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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident that can happen in a captive environment.
-adam
I don't think the issue is whether live feeding accidents happen with more or less frequency than other kinds of accidents in captivity. We're comparing live vs. dead feedings. What seems to be apparent to me is that more accidents happen with live feedings than with dead. I know you mentioned somewhere things that could go wrong with frozen thawed or prekilled mice/rats. But has anyone here ever actually had problems with this? We've heard various accounts of snakes being injured from live feedings. So it seems to me that feeding dead prey is safer than live. If you have circumstances in which you need to feed live prey, it sounds like it can be done somewhat safely, but I still believe there is some risk involved. F/t or p/k still sounds like the safer option to me, if that is possible for your pet.
By the way, I'm glad that you've been able to feed live to so many snakes for so long without any problems or injuries. But just because its never happened to you doesn't convince me that won't happen.
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I don't think those of us that feed live are trying to convince anyone of anything, other than feeding live is not as dangerous as too many people make it out to be.
I still remember when a bunch of people were running around demonizing UTHs for burning up snakes. All because of a few stories and a couple of pictures. Yet when used properly and responsibly it is nearly risk free using a UTH. Same with feeding live. Is there risk??? Yes. Can you minimize it to the point of it being nearly risk free? Yes.
That is all we are saying folks. Is that feeding live is not bad, is not wrong and can be done safely.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertCoombs
Adam no not all of them were good feeders on f/t from day one but I have had no problem switching animals within a few feedings from fresh killed to frozen thawed
That's awesome that you've been as lucky as you have. Over the years I have seen many failed attempts to "switch over" ball pythons, in my own collection and others.
Even Smynx conceded that balls that are "switched over" can be picky eaters:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smynx
I prefer a breeder that starts snakes off on frozen/thawed prey. It makes for much less picky eaters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertCoombs
A good many is in the neiborhood of 10-15 times in my own collection and Ive seen it happen in others collections as well probly 4-5 times (imo one time is to many) the worst I saw was a BCI and a large rat at a pet shop the boa over shot his aim hung the rat with its bottom jaw and coiled any way the rat the proceded to( front end completly free) knaw away at the boa lot of blood and deep mouth wounds this was in seconds of the rat being dropped in to the cage ..shop keeper standing by quiclky reacted but there was more damage done allready than I would want to deal with in my own collection
No they werent all ball pythons (but when does chance pick a species)
I feed frozen because it works for me and I feel better about doing so
So for the purposes of this discussion and to help get a better handle on the numbers, how many of those 14-20 incidents were with ball pythons?
I can not talk specifically to "chance" or other species, but I will jump up and down and insist that ball pythons specifically do an EXCELLENT job of eating live prey without incident.
-adam
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Adam, you forgot to quote the rest of my statement:
Quote:
All the snakes I have that have had nothing but frozen/thawed food are excellent eaters and have never missed a feeding unless their eyes were clouded over during a shed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
We're comparing live vs. dead feedings.
That may be what YOU are doing, but I am trying to shed some light on the myth that there is risk in live feeding. By understanding that, you will see that examining risk in other aspects of captive husbandry is relavent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I know you mentioned somewhere things that could go wrong with frozen thawed or prekilled mice/rats. But has anyone here ever actually had problems with this?
Certainly. There have been incidenets documented with the AARAV of gastrointestinal infections resulting from rodents not being thawed properly. I really prefer not to talk about things like that though, because unlike many who seem to be against live feedings I choose not to sensationalize a rare occorance that may sway someone from choosing a feeding method that works for them. I'd rather focus on the positive aspects of FT, PK, and live feedings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
like it can be done somewhat safely
10,000 feedings a year without incident is "somewhat" safe? ... LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
By the way, I'm glad that you've been able to feed live to so many snakes for so long without any problems or injuries. But just because its never happened to you doesn't convince me that won't happen.
So you're saying that I've just been lucky? ... I really wish I had that kind of luck ... It hasn't happened and it won't happen because I am careful, controlled, responsible, and because under those circumstances feeding live is safe.
-adam
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Quote:
I think that statment is debatable (i really don't like the word arguable) as we've seen. No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident that can happen in a captive environment.
Then I have some bridges to sell you. Dead rats don't bite and the most IMMEDIATE risk your snake faces from prey is mechanical biting damage - some people would rather remove that from the equation and regardless of any other possibilities they are doing so in the interest of their herp. Given the choice between a BP who's been transitioned to f/t and one geared to take live how many folks would not opt for the former when making a purchase?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Given the choice between a BP who's been transitioned to f/t and one geared to take live how many folks would not opt for the former when making a purchase?
LOL ... How many captive bred hatchling ball pythons have you gotten to take their first meal? I've got bad news for you, but almost all of them are started on live and then transitioned to f/t. It is extremely rare that a ball python will take a FT meal as it's first.
If you have some type of experience or evidence to refute this, I'd really like to hear it.
If you can name a couple of breeders that you think are starting their hatchlings on FT I'd really like to talk to them .... LOL
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Dead rats don't bite and the most IMMEDIATE risk your snake faces from prey is mechanical biting damage - some people would rather remove that from the equation and regardless of any other possibilities they are doing so in the interest of their herp.
I guess that when I feed animals valued at $15,000, $25,000, and $50,000 live food, I'm not acting in their interest?
That was kinda a personal jab at people feeding live wouldn't ya think?
At least I've never tried to imply that people feeding FT or PK were doing things "wrong" are not caring correctly for their animals.
-adam
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I NEVER claimed any were started on f/t. In fact I think I used the phrase transitioned to in the statement you quoted. And yes, certainly I'd take one who's already on f/t than one who has only taken live. Refute away.
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Quote:
I guess that when I feed animals valued at $15,000, $25,000, and $50,000 live food, I'm not acting in their interest?
Now you are actively reaching erroneous conclusions through bad logic. Because that is part of their rationale for feeding live in no way reflects on your practices.
Quote:
That was kinda a personal jab at people feeding live wouldn't ya think?
Not at all and I'm amazed you would take it that way.
Quote:
At least I've never tried to imply that people feeding FT or PK were doing things "wrong" are not caring correctly for their animals.
By extension of the logic you just employed (by turning my statement into a perceived "personal jab") I think it could be taken that way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Refute away.
WOW ... getting kind of personal there too? I was under the impression that you were a mod here? I'd really only like to continue if we can show a certain measure of respect for each other. I know I have nothing but the utmost respect for your views and couldn't imagine why I wouldn't be entitled to the same.
All that said ... What I now don't understand is that if a "transitioned" animal is acceptable and one that is "geared to taking live" is not, then what was the "transitioned" animal before the "transition"? I would think it was an animal that was "geared to taking live" and hence the same thing?
-adam
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Wasn't disrespectful - sorry you took it that way. Everyone has a right to their point of view and that is respected if not valued here. I was still a little taken aback by the "personal slam" that I felt had unfairly been attributed to me (which to reiterate it was not).
To the latter half: I don't argue that any BPs would start on f/t, but it would seem many breeders I have spoken to do make the effort to switch them over to f/t at least in those they intend to sell. "What's it feeding on? Live or f/t" is a question I have heard directed to breeders at herp shows numerous times - so whether they do it for marketing value, safety reasons or from a standpoint of economical bulk-purchasing of prey they do seem to make it a point of letting potential buyers know this information. That attempt to get them switched or transitioned to f/t vs one which has been fed live exclusively (what I meant by "geared to taking live:) was all I was refering to.
Please don't take that as any sort of slam against anyone - I am merely relaying what I have experienced - I am sure there are appreciable numbers of folks who don't subscribe to that and I think that's fine and I do respect their decision.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
We're comparing live vs. dead feedings.
That may be what YOU are doing, but I am trying to shed some light on the myth that there is risk in live feeding. By understanding that, you will see that examining risk in other aspects of captive husbandry is relavent.
I was referring to Smulkin's comment, "Inarguably dead = safER than live prey" to which you responded "I think that statment is debatable ...No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident..." I was simply pointing out that I don't think your point (while a valid one) has anything to do with Smulkin's point that dead prey are safer than live prey. Unless you're suggesting that accidents happen with dead prey just as much as with live prey?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
There have been incidenets documented with the AARAV of gastrointestinal infections resulting from rodents not being thawed properly.
I understand that that HAS happened. I was asking if anyone here has had a problem themselves or has heard of this happening to someone they know. I've never heard anyone talk about how their snake got sick or died because of an f/t mouse. I HAVE heard people talk about how their snake got bit or scratched during a live feeding. Also, I have control over thawing out my rats, and ensuring that they are completely thawed. I don't have complete control over what a mouse or rat can do to my snake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
10,000 feedings a year without incident is "somewhat" safe? ... LOL
Glad you think I'm so funny. Happy to entertain. 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So you're saying that I've just been lucky? ... I really wish I had that kind of luck.
Call it what you want. I'm just saying that you've never had problems. That's wonderful for you. Other people have had problems, and that's enough for me!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Wasn't disrespectful - sorry you took it that way. Everyone has a right to their point of view and that is respected if not valued here. I was still a little taken aback by the "personal slam" that I felt had unfairly been attributed to me (which to reiterate it was not).
"Refute away" certainly wasn't polite, can we agree on that? At least it's something that I don't usually hear in mature discussions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
To the latter half: I don't argue that any BPs would start on f/t, but it would seem many breeders I have spoken to do make the effort to switch them over to f/t at least in those they intend to sell. "What's it feeding on? Live or f/t" is a question I have heard directed to breeders at herp shows numerous times - so whether they do it for marketing value, safety reasons or from a standpoint of economical bulk-purchasing of prey they do seem to make it a point of letting potential buyers know this information. That attempt to get them switched or transitioned to f/t vs one which has been fed live exclusively (what I meant by "geared to taking live:) was all I was refering to.
At herp shows, the many corn snake breeders that attend often have their offspring on FT pinks simply because that anyone who has worked with corns in numbers knows that FT mouse pinkies in bulk are far easier to come by than live and baby corns will eat them readily.
I offer FT eaters to my customers that request them as do many other ball python breeders. But unless you have information to the contrary, I would feel safe stating that the VAST MAJORITY of "ball python" breeders start and maintain their hathlings on live.
I still can't understand the difference in your preference? An animal that has been "switched over" to FT as opposed to "one which has been fed live exclusively"? I mean, how was the switched over animal fed before the "switch"? Exclusively live right? So what exactly is the difference that you covet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smulkin
Please don't take that as any sort of slam against anyone - I am merely relaying what I have experienced - I am sure there are appreciable numbers of folks who don't subscribe to that and I think that's fine and I do respect their decision.
Didn't think it was a slam at all, your opinion is valid and I really do appreciate you posting it.
Have you personally experienced a ball pythons being bitten by a live rodent? How many live feedings would you estimate that you've done?
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I was referring to Smulkin's comment, "Inarguably dead = safER than live prey" to which you responded "I think that statment is debatable ...No one on this thread has provided any evidence to support the notion that live feeding accidents happen with any more frequency than any other kind of accident..." I was simply pointing out that I don't think your point (while a valid one) has anything to do with Smulkin's point that dead prey are safer than live prey. Unless you're suggesting that accidents happen with dead prey just as much as with live prey?
Nope, but what I am suggesting is that live feeding accidents are not as rampant as many claim and that through responsible ownership can be minimized to the point of elimination. I use my own experience as proof of that, making live equally as safe as PK or FT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I understand that that HAS happened. I was asking if anyone here has had a problem themselves or has heard of this happening to someone they know. I've never heard anyone talk about how their snake got sick or died because of an f/t mouse.
Many snakes are killed like this without the owner never knowing it. Unless a necropsy is performed there'd be no way to tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I HAVE heard people talk about how their snake got bit or scratched during a live feeding.
Other than the instances already cited on this thread, who? How many? All ball pythons or other types of snakes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
Also, I have control over thawing out my rats, and ensuring that they are completely thawed. I don't have complete control over what a mouse or rat can do to my snake.
But just as we have seen tragic pictures of ball pythons chewed by rats left in with them for weeks at a time by irresponsible owners, those same owners when feeding frozen thawed may not be as careful and feed a partially thawed animal. Carelessness is carelessness no matter what the method of feeding. Conversly, it sounds like if you HAD to feed live, you could do it in a way that was 100% safe because you are a RESPONSIBLE owner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
Glad you think I'm so funny. Happy to entertain. 8)
Don't know if you're funny at all, I'm just amused by your interpritation of the word "somewhat" :wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
Call it what you want. I'm just saying that you've never had problems. That's wonderful for you. Other people have had problems, and that's enough for me!
So let me ask you this? Do you ride or drive in a car? Do you know how many people get hurt and killed in cars every day around the world (with and without seatbelts)? There's a risk, but most reasonable people evaluate that risk and conclude that it is so minimal that they are willing to feel safe and go out and drive instead of taking a bus, bicycle, or walk (which are by far an order of magnitude safer). Yet, when applying that same evaluation of risk to live feedings you somehow deem it "unsafe"?
Why? Most people know someone in their family or very close that has been in a car accident, how many live feeding accidents have we documented on this thread vs. live feeding successes? .01%?
I'm sorry, but I'd rather feed my ball pythons live food than ride in a car ... LOL ... In reality, I do both, because I feel safe doing both!
-adam
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'Refute away' wasn't rude IMHO. You have responded to every single post here with a rebuttal (unless the post was in agreement w/your feeding method--in those cases, you responded in agreement), so it wasn't a far reach to assume you would refute what Smulkin had to say. No offence intended here either.
That being said, I think we've covered all the reasons for feeding live and all the reasons for feeding f/t or p/k. However, I will say that I choose to feed f/t because I am not willing to take the risk (whether it's a minute risk or not) that one of my animals will be harmed. There are other petty reasons why I won't feed live, but the only reason that really counts is this one.
Adam, you keep saying you are just 'debating' this issue, but it seems to me you are trying to get anyone that disagrees w/you to change their opinion--to your opinion-- on the matter. Before you ask, I have never personally witnessed a snake being harmed by a live rodent. I have only fed live prey twice, so no, I do not have a lot of experience w/that feeding method and I don't care. I choose f/t, end of story.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and choice of feeding method. 'Nuff said.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Other than the instances already cited on this thread, who? How many? All ball pythons or other types of snakes?
My point are the ones on this thread ARE enough for me. There was also another thread a while back where a user was feeding live and his/her bp got scratched or bit and it drew blood. There were pictures too. I think it might have even been a sticky at one point. I can't find the thread though, I think its been deleted. I'm sure their snake was fine, and it probably healed up just great, but why run the risk of putting my bp through that? In my opinion, f/t p/k is safer, and that's what I will continue to use.
This could go on forever. I think I've said all I need to say on this topic.
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Quote:
This could go on forever. I think I've said all I need to say on this topic.
AMEN to that!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
'Refute away' wasn't rude IMHO.
Maybe in your opinion it wasn't, but it was too me. It could easily be seen as a taunt or a challenge to respond. At the very least it was an assumption about my possible reaction. Either way, it had nothing to do with the topic and was directed at me (hence personal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
You have responded to every single post here with a rebuttal (unless the post was in agreement w/your feeding method--in those cases, you responded in agreement), so it wasn't a far reach to assume you would refute what Smulkin had to say. No offence intended here either.
No offence intended? You are assuming that you know how I may or may not react without ever having met me and I'm not supposed to be offended? Are you saying that you can sum me up and figure me out based on my posts on this thread thus far? Again, off topic and certainly personal.
Frankly from the great experiences I've had on ball-pythons.net so far I'd expect more from someone given the responsibilty to moderate this site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
That being said, I think we've covered all the reasons for feeding live and all the reasons for feeding f/t or p/k. However, I will say that I choose to feed f/t because I am not willing to take the risk (whether it's a minute risk or not) that one of my animals will be harmed. There are other petty reasons why I won't feed live, but the only reason that really counts is this one.
You do realize that this is the only part of your post that is not personal right? I wonder if I had chosen to post in this manner if I would be given such free reign not being a mod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
Adam, you keep saying you are just 'debating' this issue, but it seems to me you are trying to get anyone that disagrees w/you to change their opinion--to your opinion-- on the matter.
Again, I ask, how is this part not personal? "Seems to you"? You have no idea what my intentions are or are not. I have not initiated one post on this site. I have only responded to what I believe are over blown myths about the live feeding of ball pythons. I love this species and have spent almost my entire life working with them in some for or another. Live feeding is safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and choice of feeding method. 'Nuff said.
I totally agree! Although I ask that you keep your opinions about me and my intentions off of this thread. Those are certainly personal and not relevant here. I would be really disappointed to see the thread get locked (especially due to a moderator).
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie42204
You have responded to every single post here with a rebuttal (unless the post was in agreement w/your feeding method--in those cases, you responded in agreement),
Adam, you keep saying you are just 'debating' this issue, but it seems to me you are trying to get anyone that disagrees w/you to change their opinion--to your opinion-- on the matter.
thats usually what people do during a debate. they try to convince people of a certain view on an issue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
This could go on forever. I think I've said all I need to say on this topic.
No one is asking this to go on forever. You've voiced your opinion and that's awesome! Your comments were greatly appreciated! :D
-adam
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If any of you do feed live, could you please shed light on something for me? I am wondering what your emergency plan is, in the event your snake becomes bitten as it's coiling around the prey item. I an really interested to know this.
Say you have a prized ball python that is fed live rats by you. You serve the rat to the snake just like you always do, and the snake coils and somehow, the jaws of that rat clamp down around your snake's neck (or even worse, into the inner part of its mouth, if the snake has grabbed it headfirst.) What would you honestly be able to do to save your snake from damage in this situation?
I highly doubt that trying to remove the offending rat from the snake's coils, would work.
I am eagerly awaiting your responses. :)
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I am proud of our members in keeping this from devolving into a flame war so far, with such a controversial topic. However, the information provided seems to be declining, and the quality of the conversation is going downhill. If there are any more posts that appear to be personal in nature or steering the discussion in that direction, I WILL lock the thread, even if just temporarily to give time for folks to cool down. Still, it has been discussed both courteously and informatively for the most part, so let's try to stick to that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
I am wondering what your emergency plan is, in the event your snake becomes bitten as it's coiling around the prey item. I an really interested to know this.
I have no emergency plan. My collection is worth a lot of money (not nearly as much as some out there, but to me, a whole lot), but even more than that it is worth 10 years+ of very hard work. 10 years+ of cleaning cages at all hours of the night, 10 years+ of successes and failures, and 10 years+ of friendships with some of the coolest animals in the world.
It is worth all of that to me, and I have enough experience with successful live feedings of ball pythons that I know I don't need an emergency plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
Say you have a prized ball python that is fed live rats by you. You serve the rat to the snake just like you always do, and the snake coils and somehow, the jaws of that rat clamp down around your snake's neck (or even worse, into the inner part of its mouth, if the snake has grabbed it headfirst.) What would you honestly be able to do to save your snake from damage in this situation?
Snake's neck or inner part of it's mouth? How many live feedings have you actually seen? Ball pythons don't strike their prey in a way that would let this happen. Sure, when feeding PK or FT (especially FT) the odd heat pattern of the prey can confuse the snake and cause it's target to be a head or a leg, but when feeding live prey the heat imprint is exactly as it should be and the ball python "hits the right spot".
They are designed to eat live food. The prey they have primarily EVOLVED to eat is an especially sharped tooth and nasty little rodent. They, better than your or I, know just how to strike and coil around a rodent to avoid getting bitten or scratched and they do it in my collection time and time again with percision.
The stories on this thread of live feeding accidents that occor during the strike and constriction (as opposed to leaving a rodent unspervised for a length of time) sometimes make me wonder if a ball python under stress or in slightly poor health has problems hitting it's mark. It would explain a lot and is entirely feasible given that healthy ball pythons do soooo well eating live prey without incident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
I highly doubt that trying to remove the offending rat from the snake's coils, would work.
For live feddings, I don't have to worry about it. But over the years I've had to uncoil ball pythons from arms, legs, towels, and other items hit and constricted in accidental feeding responses and I don't think I understand what the issue would be?
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla
I am proud of our members in keeping this from devolving into a flame war so far, with such a controversial topic. However, the information provided seems to be declining, and the quality of the conversation is going downhill. If there are any more posts that appear to be personal in nature or steering the discussion in that direction, I WILL lock the thread, even if just temporarily to give time for folks to cool down. Still, it has been discussed both courteously and informatively for the most part, so let's try to stick to that.
Thanks Marla! and thank you to everyone invloved to far. This has to be one of the most mature discussions about ball python feeding methods that I've seen on the internet. It's really a testement to the quality of people on this site and the reason why I enjoy coming here.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
Say you have a prized ball python that is fed live rats by you. You serve the rat to the snake just like you always do, and the snake coils and somehow, the jaws of that rat clamp down around your snake's neck (or even worse, into the inner part of its mouth, if the snake has grabbed it headfirst.) What would you honestly be able to do to save your snake from damage in this situation?
Snake's neck or inner part of it's mouth? How many live feedings have you actually seen? Ball pythons don't strike their prey in a way that would let this happen. Sure, when feeding PK or FT (especially FT) the odd heat pattern of the prey can confuse the snake and cause it's target to be a head or a leg, but when feeding live prey the heat imprint is exactly as it should be and the ball python "hits the right spot".
Actually, as I think I may have mentioned earlier, I had a live feeding go awry with a bad strike that left the rat able to bite on the ball python's neck. I intervened, and the snake was okay (wound cleaned and treated at home, ball watched for unusual behavior or symptoms of infection), but the rat was able to hurt the snake. I don't know how likely a bite inside the mouth would be, but a bad strike can certainly allow for neck and possibly head biting, as well as body if the snake is coiled in a way to present it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
Say you have a prized ball python that is fed live rats by you. You serve the rat to the snake just like you always do, and the snake coils and somehow, the jaws of that rat clamp down around your snake's neck (or even worse, into the inner part of its mouth, if the snake has grabbed it headfirst.) What would you honestly be able to do to save your snake from damage in this situation?
Snake's neck or inner part of it's mouth? How many live feedings have you actually seen? Ball pythons don't strike their prey in a way that would let this happen. Sure, when feeding PK or FT (especially FT) the odd heat pattern of the prey can confuse the snake and cause it's target to be a head or a leg, but when feeding live prey the heat imprint is exactly as it should be and the ball python "hits the right spot".
Actually, as I think I may have mentioned earlier, I had a live feeding go awry with a bad strike that left the rat able to bite on the ball python's neck. I intervened, and the snake was okay (wound cleaned and treated at home, ball watched for unusual behavior or symptoms of infection), but the rat was able to hurt the snake. I don't know how likely a bite inside the mouth would be, but a bad strike can certainly allow for neck and possibly head biting, as well as body if the snake is coiled in a way to present it.
I wonder if there was some other condition that caused the errant strike? Stress, possible unknown illness, standing in the snakes like of sight but behind the rodent distorting the rodents natural heat signature, movement or strange smell in the room? 99% of my animals strike and coil and end up with the rodents mouth down and away from their body with a tight coil around it's neck. I can't begin to beleive that this is coincidence.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Thanks Marla! and thank you to everyone invloved to far. This has to be one of the most mature discussions about ball python feeding methods that I've seen on the internet. It's really a testement to the quality of people on this site and the reason why I enjoy coming here.
-adam
I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is absolutely the best reptile forum I have ever visited (which is why I bought a piece when the site became available). We have a good mix of experienced and new keepers and are generally able to discuss issues respectfully, even when we might disagree strongly.
I personally think that there are a lot more valid options (plastic vs. glass vs. wood vs. other, CHE vs. UTH vs. lamp, live vs. p/k vs. f/t, for examples) than absolute no-no's in reptile keeping (unsecured tops, unsafe heat rocks, failure to clean enclosures, for examples), and I'm glad that we can share what works for us and help others find what will work for them and their animals. The key, to me, is making sure what you're doing actually works for the animals and meets their needs -- nutrition, safety, health, etc. Beyond that, it's just technique and preference.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I wonder if there was some other condition that caused the errant strike? Stress, possible unknown illness, standing in the snakes like of sight but behind the rodent distorting the rodents natural heat signature, movement or strange smell in the room? 99% of my animals strike and coil and end up with the rodents mouth down and away from their body with a tight coil around it's neck. I can't begin to beleive that this is coincidence.
-adam
I have no idea if there may have been another condition involved, but if there was, she resolved it on her own and without discernable symptoms -- in fact, a bad strike or two and a nose rub scar (when she came to me) are the only troubles I've ever seen from her, unless you count the recent bite that was my fault. It was her third feeding with me (quick strikes each time, eager to eat), and took place in a bathtub as she was on loose substrate at that time. I was not in any way between her and her target, but kneeling a bit back from the tub so as to keep out of her line of sight and make clear the heat signature she needed to follow (easy enough in a tub). The door was shut, and there were no other humans or pets in the room. I don't know why she had bad aim, but this was not a sickly snake or on meds, a defensive strike, a snake returning from fasting, or any other obvious possible cause.
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I used to feed live mice to Ashes (who was then known as Octavia, before I knew he was male.) He ate that way for a few months, until a mouse bit his neck, about an inch behind his head, while he was in prestrike position. Ashes recoiled instantly, and thus began a fast that lasted several months. Only way I got him finally eating again, was to start feeding rat hoppers; maybe the different scent was less threatening, who knows?
Bela always grabs her prekilled prey headfirst, with the rat's nose going into her mouth. Even if that rat were merely stunned and not fully dead, I think it'd instinctively try to bite whatever was in its mouth's grasp.
I don't know, to each their own I guess. I just know what works for me. I just know that rat and mouse bties hurt a LOT, and I do not want even a ghost of a chance of my snake having to endure that. Too much can go wrong in a millisecond!
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Firstly, in terms of ways to dispatch prey, carbon dioxide is by far the most humane method. In a study done at Standford University, an analysis of the chemicals present in the brains of rodents after euthanization by carbon dioxide were absent of the chemical indicators of stress.
Now, I think a large part of the f/t vs live debate has to do with the number of ball pythons each of us has. There are pros and cons to each. However, the cons of feeding f/t and p/k become greatly magnified as the number of ball pythons in one's collection increases. Namely, the amount of time consumed. For someone with a small collection, the benefit of the reduced risk, minimal as it is, may outweight the cost. However, when feeding a large collection, the costs of feeding dead are significantly higher, with the cost outweighing the benefit.
In my own collection, I started off with a single ball python not too many months ago. Thawing out a single mouse or rat was quite simple, and I was happy to be avoiding whatever risk might have been involved. However, as my collection grew quite quickly (for a while I had 13 ball pythons, now down 2 to 11 after selling the hatchling males I received included with my pastel), and feeding frozen/thawed became much more difficult. After experiencing several split stomachs, and the smell of rotting flesh in the morning (even feeding very late at night, it begins to stink to high heaven by the next morning), frozen/thawed quickly lost its appeal. Discovering that most of the well-known breeders in Canada (including one I befriended) feed exclusively live, in addition to my history of feeding live to colubrids several years ago, I began to reasses the risk of feeding live. I have now come to the same conclusion that Adam has; feeding live saves a LOT of time, and is SAFE when done properly. And this is just with my collection of 11 ball pythons; if I had as many as Adam I'd probably even feel stronger about the advantages of feeding live.
Anyway, the main point I wanted to contribute was cost/benefit. In small collections, benefit > cost. In large collections, cost > benefit. The reason we see so much disagreement is that keeping ball pythons as pets is a much different experience than keeping them for the purposes of breeding. Neither is right or wrong; you should just be using whichever method best suits your needs.
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Good points, hhw. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Adam, I was wondering if you have owned / cared for any other species of snake?
thanks
Rusty
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Head Shots :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla
I have no idea if there may have been another condition involved, but if there was, she resolved it on her own and without discernable symptoms -- in fact, a bad strike or two and a nose rub scar (when she came to me) are the only troubles I've ever seen from her, unless you count the recent bite that was my fault. It was her third feeding with me (quick strikes each time, eager to eat), and took place in a bathtub as she was on loose substrate at that time. I was not in any way between her and her target, but kneeling a bit back from the tub so as to keep out of her line of sight and make clear the heat signature she needed to follow (easy enough in a tub). The door was shut, and there were no other humans or pets in the room. I don't know why she had bad aim, but this was not a sickly snake or on meds, a defensive strike, a snake returning from fasting, or any other obvious possible cause.
I have a couple of thoughts about your statement above.
1. Sounds like the animal that was bitten was a recent aquisition. A snake that has recently changed homes can remain stressed for a while. (Especially if it came in with a nose rub scar indicating that it's previous owner may not have been top notch when it comes to care). We all know that stressed ball pythons may not be the best feeders to begin with, but I would also contend that a stressed ball python is more likely to mis-strike a rodent or coil improperly if it does eat.
2. Personally I wouldn't feed a ball python in a bathtub. The cold surface coupled with the difficulty of the snakes ventral scales to get a good grip (i'm not even going to ask about the "loose substrate" thing :D ) would certainly make me uncomfortable and stressed if I were a ball python. Also, taking this snake out of the security of it's home and placing it into a large cold cavernous (to a ball python) area with a rodent was certainly not the optimal conditions for feeding. The stress of this situation could very well be the cause of the accident. Under more optimal conditions for your ball python, this may not have occured.
Ball pythons need and love security ... A nice warm dark place that touches them on all sides. If you take them out of that and throw them in the exact opposite, I would imagine that they are not at their best.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
I used to feed live mice to Ashes (who was then known as Octavia, before I knew he was male.) He ate that way for a few months, until a mouse bit his neck, about an inch behind his head, while he was in prestrike position.
Were you feeding in a seperate enclosure? Did your ball python have a hide from which to ambush the rodent from? What's the story with the mouse? Had it been offered to another snake before or gone without food for some time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
Bela always grabs her prekilled prey headfirst, with the rat's nose going into her mouth. Even if that rat were merely stunned and not fully dead, I think it'd instinctively try to bite whatever was in its mouth's grasp.
Pre-killed animals begin to dissapate heat from the moment they are put down. A PK'd animal has a signifigantly different heat signature than a live animal (ball pythons target their strikes by heat). It is quite common to see off targets (heads, rear-ends, thighs) with PK and FT animals because their heat signatures are nothing like what a ball python is instinctually ingrained to target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginevive
I don't know, to each their own I guess. I just know what works for me. I just know that rat and mouse bties hurt a LOT, and I do not want even a ghost of a chance of my snake having to endure that. Too much can go wrong in a millisecond!
You mean they hurt you a LOT right? Do you know or are you willing to speculate about the nerve endings and pain sensitivity of a ball python? Do you really believe that it's the same as a human beings? It has been proven in hundreds of lower order species that their nerve receptors and pain sensitivity is nowhere near that of a human. I don't know of a specific study done on ball pythons, but personally, I would have to believe that ball pythons are developmentally the same with other lower order species in this regard.
-adam
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Quote:
You mean they hurt you a LOT right? Do you know or are you willing to speculate about the nerve endings and pain sensitivity of a ball python? Do you really believe that it's the same as a human beings? It has been proven in hundreds of lower order species that their nerve receptors and pain sensitivity is nowhere near that of a human. I don't know of a specific study done on ball pythons, but personally, I would have to believe that ball pythons are developmentally the same with other lower order species in this regard.
I think what Gin was implying is that she wouldn't want to take the chance (Not to put words in her mouth at all). But I bet if you pinched your bp, it would pull away
Rusty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
Now, I think a large part of the f/t vs live debate
Why is everyone trying to make this a FT & PK vs. live debate? I have ZERO problems with people that feed FT & PK. I think that is awesome if you do and respect anyone that takes great care of their animals no matter how they feed them. I encourage people to feed FT, PK, and LIVE and have NO PROBLEMS with any of those choices.
What I am disputing is the myth that feeding live is not safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
the smell of rotting flesh in the morning (even feeding very late at night, it begins to stink to high heaven by the next morning)
One of my points exactly. FT & PK eaters are generally not as consistent feeders as LIVE eaters. If you have a ball python that eats FT or PK 52 weeks a year, GREAT! But that is really the exception and the result of outstanding husbandry, a fantastic ball python, and an excellent routine. Those aren't three planets that align too often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
Discovering that most of the well-known breeders in Canada (including one I befriended) feed exclusively live
Not just in Canada my friends. The big guys feed live not only because it's fast, but because it's effecient and there are far less missed meals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
if I had as many as Adam I'd probably even feel stronger about the advantages of feeding live.
The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with the size of my collection. It has to do with my experience. I've been keeping ball pythons for 25 years. I have been keeping them in huge numbers for the last 10. I know this animal VERY WELL and I know that feeding them live is safe.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles
Adam, I was wondering if you have owned / cared for any other species of snake?
thanks
Rusty
Not currently, for a good number of years now it's been all p. regius. They are my original and one true love. But in the last 25 years I have kept and bred; chondros, carpets, childrens, spotteds, savus, macklotts, bloods, kings, corns, milks, hognose, and boas. (a bunch of other species that I've owned and never bred).
I've also done rescue work, volunteered at reptile shops, and assisted in many reptile related surgeries (one of my closests friends is a DVM) which puts my hands on just about everything at one point and time.
I don't do hots and I am terrified of bugs!! ... LOL ... :lol:
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty_Reptiles
Quote:
You mean they hurt you a LOT right? Do you know or are you willing to speculate about the nerve endings and pain sensitivity of a ball python? Do you really believe that it's the same as a human beings? It has been proven in hundreds of lower order species that their nerve receptors and pain sensitivity is nowhere near that of a human. I don't know of a specific study done on ball pythons, but personally, I would have to believe that ball pythons are developmentally the same with other lower order species in this regard.
I think what Gin was implying is that she wouldn't want to take the chance (Not to put words in her mouth at all). But I bet if you pinched your bp, it would pull away
Rusty
It sure would pull away, but that would be a flight reflex, not necessarily a reaction to pain. If I touched some of my ball pythons with a pencil eraser they would pull away too.
There is no way to measure how much "pain" that pinch would cause and the modern scientific belief is that it is definitely not as much as in humans.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Why is everyone trying to make this a FT & PK vs. live debate? I have ZERO problems with people that feed FT & PK. I think that is awesome if you do and respect anyone that takes great care of their animals no matter how they feed them. I encourage people to feed FT, PK, and LIVE and have NO PROBLEMS with any of those choices.
What I am disputing is the myth that feeding live is not safe.
I realize that's the focus of your argument, but when discussing feeding live, it's impossible to escape the alternative methods as this would otherwise be an uncontrollable factor and no longer a particularly relevant discussion.. unless you were debating whether or not to keep ball pythons at all.
I agree that there's no point in try to argue the superiority of one method over another; they each have their pros and cons and it's up to the individual keeper to weigh those aspects for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
The strength of my convictions has nothing to do with the size of my collection. It has to do with my experience. I've been keeping ball pythons for 25 years. I have been keeping them in huge numbers for the last 10. I know this animal VERY WELL and I know that feeding them live is safe.
-adam
I wasn't so much referring to the strength of your convictions, but more to the realization of the costs and benefits of feeding live. Quite simply put, the more animals you have, the more advantageous it is to feed live. It's a lot more difficult to point out the amount of time saved to someone who's only ever had to feed a single snake.
As has already been discussed, it is SAFER to feed dead properly than to feed live properly. Now, I would agree with you that the difference is quite minute, yet it still exists. For that reason, whether or not it's worth your while to take advantage of this difference is highly dependent on the number of animals you keep.
You used the analogy of driving a car earlier; let's just say live is a regular car, and feeding dead is an armoured car that can only go up to a maximum of 30mph, where the only differences is the improved safety and slower speed, with all else being equal. Now, if you only need to drive 10 blocks to and from work each day where the speed limit is 35mph, it's probably worth it to drive that armoured car. However, if you need to drive 100miles to work when the speed limit's 100mph, it no longer makes sense to drive the armoured car.
Now, if you prefer to drive that 10 blocks at 35mph in the regular car, that's okay too. However, for a lot of people, that increased speed may not be worth it, and that's the boat most of the people who only keep ball pythons as pets are in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
I realize that's the focus of your argument, but when discussing feeding live, it's impossible to escape the alternative methods as this would otherwise be an uncontrollable factor and no longer a particularly relevant discussion.. unless you were debating whether or not to keep ball pythons at all.
Who's arguing here? I am presenting facts that prove a point and refuting supposition.
When discussing wether or not live feeding is safe it's extermely easy to "escape the alternative methods" as you put it. Just don't talk about them. My statement is "live feeding is safe" and has nothing to do with feeding FT or PK. I really don't understand the need to bring up other methods, but if they are brought I will answer them to steer back to my point. As far as I'm concerned FT or PK don't have to be discussed at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
As has already been discussed, it is SAFER to feed dead properly than to feed live properly. Now, I would agree with you that the difference is quite minute, yet it still exists. For that reason, whether or not it's worth your while to take advantage of this difference is highly dependent on the number of animals you keep.
How minute? And at what point does something become so minute that it really isn't anything? It's my personal feeling that compared to successes the number of live feeding accidents makes the risk so small that it can be discounted just as much as the risk associated with using heating elements, normal every day accidents, or a whole list of things that "could" harm your ball python.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
You used the analogy of driving a car earlier; let's just say live is a regular car, and feeding dead is an armoured car that can only go up to a maximum of 30mph, where the only differences is the improved safety and slower speed, with all else being equal. Now, if you only need to drive 10 blocks to and from work each day where the speed limit is 35mph, it's probably worth it to drive that armoured car. However, if you need to drive 100miles to work when the speed limit's 100mph, it no longer makes sense to drive the armoured car.
LOL ... talk about stacking an example to favor a particular side of a discussion! Armored car? Your kidding right? I'd prefer to keep within the bounds of reality ... If you're so paranoid that you need to drive an armored car to work, than I'm guessing you wouldn't even consider feeding your ball python live. And that would be just fine with me! :D
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
How minute? And at what point does something become so minute that it really isn't anything?
In the case of feeding live to ball pythons, I don't believe there's any point at which it's minute to the point of being dismissed completely, because you feed live several times, not just once. Let's just do the math here... you suggested 0.01% for 10,000 feedings a year? There would then be a 63% of an incident occuring in any given year. Over 10 years (100,000 feedings), it goes up to over 99.99%. Realistically, I think there's less than 0.01% of a serious injury occuring... possibly even a few orders of magnitude less... but how much less, I don't really know, so I would never disregard it completely.
LOL, I would've used a fuel efficient SUV as an example but that would've been even more unrealistic!!!
In all seriousness though, I didn't mean an armoured car as in what they use for banks, but just a car with a tougher body than usual that would have some increase in safety but where you would still be subject to risk. Perhaps I should've said an old volvo station wagon? Purely a hypothetical example, but I think it illustrates the balance of cost vs benefit well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
you suggested 0.01% for 10,000 feedings a year? There would then be a 63% of an incident occuring in any given year. Over 10 years (100,000 feedings), it goes up to over 99.99%.
No, I suggested 10 examples of live feeding accidents on this thread against my 100,000 live feedings over the course of the last 10 years.
That would be a .01% within all of the live feedings discussed in this thread. A little bit different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhw
Purely a hypothetical example, but I think it illustrates the balance of cost vs benefit well.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
-adam
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Carson helped me find that thread I mentioned before but couldn't find. Here it is.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/index.ph...c1fe412ac2963d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
This could go on forever. I think I've said all I need to say on this topic.
Welcome back gen! :D
No offense gen, but your example of a live feeding accident was not exactly what I was talking about .... I advocate live SUPERVISED feeding.
Here's what the owner had to say about his/her supervision of thier animal:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron
I'll definately watch him more closely! I usually do, we were just running late on a movie.
"Running late on a movie"? What are most movies 90 mins? 2 hours? And that's if you assume the "movie" was seen at home on television or DVD, if the "movie" was in the theatre, the timeframe could have been much longer. Not really my idea of responsible ownership if you ask me. Not to mention the fact that the snake was deep in blue and did not have the ability to properly see or detect heat when it was left unsupervised with a live rodent.
Sadly for that poor ball python that bite could have been avoided if the owner cared a little more for their snake and a little less about watching a movie.
This just goes more to my point about the vast majority of feeding accidents happening to careless owners and that the RESPONSIBLE feeding of LIVE is SAFE.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I have a couple of thoughts about your statement above.
1. Sounds like the animal that was bitten was a recent aquisition. A snake that has recently changed homes can remain stressed for a while. (Especially if it came in with a nose rub scar indicating that it's previous owner may not have been top notch when it comes to care). We all know that stressed ball pythons may not be the best feeders to begin with, but I would also contend that a stressed ball python is more likely to mis-strike a rodent or coil improperly if it does eat.
2. Personally I wouldn't feed a ball python in a bathtub. The cold surface coupled with the difficulty of the snakes ventral scales to get a good grip (i'm not even going to ask about the "loose substrate" thing :D ) would certainly make me uncomfortable and stressed if I were a ball python. Also, taking this snake out of the security of it's home and placing it into a large cold cavernous (to a ball python) area with a rodent was certainly not the optimal conditions for feeding. The stress of this situation could very well be the cause of the accident. Under more optimal conditions for your ball python, this may not have occured.
Ball pythons need and love security ... A nice warm dark place that touches them on all sides. If you take them out of that and throw them in the exact opposite, I would imagine that they are not at their best.
-adam
1. I had already said she was a recent acquisition, and that I was feeding her live rats because that was what she had been fed previously. Her previous owner was not ideal, keeping her in an aquarium with a mesh top, on corn cob pellets, providing no humid hide, but she had been fed regularly, handled regularly, and given supplemental heat and a hide. She has never been headshy with me or taken the s-position toward anything but prey and has never hesitated to feed, even the first time I offered her f/t.
2. I wouldn't have fed her in a bathtub if I thought it was safe for her to feed in her enclosure or if she were small enough to feed in any of the rubbermaids I had available. Her two previous feedings had also been in the bathtub, and she'd done just fine. I didn't want to risk injury to her by giving the rat more of an advantage than she had by feeding her in her own enclosure. Happily, she's now ensconced in a suitably-sized Sterilite with belly heat and newspaper substrate, but I changed her home gradually, rather than all at once in order to reduce the stress caused by changes (first adding a hide, second covering most of the top with contact paper, third changing her water dish, fourth adding belly heat, fifth changing her substrate, sixth moving all those things to a new enclosure).
This may not have been optimal feeding conditions for her, but she was not a problem eater and has had a very good health history overall. Further, she had already eaten successfully under identical conditions more than once.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla
This may not have been optimal feeding conditions for her, but she was not a problem eater and has had a very good health history overall. Further, she had already eaten successfully under identical conditions more than once.
I understand that she did have success twice before, but under stessed conditions, mistakes are far more likely to happen no? Think like a ball python for a second (if you can imagine), can you see anything secure and comfortable about a big 'ole cold bathtub? Lack of security = stress.
I am of the belief that the snake could have successfully fed on live over and over again without being bit if she had been given a safe stress free environment to feed in.
Why is it that my 10,000 plus live feedings a year every year is considered to be lucky by some posters on this thread and your 2 successful feedings in the tub prior to the bite is not? I would say that bite was gonna happen sooner or later in those conditions.
-adam
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Welcome back gen! :D
I know, I was SO going to be done with this thread!!! Just wanted to add that link since Carson helped me find it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
No offense gen, but your example of a live feeding accident was not exactly what I was talking about .... I advocate live SUPERVISED feeding.
I kind of find it interesting that you advocate live SUPERVISED feeding, yet if I remember correctly, that's not what you practice. Didn't you say you just drop the mouse in and walk away?
By the way, when I said this could go on forever, I wasn't implying that anyone was "asking me to". I simply meant no matter how long this thread goes on, no one is going to convince you that live feeding isn't safe, and you're not going to convince me that live feeding is safe. This is an agree to disagree situation.
And now I'm really done.
For reals this time!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I know, I was SO going to be done with this thread!!! Just wanted to add that link since Carson helped me find it.
You can't stay away, I'm way too much fun! :lol: :lol: :D 8)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
I kind of find it interesting that you advocate live SUPERVISED feeding, yet if I remember correctly, that's not what you practice. Didn't you say you just drop the mouse in and walk away?
Sure, but I know my snakes very well and they have been conditioned over years and years to eat live. I have conditions set up perfectly for feeding them live food. If I were to take in a new animal, I would definitely sit and watch it for it's live feedings until I felt it was familiar with the process. For keepers with novice and intermediate levels of experience I absolutely reccommend close supervision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
no matter how long this thread goes on, no one is going to convince you that live feeding isn't safe
If there was comelling evidence that showed it to be unsafe I would be the first one to start loading up my freezer. One or two examples of accidents due to poor choices by the owner and some pictures off the internet of snakes chewed up by keepers that left rats in with them for weeks unspervised is not going to convice me. If you want to convince me, show me REAL EVIDENCE that a properly cared for snake being fed a live rodent under supervised, controlled conditions is unsafe.
I don't understand how someone can beleive something to be true "just because". Where is the evidence to back up your statement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
and you're not going to convince me that live feeding is safe.
And why exactly is that? Is it because with your vast experience in keeping ball pythons you can be certain that it's true? Because you know this species so well that it's obvious that feeding them live isn't safe?
I've given my points as to why I know that feeding live is safe over and over, where is your data gen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gen
And now I'm really done.
I hope not, I'd miss ya :D :wink:
-adam
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