double quarter pounder meal with fries and a cola, and wash it down with a milkshake
Good luck with that...
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
Good luck with that...
They're not hurting anybody but themselves and neither am I.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Unfortunately we DO have to draw some lines for the good of our civilization & locally, for the public. Research and common sense tells us which ones. Sure, cars kill & knives kill, but they're pretty useful & generally ok. You won't convince me that it's essential for anyone to be allowed to buy more weapons of mass destruction (more than they already do) for example, & yes, I favor banning assault weapons...weapons of war just don't belong on public streets no matter whose pitiful ego thinks they do...and the government is there to put limits on those things are are the most harmful to public health. Debates will go on...with the ones making money off such products are the ones pushing the hardest to keep them legal.
Let's talk about how cigarettes have been handled in our world: for many years, non-smokers were forced to inhale the smoke of others in work places, restaurants etc.Even now that most places have gone non-smoking, streets are still littered with cigarette butts & people who enjoy smoking still stand around the doorways of businesses where they are not allowed by law to smoke (FYI, smoke adheres to the hair & clothing of non-smokers that have to walk thru the clouds of smoke! :mad: Many of us prefer to take breathing seriously & would rather not reek.) AND burning butts tossed from vehicles along roadways still start massive brush fires that burn down peoples houses, ruin wild lands, kill wildlife, and guess what, we ALL pay for the damages. So the things that "the rest of us" pay for is not limited to the medical care of indigent patients, or those who just don't think they "need" medical insurance. :rolleyes:
Just because we can't stop people from over-eating or every other conceivable act of self-destruction doesn't meant that nothing should be banned or restricted in a civilized country. If you cannot tolerate a few rules meant for the "good of all" then I'm sure there are still places you can go live off the grid & no one will know or care what you do.
Most everything negative in this post is about smoking not vaping.
So I have been debating whether or not to post some personal information, so here it goes.
I have COPD I have been smoking since I was 13. It is impossible for me to stop even though I have copd. In an effort to do something different that might help my issue I decided to try vaping. Now 4 years later my copd progression has just about stopped. I dont need inhalers anymore, I can pass a spirometer test now, and I can even run around without feeling like I cant breathe. So you ask me how I know that vaping is better than smoking cigarettes? It's simple I should be the poster child for vaping. Even my doctor admitted that she was floored by the response my body had in switching from smoking to vaping. She even told me to keep vaping and not pick up smoking again. Now she did say she would rather see me not vape, but if i am going to do something, vaping is better than smoking.
On a side note nonsmokers see this as an us against them issue with smokers vs nonsmokers. Being a smoker doesnt make us gross or nasty. It makes us someone who fell prey to big tobacco's policies.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Thought I would add my 2 cents on this topic... I am a Cardio/Respiratory nurse and I can tell you that just like smoking cigarettes, vaping is just as bad. Anytime you are going to inhale chemicals into your lungs will result in developing disease or death in the end. Even when the body produces fluid on the lungs can result in death if not treated right away. Both nicotine and vaping chemicals are known as a sort of legal drug or stimulate and highly addictive thus making it hard to stop engaging in... :twocents:
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus1More
Thought I would add my 2 cents on this topic... I am a Cardio/Respiratory nurse and I can tell you that just like smoking cigarettes, vaping is just as bad. Anytime you are going to inhale chemicals into your lungs will result in developing disease or death in the end. Even when the body produces fluid on the lungs can result in death if not treated right away. Both nicotine and vaping chemicals are known as a sort of legal drug or stimulate and highly addictive thus making it hard to stop engaging in... :twocents:
If people's lungs were dying as a result from vaping we would be seeing multiple cases of this from vaping. And we arent. The cases we are seeing are from people using black market thc carts, and vitamin e acetate. And also that pesticide that turns into HCL when heated. Legal thc carts, and legitimate vaping juice does not contain any of those chemicals. I have had xrays and spirometer tests, stress tests, and everything has either shown an improvement or it showed little to no progression for the last 4 years. I just had another battery of tests this past summer.
So when someone can show me a legitimate case where all legitimate and legal vape products were used, that is when I will believe what is being said in the news.
I should add I actually think the chemical that turns to HCL is a fungicide. If someone wants the information I can find a source.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by sur3fir3
If people's lungs were dying as a result from vaping we would be seeing multiple cases of this from vaping. And we arent. The cases we are seeing are from people using black market thc carts, and vitamin e acetate. And also that pesticide that turns into HCL when heated. Legal thc carts, and legitimate vaping juice does not contain any of those chemicals. I have had xrays and spirometer tests, stress tests, and everything has either shown an improvement or it showed little to no progression for the last 4 years. I just had another battery of tests this past summer.
So when someone can show me a legitimate case where all legitimate and legal vape products were used, that is when I will believe what is being said in the news.
I should add I actually think the chemical that turns to HCL is a fungicide. If someone wants the information I can find a source.
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Ok! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. My point is that when you are inhaling substances such as nicotine or vaping juice into your body it will affect your lungs over time and for that matter really anything we put into our bodies that is not meant to will affect us over time. Even taking simple Advil or Tylenol over time will affect our liver over time. Just saying that I have witnessed some pretty harsh legitimate cases as a nurse and after seeing what I have seen in my career you kinda rethink alot of things. :peace:
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The Vaping Epidemic
“& yes, I favor banning assault weapons...weapons of war just don't belong on public streets no matter whose pitiful ego thinks they do...”
Well good thing every weapon already considered an assault weapon is already banned. Nothing on the current market has been considered a assault weapon for a long time. This relates heavily to the topic of banning vaping for the simple fact that the government bans the sale of vape juice because of the effects of black market and illegal products, all that does is take away from good law abiding citizens in the same since as infringement on a persons second amendment. An AR-15/ AK47 is just a semiautomatic rifle just like every legally owned gun sold, they hold a certain amount of ammo and shoot as much as the trigger can be pulled. Handguns come in bigger calibers that most rifle rounds and can even hold more ammo in some cases and are semiautomatic as well. Banning a legal semiautomatic AR because people do terrible things only disarms the individual who stands ready to protect himself and others, criminals will always commit criminal activity and law abiding citizens should not have to pay the price, in the instance of vaping or gun control. A majority of mass shooters where so mentally defective or already criminals, had the Government did their actual job things could have been different. One instance is the Air Force Vet in Texas who shot that church up. He was convicted of domestic assault and battery with a weapon while in the military, had the government reported properly he would of never been allowed to purchase any of his guns or ammo.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
It’s just natural selection at work here, guys. Let the idiots kill them selves off. The gene pool could use a little chlorine, if you know what I mean.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by reptileson
It’s just natural selection at work here, guys. Let the idiots kill them selves off. The gene pool could use a little chlorine, if you know what I mean.
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A statement of the truly ignorant.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiga 01453
A statement of the truly ignorant.
How so? You have medical professionals telling you that inhaling that stuff causes chemical burns on your lungs, but you still choose to use it because it makes you look/feel cool? You family is so lucky to have you.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by reptileson
How so? You have medical professionals telling you that inhaling that stuff causes chemical burns on your lungs, but you still choose to use it because it makes you look/feel cool? You family is so lucky to have you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reptileson
It’s just natural selection at work here, guys. Let the idiots kill them selves off. The gene pool could use a little chlorine, if you know what I mean.
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Ok first. this has been a decent converstaion until now. If you dont have something to add that actually says something please refrain from posting. 2nd. This isnt being done because I want to look cool, it is being done because at 13 I started smoking and have found it impossible to stop. Vaping has offered me a better life than smoking. I've been smoking for 23 years, and vaping for 4 years.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by reptileson
How so? You have medical professionals telling you that inhaling that stuff causes chemical burns on your lungs, but you still choose to use it because it makes you look/feel cool? You family is so lucky to have you.
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Yup, and medical professionals say don't eat fast food, don't drink caffeine, don't eat fried food....I could go on and on...
And if you had a clue, you'd know that the vast majority of cases have found that legally bought vape juices are not the issue. It's bootleg cartridges that use vitamin E to cut the THC. The vitamin E turns to cyanide, which causes the issues you mentioned. So yes, your statement was ignorant.
And you can crap on me all you want. But you don't know me or my family. So next time you bring my family into this I'll hunt you down and see if your courage in real life matches your courage from behind a keyboard.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiga 01453
Yup, and medical professionals say don't eat fast food, don't drink caffeine, don't eat fried food....I could go on and on...
And if you had a clue, you'd know that the vast majority of cases have found that legally bought vape juices are not the issue. It's bootleg cartridges that use vitamin E to cut the THC. The vitamin E turns to cyanide, which causes the issues you mentioned. So yes, your statement was ignorant.
And you can crap on me all you want. But you don't know me or my family. So next time you bring my family into this I'll hunt you down and see if your courage in real life matches your courage from behind a keyboard.
Hey craig dont let him/her bother you.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by sur3fir3
Hey craig dont let him/her bother you.
Sorry, having just buried my grandfather four days ago that hit a nerve.
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No its all good. Family should not be brought into this. There is no reason to belittle people when trying to make a point. It just shows alot of immaturity.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by sur3fir3
No its all good. Family should not be brought into this. There is no reason to belittle people when trying to make a point. It just shows alot of immaturity.
I can handle all the poop somebody wants to shovel on me, but sarcastically saying my family must be proud. Uggggh. That hit a nerve.
And YES, my grandfather was VERY proud of me. I was clean and sober the last almost 7 years of his life. So yeah, him and my family are in fact PROUD.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jus1More
Ok! Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. My point is that when you are inhaling substances such as nicotine or vaping juice into your body it will affect your lungs over time and for that matter really anything we put into our bodies that is not meant to will affect us over time. Even taking simple Advil or Tylenol over time will affect our liver over time. Just saying that I have witnessed some pretty harsh legitimate cases as a nurse and after seeing what I have seen in my career you kinda rethink alot of things. :peace:
I completely agree with this statement. But I think most everyone is missing the point here. We are not saying that it is perfectly healthy, and that there are no effects from it. That is not even close to what is being said. But I would like to know about the cases you have seen from vaping. Have you seen this from people that are only vaping legitamate vape juice? Not stuff from the internet, and definitely not THC carts. Also how can you explain my test results, and how I feel. If vaping was killing the cells in our lungs I would think that this would be readily apparrant in my tests. I just don't see how people can claim that it does all this damage, when there is no proof. There is proof that the THC carts cause issues, but there hasn't been one case of someone that ONLY vapes where their lungs have been adversely affected. I completely respect your point of view and would like to hear about the cases you have seen personally. Also are you in a state where marijuana is illegal? Because if so it would be quite difficult to get legitimate THC carts in that state. You aslo have to take into account how many people are telling you the truth about their marijuana and vape usage.
I would love to hear more from you on what you have seen. I know you have to be careful with HIPAA, but could you please post some data without any identifying data in it?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sga2yf84ocY
I suggest everyone look at this video. I am not the only person whose life has gotten better because of vaping.
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This is for everyone that believes vaping is just as bad as cigs:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...cigarette-pods
This is from this link:
The Mayo Clinic study replicates the trend across the country of lung-injured patients overwhelmingly reporting the use of black market vape pods. As of yet, there hasn't been a single vape-related death or illness definitively proven to stem from the use of legal, FDA-approved vaping products.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
I want to jump back on here and say for the record, I am not in favor of a ban. I am not huge fan of government intervention or regulation because the government tends to overstep. There does however, still need to be an overseer because society has proven to be incapable of functioning well without it. I also was a smoker for 15 years. At my peak I was up to a pack and a half a day. So I am not coming from a place of inexperience or sanctimony. This is not a case of non-smoker vs smoker. To quit smoking was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It was hard in that I had to overcome an addition. For those here whom have never been addicted to anything, you can't possibly know. But at the same time, it was also simple. It was simple in that it was accomplished by simply never committing the act again. That is a simple concept. I have not had a cigarette since 1989. Everyday I don't have a cigarette, I am not a smoker. I also believe if I had a cigarette today I would be a smoker tomorrow. That is how strong of an addictive substance a cigarette and nicotine is. So where I take issue is with anything that puts nicotine or other addictive substances in a favorable light.
Now I would like to personally address Craig as he has been very passionate throughout this thread, and has been the focus of some undeserved comments. First of all I want to commend you on your sobriety. While I have never had that particular addiction I have had a lot of experience with family and friends that have, and have witnessed the absolute grip it can hold on people. So good on you there brother and keep fighting the good fight. I hope that someday you will find the same strength to overcome nicotine. Also, try hard not to give life to the negative comments. You're stronger than that. I am in favor of live and let live. We only get one crack at this so you might as well make the most of it. At the same time we, as a society, as adults, as a forum community, have a responsibility to try and do no harm. My issue with this thread, if I were to really put a point on it, is the strong defense of Vaping. And I know from having been a smoker, that an addict will defend their vice. I could always find a way to justify smoking when I smoked. I believe that time will most likely prove vaping to have negative impact on human health. And while I can understand that for some it is a more favorable form of nicotine delivery over cigarette smoking, that doesn't make it good. It is more the lesser of two evils. One might argue that Stalin was better than Hitler, but to say Stalin was good would be a gross inaccuracy.
I am the father of three children who are all grown now. When I was raising them, it was my job to teach them and mold their belief systems in a way that was beneficial to them becoming productive adults, even when it was contrary to my actions. For example, I didn't allow my 10 year old to watch an R rated movie, even if it were one of my favorite films. My first child was born about 11 months after I quit smoking and that wasn't a coincidence. It was a plan to not expose my children to it. So when I read this thread it makes me cringe a little. I know there are young people on this forum. What will be their take away? They are are here to soak up information about ball pythons. At the same time, this thread is available to them as well. Isn't it a bit irresponsible for anyone here to be championing a concept that may yet prove to be harmful? We have to be cautious about what we state and how it's perceived, especially if it could in anyway mislead someone to believe that an activity is "safe", as opposed to "not as bad as." I truly appreciate this forum and the exchange of information and ideas. I just want us all to be aware of the power we wield with our words. Words can uplift. Words can take down. Words can hurt. I used to tell my kids, words are like bullets. Once they leave your muzzle, you can't call them back and you can't control the collateral damage. So let's choose our words carefully and make sure we are aware of what is down range, before you unleash them.
There. "I've said my peace and counted to three"
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlditmars
I want to jump back on here and say for the record, I am not in favor of a ban. I am not huge fan of government intervention or regulation because the government tends to overstep. There does however, still need to be an overseer because society has proven to be incapable of functioning well without it. I also was a smoker for 15 years. At my peak I was up to a pack and a half a day. So I am not coming from a place of inexperience or sanctimony. This is not a case of non-smoker vs smoker. To quit smoking was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It was hard in that I had to overcome an addition. For those here whom have never been addicted to anything, you can't possibly know. But at the same time, it was also simple. It was simple in that it was accomplished by simply never committing the act again. That is a simple concept. I have not had a cigarette since 1989. Everyday I don't have a cigarette, I am not a smoker. I also believe if I had a cigarette today I would be a smoker tomorrow. That is how strong of an addictive substance a cigarette and nicotine is. So where I take issue is with anything that puts nicotine or other addictive substances in a favorable light.
Now I would like to personally address Craig as he has been very passionate throughout this thread, and has been the focus of some undeserved comments. First of all I want to commend you on your sobriety. While I have never had that particular addiction I have had a lot of experience with family and friends that have, and have witnessed the absolute grip it can hold on people. So good on you there brother and keep fighting the good fight. I hope that someday you will find the same strength to overcome nicotine. Also, try hard not to give life to the negative comments. You're stronger than that. I am in favor of live and let live. We only get one crack at this so you might as well make the most of it. At the same time we, as a society, as adults, as a forum community, have a responsibility to try and do no harm. My issue with this thread, if I were to really put a point on it, is the strong defense of Vaping. And I know from having been a smoker, that an addict will defend their vice. I could always find a way to justify smoking when I smoked. I believe that time will most likely prove vaping to have negative impact on human health. And while I can understand that for some it is a more favorable form of nicotine delivery over cigarette smoking, that doesn't make it good. It is more the lesser of two evils. One might argue that Stalin was better than Hitler, but to say Stalin was good would be a gross inaccuracy.
I am the father of three children who are all grown now. When I was raising them, it was my job to teach them and mold their belief systems in a way that was beneficial to them becoming productive adults, even when it was contrary to my actions. For example, I didn't allow my 10 year old to watch an R rated movie, even if it were one of my favorite films. My first child was born about 11 months after I quit smoking and that wasn't a coincidence. It was a plan to not expose my children to it. So when I read this thread it makes me cringe a little. I know there are young people on this forum. What will be their take away? They are are here to soak up information about ball pythons. At the same time, this thread is available to them as well. Isn't it a bit irresponsible for anyone here to be championing a concept that may yet prove to be harmful? We have to be cautious about what we state and how it's perceived, especially if it could in anyway mislead someone to believe that an activity is "safe", as opposed to "not as bad as." I truly appreciate this forum and the exchange of information and ideas. I just want us all to be aware of the power we wield with our words. Words can uplift. Words can take down. Words can hurt. I used to tell my kids, words are like bullets. Once they leave your muzzle, you can't call them back and you can't control the collateral damage. So let's choose our words carefully and make sure we are aware of what is down range, before you unleash them.
There. "I've said my peace and counted to three"
Extremely well said, top to bottom.
I definitely don't intend to advocate for vaping. I know it can't possibly be a good habit. And I am sure it's not good for me. And I hadn't thought about an addict defending their addiction regarding vaping. It never seemed the same as the way I used to glorify my drinking, but I can clearly see your point.
To me, I'm just a firm believer that if I'm not putting anybody else in harm's way I should be able to make my own decisions. I feel the same way about seat belt laws. I'm a grown man, let me decide (for the record, I do wear my seatbelt, hahahaha) or motorcycle helmet laws. Although I think it's extremely foolish to ride without a helmet I believe that adults should be able to make their own choice.
I already babbled about the list of other things that "should" be banned if vaping is...and where do we draw the line...blah blah blah....and I know some of the comparisons are asinine, but I'm just trying to prove a point.
I am certainly not suggesting anarchy, I obviously believe government and law officials have their place. Society would be a complete and utter nightmare otherwise. But I do believe they're crossing a line with outright bans without factual evidence that legally bought vape juice is killing people this quickly.
I mean, if they were truly concerned about an epidemic they'd be banging down every door of every known drug dealer, not just waiting to stockpile enough evidence to bring down the main suppliers. They'd be making sure there are open beds when people try to get clean. I've literally seen cases where people were clean for r two days and tried to check in to a facility. But since they peed clean they weren't admitted despite the track marks up and down their arms. They were literally told to go use and come back. That's insanity. One shot could be their last, and government run facilities are literally telling people to go use.
I guess what I'm saying is that priorities are all messed up. And their balogna excuses that it's about our health and well-being is an outright lie.
In closing, RL I admire and appreciate every word you said. Thank you.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlditmars
I want to jump back on here and say for the record, I am not in favor of a ban. I am not huge fan of government intervention or regulation because the government tends to overstep. There does however, still need to be an overseer because society has proven to be incapable of functioning well without it. I also was a smoker for 15 years. At my peak I was up to a pack and a half a day. So I am not coming from a place of inexperience or sanctimony. This is not a case of non-smoker vs smoker. To quit smoking was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It was hard in that I had to overcome an addition. For those here whom have never been addicted to anything, you can't possibly know. But at the same time, it was also simple. It was simple in that it was accomplished by simply never committing the act again. That is a simple concept. I have not had a cigarette since 1989. Everyday I don't have a cigarette, I am not a smoker. I also believe if I had a cigarette today I would be a smoker tomorrow. That is how strong of an addictive substance a cigarette and nicotine is. So where I take issue is with anything that puts nicotine or other addictive substances in a favorable light.
Now I would like to personally address Craig as he has been very passionate throughout this thread, and has been the focus of some undeserved comments. First of all I want to commend you on your sobriety. While I have never had that particular addiction I have had a lot of experience with family and friends that have, and have witnessed the absolute grip it can hold on people. So good on you there brother and keep fighting the good fight. I hope that someday you will find the same strength to overcome nicotine. Also, try hard not to give life to the negative comments. You're stronger than that. I am in favor of live and let live. We only get one crack at this so you might as well make the most of it. At the same time we, as a society, as adults, as a forum community, have a responsibility to try and do no harm. My issue with this thread, if I were to really put a point on it, is the strong defense of Vaping. And I know from having been a smoker, that an addict will defend their vice. I could always find a way to justify smoking when I smoked. I believe that time will most likely prove vaping to have negative impact on human health. And while I can understand that for some it is a more favorable form of nicotine delivery over cigarette smoking, that doesn't make it good. It is more the lesser of two evils. One might argue that Stalin was better than Hitler, but to say Stalin was good would be a gross inaccuracy.
I am the father of three children who are all grown now. When I was raising them, it was my job to teach them and mold their belief systems in a way that was beneficial to them becoming productive adults, even when it was contrary to my actions. For example, I didn't allow my 10 year old to watch an R rated movie, even if it were one of my favorite films. My first child was born about 11 months after I quit smoking and that wasn't a coincidence. It was a plan to not expose my children to it. So when I read this thread it makes me cringe a little. I know there are young people on this forum. What will be their take away? They are are here to soak up information about ball pythons. At the same time, this thread is available to them as well. Isn't it a bit irresponsible for anyone here to be championing a concept that may yet prove to be harmful? We have to be cautious about what we state and how it's perceived, especially if it could in anyway mislead someone to believe that an activity is "safe", as opposed to "not as bad as." I truly appreciate this forum and the exchange of information and ideas. I just want us all to be aware of the power we wield with our words. Words can uplift. Words can take down. Words can hurt. I used to tell my kids, words are like bullets. Once they leave your muzzle, you can't call them back and you can't control the collateral damage. So let's choose our words carefully and make sure we are aware of what is down range, before you unleash them.
There. "I've said my peace and counted to three"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craiga 01453
Extremely well said, top to bottom.
I definitely don't intend to advocate for vaping. I know it can't possibly be a good habit. And I am sure it's not good for me. And I hadn't thought about an addict defending their addiction regarding vaping. It never seemed the same as the way I used to glorify my drinking, but I can clearly see your point.
To me, I'm just a firm believer that if I'm not putting anybody else in harm's way I should be able to make my own decisions. I feel the same way about seat belt laws. I'm a grown man, let me decide (for the record, I do wear my seatbelt, hahahaha) or motorcycle helmet laws. Although I think it's extremely foolish to ride without a helmet I believe that adults should be able to make their own choice.
I already babbled about the list of other things that "should" be banned if vaping is...and where do we draw the line...blah blah blah....and I know some of the comparisons are asinine, but I'm just trying to prove a point.
I am certainly not suggesting anarchy, I obviously believe government and law officials have their place. Society would be a complete and utter nightmare otherwise. But I do believe they're crossing a line with outright bans without factual evidence that legally bought vape juice is killing people this quickly.
I mean, if they were truly concerned about an epidemic they'd be banging down every door of every known drug dealer, not just waiting to stockpile enough evidence to bring down the main suppliers. They'd be making sure there are open beds when people try to get clean. I've literally seen cases where people were clean for r two days and tried to check in to a facility. But since they peed clean they weren't admitted despite the track marks up and down their arms. They were literally told to go use and come back. That's insanity. One shot could be their last, and government run facilities are literally telling people to go use.
I guess what I'm saying is that priorities are all messed up. And their balogna excuses that it's about our health and well-being is an outright lie.
In closing, RL I admire and appreciate every word you said. Thank you.
OK So I agree with both of these posts. I dont really have much to add because Criag hit the nail on the head with his post.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
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Update on suspected cause of associated illness
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/08/healt...-bn/index.html
Breakthrough in CDC vaping illness investigation: Vitamin E acetate linked to THC may be to blame
https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...s-small-11.jpg
By Jen Christensen, CNN
Updated 2:28 PM ET, Fri November 8, 2019
(CNN)Vitamin E acetate, an additive sometimes used in THC and other vaping products, may be to blame for a national outbreak of e-cigarette-related lung injuries that's linked to dozens of deaths, according to US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention officials.
Dr. Anne Schuchat, the principal deputy director of the CDC, said she would characterize it as a breakthrough in the agency's investigation, although more tests are necessary.
https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...m-plus-169.jpg
Vaping lung injury cases now top 2,000, CDC says
"These new findings are significant," Schuchat said during a press briefing on Friday. "We have a strong culprit."
There is still more work to do and the CDC said it is continuing to test for a wide range of chemicals.
"This does not rule out other possible ingredients," Schuchat said. "There may be more than one cause."
The CDC says its tests found vitamin E acetate in samples taken from 29 patients who were sick with vaping-related illness in 10 states. THC, or tetrahydrocannabinol, the primary psychoactive component of the cannabis plant, or its metabolites were detected in 23 of 28 patients. Nicotine metabolites were detected in 16 of 26 patient specimens.
During the press briefing, CDC's Dr. James Pirkle described vitamin E acetate as "enormously sticky" when it goes into the lungs, and it "does hang around." Pirkle said it wouldn't be unusual for THC to be absent from some of the samples because it leaves the lungs faster. He added finding THC in 82% of the samples from 28 patients was "noteworthy."
In September, New York health officials linked cases of severe lung illness to vitamin E acetate in cannabis-containing vaping products. At the time, investigators said it was "a key focus" of the state's investigation into the illnesses.
Until the investigation is complete, the CDC suggests people refrain from using all vaping products with THC, no matter where people buy them. The investigation has found that many of these products patients used were bought online or received through friends or family, rather than through vaping shops or at licensed THC dispensaries.
Vitamin E is used in several products, such as lotions and in supplements, but the CDC said there is a "big difference" in putting vitamin E on the skin or swallowing it in pill and in inhaling the oily vitamin.
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Dr. Jennifer Layden, the chief medical officer and state epidemiologist with the Illinois Department of Public Health, said in the press briefing that in her state, they found the majority of cases of the people who were sick used THC, and that their materials came from "informal sources." In Illinois, she said, they had not had any cases associated with the state's medical marijuana program.
So far, there have been 2,051 cases of vaping associated illnesses, reported in every state, except for Alaska, as of November 5. States have reported at least 40 deaths.
Clarification: This story and headline has been updated to reflect that vitamin E acetate, which is sometimes used a thickening agent in THC vaping products, has been linked to vaping-related lung injuries.
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That's what I've been trying to tell people.
Legally bought, regulated nicotine vape juice is NOT the problem. Its illegally purchased THC cartridges that are making people sick amd killing people.
This whole ban is just plain stupid. It's government overstepping and taking away my right to choose.
If ANY of government's arguments or "reasons" were actually true I'd think differently.
Their first argument is public safety, yet I can still buy cigarettes. If public safety were REALLY their concern butts would be banned too.
Argument #2 - flavors are geared towards kids.... Yet I can buy Fruit Loop, Swedish Fish, Cotton Candy, Birthday Cake, etc...etc...etc...flavored vodka. That's not geared towards kids but the vape juice is???
It's hypocrisy at it's finest. It's wrong it's unfair and it's a perfect example of government going too far with their "power". Especially considering there are no facts to back up an outright ban. It's based on lies and speculation and exactly why I have no respect for the vast majority of politicians. Our government is no longer "for the people" but sadly for the few.
I'm as proud as anybody to be an American, but our government is a joke.
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Re: The Vaping Epidemic
there are 2 separate conversations happening here: one about vaping, and one very deep discussion on the role our government should play regarding personal liberties and informed consent. lol.
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the first confirmed vape death in the nation happened right here in the Chicago 'burbs. it was from a counterfeit THC cartridge. the media ran with "VAPING KILLS" instead of the truth: "UNREGULATED MARKETS KILL".
i thought it was common knowledge that counterfeit THC cartridges were to blame. this thread was a wild ride. everyone seems to have jumped on the ban-wagon (pun intended) which is just a bandaid on an ever-deepening wound: no regulation, no oversight, as the market grows bigger literally every day.
with the sweeping acceptance of cannabis comes the cannabis market. unfortunately, our government is notoriously slow at adapting laws and systems that keep up with modern times.
criminals are good at seizing opportunity: they are trying to get every cannabis dollar they can by any means necessary before they have to actually compete in a saturated market and produce product (spoiler alert: they will not survive).
this is what's happening, because there are essentially no consequences under the laws as they stand.
inhaling anything other than oxygen and exhaling anything other than CO2 is going to have a negative impact. period. i think we all can agree to that.
i am an avid supporter of personal liberties, which only stand as long as those liberties do not impede on the personal liberties of others. i have been preaching the decriminalization of cannabis since i was a pre-teen, and im so happy that my state will allow legal recreational cannabis sales in january 2020. the vape deaths were a big deal, but i stood by my beliefs and continued to try and educate people about cannabis.
but the other weekend my mom came home with CBD products. i was honestly floored. she has no idea what this crap is. one box didn't even list an address of the business. i told her she is not to take them until i do some research and test them myself.
do you see what im getting at here? there's two different conversations happening.
idk. im rambling now too. these are just my thoughts and opinions on it all i guess.
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