Toref/Torefet: Varanus Tristis Orientalis/Freckled Tree Monitor

That's good he's moving around a lot more Dave

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Originally Posted by richardhind1972

That's good he's moving around a lot more Dave

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Agreed. Frankly, it can get dizzying watching him.

He runs down a branch, to the other side of the tank, up a branch, across the perch, around again, etc. Sometimes he breaks to look out the acrylic doors. Little guy has a lot of energy, as we know :).

I am glad he likes the perch and seems to have found the hot spot, cool side, etc. I think he's doing really well now.

Toref didn't eat for the past 3 days. He's been pooping, but no food down the hatch.

I went in today to check on him. He wasn't in any hides.

I lifted the paper and he looked at me like, "Jerk, I was hiding here!"

I changed the paper and will hope he eats tomorrow. He's growing, I can see it. I wish he ate regularly and was taking advantage of his new big digs, but he's not there yet, "sigh."

Toref is still hiding a lot. However, I managed to get everything out of his tank today and get him out without incident. I cleaned his tank and he even "let" me pick him up out of his holding container and put him back in his tank. No pooping on me, which was good.

He is definitely growing, although I didn't weigh him today.

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I wonder if he has any idea what a handsome lizard he is...? :cool:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I wonder if he has any idea what a handsome lizard he is...? :cool:

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He might. That might be why he's so difficult. He figures he's good to look at, so I can deal with his mishegas (that's yiddish for nuttiness, craziness, idiosyncrasies, etc).

Toref came out for cage cleaning today and with a little less drama. He did slightly pee on me, but that's okay.

Once out, I got him in his holding container where he spent a lot of time looking eye to eye with Katie.

After I cleaned the cage, I got a chance to hold him a for a minute or two and he did calm down quite a bit. He also smelled Katie and tried to climb on her hand, but I kept him in mine as I am used to his dramatics and speed.

I weighed him and he's 35G! He was about 25G about 5 weeks ago when he moved into the new digs. I think he really like his new home.

Once in his cage, I got a decent video of him being pretty calm.

https://vimeo.com/349334364

Looking really great dave, looks proper chilled in the video, glad he's putting on weight too

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Toref had his cage cleaned and was a little less dramatic coming out, but did pee on me.

He did not when I put him back, but was still very squirmy.

He is about 1/10th his adult size, in terms of weight. Do I keep handling him once a week, or make more of an effort to calm him down? I've heard both schools of thought and want to do the right thing by him.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thank you.

I've no experience with these, of course, but I've known tricky creatures like him where you can only walk that fine line & hope you guess right for his benefit.

You don't want him afraid, yet too much interaction can backfire into food refusal & stress that affects his health. I hope someone that has kept these can be
of more clarity, but it might also be they each have their own personalities & tolerances, & you'll just have to play your own hunches. I know one thing though,
none of us could do any better.

I think Toref is really settled in now. He's shedding again, but still pounding food. Haven't been working on handling too much as he's about 40G now and has a long way to go. However, he looks bigger every week and seems a little better (maybe) every time I take him out to clean his tank.

Here are some pictures of my growing, and still not really handleable guy.

I pretty much let him run around the tank like a crazy animal and tire out a bit and then pick him up (still with fanfare). He urinated and urated on me again today. I spent a minute with him when I put him back and he calmed down some. I'll keep working with him and let grow some more before we try real handling.

He's pounding canned crickets (his favorite) and canned silkworms, super worms, cockroaches, etc. He also loves chopped up mice (his other favorite) but only gets that every 7-10 days. He's growing for sure, but I didn't weigh him today. He's also still shedding as you can see in the pictures.

I got a great shot of him with his tongue partially out. He's lucky he's so cool and cute, otherwise I wouldn't put up with his crap (or should I say urate?) :).

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I agree...he's cute enough to get away with most anything, lol.

He really is cute dave

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Not the best day with Toref! He peed on me when I took him out of his tank to clean AND when I put him back. I am annoyed. I had held him for a bit before putting him back and thought I was in the clear. He must have just peed on me as I put him back. I do not mind the pee so much but I do not want to reward the behavior with putting him back. Oh well. I'll work on it next week when I clean again.

In the meantime, I got a video of him in his holding container.

https://vimeo.com/357374979

Also, he's been devouring all the food I am giving him and I am upping the amount I feed him in each sitting. He's definitely growing, but I want to maintain growth at this point and not let is slow.

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[QUOTE=dakski;2710646]...I do not want to reward the behavior with putting him back. Oh well. I'll work on it next week when I clean again...[QUOTE]

I don't think it works that way for wild creatures like snakes & lizards...they don't relate to "rewards", they "go" when we scare it out of them or they just have to. ;)
I don't believe they are capable of understanding how to manipulate us, that really takes the more social creatures like dogs or monkeys & some kinds of birds, etc.

[QUOTE=Bogertophis;2710653][QUOTE=dakski;2710646]...I do not want to reward the behavior with putting him back. Oh well. I'll work on it next week when I clean again...

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I don't think it works that way for wild creatures like snakes & lizards...they don't relate to "rewards", they "go" when we scare it out of them or they just have to. ;)
I don't believe they are capable of understanding how to manipulate us, that really takes the more social creatures like dogs or monkeys & some kinds of birds, etc.

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Thats a good point. Just hope over time he calms down a little?

[QUOTE=dakski;2710654][QUOTE=Bogertophis;2710653]

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Originally Posted by dakski

...I do not want to reward the behavior with putting him back. Oh well. I'll work on it next week when I clean again...

Thats a good point. Just hope over time he calms down a little?

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I hope so too...for your sake -as the "recipient" LOL.

I've seen a few other posts here though where others have said similar things about not wanting to "reward" the snake that just bit them by putting them down (ie. giving up on handling), & I just really don't think that's how it is with snakes & lizards. When they don't feel safe with us, forcefully holding them longer won't win you any points, but rethinking one's approach & maybe taking more time will eventually pay off. Not always, but usually. I just don't think they understand the "reward" concept? Of course if you hold Toref long enough, he's bound to run out & be "empty"? :D

Toref is growing like a weed now. He and I had a little talk today and I learned two things. 1. When in doubt, he will still pee on me. 2. He's getting big nails - scratchy scratchy!

He did pee on me, but he was a little calmer, if barely. Also, I spoke to my buddy Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles, and I've read it here before, but he preached it, and I put my an undershirt I sweated like crazy in into his tank today after I cleaned it. He pointed out that Monitors are big on smell and if he gets used to my smell/scent in his tank, where he feels safe, that could go a long way. I am trying it, finally.

The video below is all of 13 seconds long. Shows his curiosity and his size now.


https://vimeo.com/362187521


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Originally Posted by dakski

...He did pee on me, but he was a little calmer, if barely...

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In other words, he pee'd on you, but he didn't enjoy it? :rofl: (sorry, my bad...)

Sounds like a good idea to get him used to your scent by installing a scented shirt in his home turf...I really hope it works, it's no fun being "the statue in the park". ;)

Toref looking great dave.
I love the way lizards seem to listen to you when you talk to them
I've the heard the thing about a scenting with a t-shirt in the tank, great idea, got nothing to loose either, fingers crossed

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When I put my shirt in the tank, I made another change as well. I replaced Toref's two cave hides (the ones with the lid on the top, but the bottom is solid and it's not the tank floor), which he is outgrowing, with the black Reptile Basics hides I use for the snakes as well. They have an offset opening, so he can feel secure in there, but maybe not quite as secure, which might not be a bad thing. They are also much lighter and easier to maneuver.

He was peeking out of one when I went to bring his food and he watched me put it down, then hid, then when I walked away (had things to do) he ate everything I put out.

I would really like him to be more aware of what I do in the tank, especially bringing food, so he gets used to that. Before, with the old cave hides, he was so tucked in there, I do not think he saw me put the food down and did not associate me with the food.

Hopefully, this is a good step also.

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Originally Posted by dakski

When I put my shirt in the tank, I made another change as well. I replaced Toref's two cave hides (the ones with the lid on the top, but the bottom is solid and it's not the tank floor), which he is outgrowing, with the black Reptile Basics hides I use for the snakes as well. They have an offset opening, so he can feel secure in there, but maybe not quite as secure, which might not be a bad thing. They are also much lighter and easier to maneuver.

He was peeking out of one when I went to bring his food and he watched me put it down, then hid, then when I walked away (had things to do) he ate everything I put out.

I would really like him to be more aware of what I do in the tank, especially bringing food, so he gets used to that. Before, with the old cave hides, he was so tucked in there, I do not think he saw me put the food down and did not associate me with the food.

Hopefully, this is a good step also.

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Fingers crossed that will work dave

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Those changes sound like they may help, I hope so too, Dave.

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Originally Posted by richardhind1972

Fingers crossed that will work dave

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Those changes sound like they may help, I hope so too, Dave.

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Thank you both. I have nothing to loose and everything to gain. He's also getting some size to him, which won't hurt (well, except for the nails/claws part :)). They are supposed to chill as they get bigger. I figure, by weight, he's about 1/6 to 1/8 of the way there. However, growing, as it does, is going much faster now as he's eating more and is a good 50G or so (if I had to guess) now.

Man, Toref can eat. He ate 4 large crickets and a large pinkie today. No wonder he's growing like crazy. He eats 4-5 days a week and that much in each sitting. I am sure he would eat more, but I don't want him getting lazy and compliant. Plus, historically, feeding every day, he skipped meals.

I have to be cognizant of offering more every few weeks though, as he's growing that fast! I think I am going to need a bigger bowl!

So, Toref is not calming down. The opposite. He leapt out of his tank today when I went to pick him up and I grabbed him behind my head before he jumped off. Further, when I went to pick him up from his holding enclosure, he tried to bite me. Oh, and yes, he did pee on me again.

I've had him for the better part of a year now and he's not calming down. He's growing like a weed and I learned recently that Monitor's are mildly venomous - not just Komodo Dragons, but all Monitor's. That's why I didn't get a a hognose snake, being a kidney transplant recipient and immune suppressed.

He's going to get a lot bigger - about 6-7X his current size, and if the aggression/defensiveness continues, he poses a decent threat. Further, the time and risk reward is not paying off. I spend a ton of time feeding him, cleaning up after him, etc. I still can't handle him.

Katie suggested to me tonight that we give him back to the local breeder I got him from. I would be lying if I said I hadn't had that thought. She's not pushing and has zero interaction with him. She just knows I vent about him a lot.

I have never given up on an animal before (as an adult) and stick by commitments. Further, I wanted a challenge. However, I think I might have bitten off more than I can chew here.

I also think I am anthropomorphizing. He doesn't care if I give him back to the breeder and he gets another home. It's not like he loves me (understatement of the year).

Any thoughts? Everyone I've spoken to says he's old enough that this is probably his personality. I've also read in (special ordered out of print) monitor books that mention this species, that they are very flighty and do not tend to calm down. They may be the size of Ackies, but not the temperament of them.

Again, I don't want to do wrong by Toref, but I do not think this a good fit. I've had this thought for a while, but was hoping he would grow out of it.

Every animal I have is handleable and docile. He's the outlier.

It's a lot of work taking care of an animal you can't really relate to as you'd hoped. What they call a "thankless job", really. I don't blame you one bit for feeling
this way. The only difference between you & me is that I knew without ever owning a monitor that it wasn't a pet I wanted. I wasn't aware that they are considered
to be mildly venomous...I thought it was just that their saliva was full of toxic germs because of their scavenging diet in the wild (which isn't much "better").

Gee, & to think we talked you out of a hognose snake, lol. "Oops!" :oops: I personally wouldn't care for his flightiness & speed either, but your health truly is the
most important consideration, IMO. The bigger he gets, the bigger risk of his bites to you. I'd rather have YOU around than Toref. ;)

Well, Toref is getting a new home. Or, should I say, Torefet! Turns out Toref/Torefet was a girl. That may have been part the problem as the females are known for being more skittish.

Old enough to sex now anyway.

I had bought Torefet from the my friend who owns a killer reptile store. The breeder, his buddy, came in and spoke to me for a while, and specializes in dwarf monitors. I thought I had it covered.

I gave Torefet back to the shop owner last night. He offered me credit or money. I said I don't want anything except a promise that you either give her back to the breeder, or find the best home possible and do not just sell her to anyone. He agreed. The shop owner is a standup guy who's been doing this for 20 years.

Of course when he took Torefet out of her carrying container, she peed on him, repeatedly! Multiple times! He was surprised, but amused.

For the record, I know I did the best for Torefet, but also recognize that this wasn't the best fit. Katie cemented it for me and gave me an out while still keeping my chin up, so did many on this forum.

Every animal I have is interesting, but all are handleable and not a threat to me. Torefet was pushing it to begin with, but turned out much more interesting than handleable, interactive, or even a display animal. I need to stick to my philosophy that if my niece (8) can't handle it, I shouldn't keep it.

Really sorry that you had to get rid of him, but happy for you that it ended on a somewhat positive note.

Guys, I have great news on Torefet!

Adam, my buddy at the reptile shop, loves her and is planning on keeping her. He's hoping to find a male from another bloodline (difficult because they are rare) and potentially breed them.

I visited the shop today for some supplies and he told me the good news. He really seems to enjoy her despite her attitude. He says she's gotten a tiny bit better, but has put on some size in the past month or so.

He promised to find a good home for her, and he did. She's currently a shop mascot!

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