Fellow dog owners - what food do you feed?

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Originally Posted by Anya

I think he got all grumpy-pants and took his toys and left...

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He's plotting how to put the moves on you and setting up dinner reservations. Mephs a strategist. :gj:

lol. I can assure you, he's not, ahaha. (disagreeing with the first, not the strategist part. Meph's TOTALLY a strategist.)

There's no point in argueing with someone who doesn't want to change (on either side of things, myself included).

Trying to preach to people about the bible every day taught me that...

See, preaching the bible to people made me apprciate a good 'ol fashioned debate. :P

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

There's no point in argueing with someone who doesn't want to change (on either side of things, myself included).

Trying to preach to people about the bible every day taught me that...

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Corn is not bad food. GMO corn is something I cannot trust.

BUT, that said, dog's teeth show they are designed for prey, not plants. Their teeth are completely different from a bear's (also of the order carnivora but sub-family ursidae instead of canidae).

Dog's digestive system is simpler and shorter than a bear's. But it is longer than a cat's. A cat is an obligate carnivore - hah, we feed kitty kibbles.

Okay, that said... back to corn. A dog cannot process raw corn. It's just not digestible for them. It goes one end and right out the other without much processing - much like grass that the dog eats come out of their poop still grass. But that's not what's in dog food. Dog food takes corn, grinds it into meal powder and cooks it. Highly digestible. Okay.

But, what does that do? First of all, dog's physiology is designed to get its main source of energy and body functions through proteins. It doesn't need carbs because all it gets out of carbs is energy which they get out of proteins. Now, a dog is different from a bear in the number of carb's processing enzymes. Dogs have much less. They have a little more than a cat but they have very little of it. So, dog physiology is not efficient at processing carbs to convert to energy but they do have a little bit of it for when that's the only opportunity available. Dogs are opportunistic feeders. Okay, now back to corn. Corn has high protein but the proteins in corn has a lower biological value than muscle meat. With egg at 100 biological value, muscle meat is at 92, corn is at 54. That, in itself, shows meat proteins are better than corn protein in a dog that has a simpler/shorter digestive tract. But the danger lies in the powdered/cooked form of corn's glycemic index. Corn meal has a high glycemic index. Feeding a lot of this to a dog that has a much lower level of carbs processing enzymes will quickly overload those enzymes putting stress on the pancreas. On the other hand, muscle meat has a glycemic index and carb content of 0.

So, why corn? Because it bumps up the protein rating on the dog food label and it is cheap.

Scientific evidence? Encyclopedia and logical interpolation. Take it for what it is worth.

Raw, I wouldn't go back to kibble at this point, raw is the only thing that's kept my male's allergies under control. Plus their coats are softer, shinier, less poop and they love it so a little hassle and time to make their meals is ok with me. Pre raw was feeding Diamond Naturals and TOTW, not a big fan of Diamond's recalls and problems but they are still miles above most grocery store fare and we've convinced many friends and family off Science Diet to one of those foods, price is the same or less but difference in the pets is pretty clear. Raw costs me considerably less as well but I also feed a lot of free wild game, buy whole animals to butcher ourselves and buy in bulk whenever possible. Also it's a great way to freak out your neighbors.
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My girl gets acana. If I cook meat though, she will get some.

Note: I'm snipping quotes to the relevant parts I'm replying to, so as to keep this post as uncluttered as possible.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

I just wonder where the scientific data is at, that's all.

Dogs are NOT little people, no matter how the media tries to portray them. Dogs are also (contrary to popular belief) not carnivores. The very makeup of their dental arcade proves that; they have molars and premolars in copious numbers. Cats only have one set of molars, and they are vestigial at best. This makes cats carnivores.

The presence of premolars shows that dogs were designed to be omnivores. In the wild, dogs are more like bears actually; they will eat many berries and other plant-based items.

This difference is also seen in the severity of infection from dog vs cat bites. Cats, being carnivores, are more likely to cause severe infection in their bites. Dog bites, on the other hand, are less prone to these deadly septic infections.

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There's more to the herbivore/omnivore/carnivore diet than just teeth. You need to look at the whole package. Teeth are just the beginning of the whole digestive process. There's a whole organ system that go along with them, and for each type of feeder there are variations in the digestive system to deal with the ideal diet for that type of feeder.

Dogs are carnivores. They can be opportunistically omnivorous, but that does not make them true omnivores. They do not have grinding teeth like an herbivore or true omnivore, their teeth are designed for chopping. A dog cannot digest the course plant matter that a true omnivore can. As an opportunistic carnivore, dogs can consume some plant matter. Looking at wild canines closely related to dogs (i.e. wolves, coyotes), those plants are mainly limited to simple, easy to digest parts such as berries and fruits. Those wild canines aren't munching on leaves and grasses (or if they are those leaves and grasses are coming out undigested, I'll collect some scat for you next time I'm in the field if you want proof), they typically aren't digging up roots and tubers, they aren't shredding bark off the trees, all things that omnivores and herbivores can and will do.

So what about a dog that makes it a carnivore? Their whole digestive system. They lack true grinding teeth. They have a large stomach designed to consume as much food as possible, since true carnivores are typically hunters and need to consume large amounts in one meal, because they may have to wait days for their next meal. Dogs also produce a highly acidic stomach acid - something common in true carnivores, but not so much in herbivores and omnivores. Dogs lack a caecum, appendix, chambered stomach, or other digestive features that make it possible to digest plant matter. These organs found in ominvores and herbivores are designed specifically for digesting tough plant material. Chambered stomachs (most often found in omnivores, off the top of my head I can't think of a true omnivore with a chambered stomach, but since I don't know everything I'm not going to say they don't exist right off the bat!) contain microbes that help the animal digest tough plant material. These chambered stomachs also allow the animal the opportunity to digest and "redigest" its meal multiple times in order to get as much nutrients as possible out of it. The caecum (and our vestigial appendix, although some studies actually show the appendix may have some purpose even now) also contains microbes that help digest tough plant material, and helps to absorb the last bit of nutrition from plant material. Dogs also do not (normally) practice copraphagy, as many herbivores and some omnivores do. Copraphagy is another "method" of achieving maximal nutrition from tough plant material, by reingesting and redigesting the meal after it has passed through the digestive system once. A dog's digestive system isn't quite as long as that of a true omnivore, and certainly not nearly as long as that of a true herbivore.

If you want to use the phrases loosely, yes, dogs are omnivores. However, biologically it is not so simple. Within the realm of biology, there are far more divisions than simply herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore. And there are more intricacies that simply what an animal "can" eat that determines how it should be grouped. As stated above, dogs are carnivores but opportunistically omnivore. This ability to eat SOME plant matter does not make them a true omnivore in the sense that a human is. To give another example of how these categories are actually more complicated than they seem... Norway rats, those we feed to our pythons, are classified as granivores, which technically would mean they are herbivores, since grains and seeds are in fact plant material. However we all know that's not the case, they are in fact omnivores despite their grouping into granivores.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

true; however i'll use a simple analogy to convey my point.


In many LEGO sets, there are yellow bricks. I have yellow bricks in my Star Wars ones and in my moon landing one.


If my dog required yellow bricks for nutrition, would it matter if I got them from the moon landing set or from the star wars sets?

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It does matter when it comes to nutrition. Not all nutrients are equally bio-available. Bioavailability is what determines how much of a nutrient is actually utilized by the organism consuming it. A particular food may contain 80% of nutrient A, but if that nutrient is only 20% bioavailable, the animal eating that food is really only going to be able to utilize 1/5th of that 80%. When a nutrient is tied up into a highly undigestible food, then that nutrient essentially has a low bioavailability. This is true across all species and all feeding groups. Cellulose and lignin contain some vital nutrients, but those nutrients are largely unavailable to most organisms because of the digestibility of cellulose and lignin.

For dogs, their carnivorous classification means the most bioavailable nutrients will come from animal sources. While dogs can opportunistically feed on some plant material, the nutrients found in plants are less bioavailable to a dog than those found in animal sources. Also many plants (such as leaves, grasses, stems, bark, etc) can't even be digested by the dog and come out very much the same way they went in. If a food isn't even being digested, then the dog certainly isn't getting any nutrition from that food.

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That being said, I recognize that the good points in corn may be overshadowed by the bad. However, what many people (most of the veterinary field included) do not see is that if they would look at the NUTRITIONAL value of a food over the ingredients, and feed accordingly, even Ol Roy could keep a dog healthy.

I just see/hear too many people putting their dogs on these weirdo health freak diets, and I see the dogs suffering for it later. Oh they don't have a corn allergy, but they have almost every immune disease there is, improperly formed bones due to lack of minerals, lack of eyesight and hearing because of amino acid imbalance, etc.

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This is assume the nutritional value of a manufactured kibble (or even canned) diet has high bioavailability. If those nutrients are not highly bioavailable to the dog, the dog will not be getting full benefit from that food.

There's also another problem with manufactured dog feeds that I haven't yet seen mentioned (or if it has been I've missed it)... We are also assuming scientists know everything there is to know about not only nutrition in general, but also the nutritional requirements of the dog (and not just dogs in general, but all life stages, activity levels, and health levels) and how to provide full nutrition using largely synthetic sources (and let's face it, many of the nutrients in manufactured dog food ARE synthetic because many natural nutrients are destroyed in the cooking process to make kibble in the first place). Many people put full faith in this system and believe it. Personally I don't, and I say that not only as someone who has done a lot of research on my own, but also as someone who is a scientist by trade and training. Just look back at history. At one time carbohydrates, fats, and proteins were the only nutrients known, and scientists thought they knew all there was about nutrition. Turns out they were wrong... then they discovered minerals and vitamins. So then they though they knew it all. Oh wait, they were still wrong. There's also omega-fatty acids. So then they must have known it all. Um, not quite. Antioxidants, micronutrients (including those required in such small amounts they may be almost imperceivable), enzymes, and goodness knows what else. There are constantly new studies on nutrition being done, and some of these studies show we haven't even come close to knowing it all. If we did, people wouldn't even need to eat food, we'd be able to encapsulate our daily required nutrients into a single pill, and be set for the day. Why waste time shopping, cooking, and eating food when we can just take a pill with full nutritional value? Simple answer is because we DON'T know that much yet. Look at how often nutritional studies change (or better yet, how they change depending on who is funding them!)... meat is good, meat is bad, eggs are good, eggs are bad, caffeine is bad, caffeine isn't really that bad, alcohol is bad, but red wine is good, chocolate is bad, but some dark chocolate is good, soy prevents breast cancer, but it also causes breast cancer, etc etc etc etc on and on into infinity. If we scientists really knew all that we proclaim to know... there wouldn't be so much contradiction and doubt.

Now verging from science and research and jumping into the realm of personal opinion... MY personal opinion is that nutrition is best achieved from as natural sources as possible, preferably whole, minimally processed foods. No one is perfect, so none of us are going to eat a perfect diet, nor feed a perfect diet for our pets. The best we can do is decide what we believe to be the best for ourselves and our animals. If we choose to put our faith into imperfect scientists and potentially-corrupt nutritional studies, then so be it, that's our individual choice. But some of us do a little extra research and decide we don't put that much faith into scientists. Instead we choose to feed natural diets that resemble what an animal would actually eat if it were fending for itself in a wild or at least semi-wild state. As long as there's enough personal research to back that choice, I wouldn't call that a "freak diet". It is certainly no more a "freak diet" than choosing to feed kibble, especially if you choose kibble the way most people do, based on commercials and what the pet food company is claiming. There certainly is a WRONG way to feed a whole, minimally processed diet, just as there is a WRONG way to feed a processed manufactured diet. Those animals who were fed the wrong way are the ones who end up suffering for it. Unfortunately those are the ones who stick out in memory because those are the ones you see. If an animal is fed a raw diet and doing very well with no health problems, why would a veterinary be seeing that animal very often, except maybe for a routine check up?

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

and really, many of our domestic breeds have been altered so much they don't want a raw diet

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That's like saying people have been altered so much they don't want to eat fruits and vegetables any more. :P

*Claps*

Seriously, that was an awesome write-up. I agree wholeheartedly.

I do point out with the above that, as you mentioned, there is still a lot we do not know about nutrition. Myself included. The facts are presented beautifully in your write up; I would argue about the omnivore classification, as we (who are omnivores) also lack a chambered stomach and an enlarged cecum (our cecum is actually our appendix). But I won't, as I respect the information as coming from someone who is knowledgeable in the field.

I am leaving the discussion until I have something more meaningful to add; have fun!!

Sorraia, I think I love you!

My dog gets prey-model raw. Prior to that I was feeding a mix of raw and pre-made raw, Nature's Variety Instinct frozen raw diet. Waaaay back when we were doing kibble I fed a mix of Acana and raw. You should be careful if you mix raw and kibble to feed them separately, as they digest very differently. Will it kill them not to? No, but it's easier on their digestive system. I personally did kibble in the morning and some raw chicken at night as the bones help clean their teeth.

I'd also like to show everyone this picture. When we adopted our dog, the humane society gave us a bag of Science Diet since that's what they fed. Does this LOOK healthy?? That was from a couple hours of sitting around, it left a grease puddle under the bag. I threw it away and switched him cold turkey, screw that.
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Damn you raw feeders and your shiny coat dogs, lol, I need to find a decent supplier so I can get my pups off this kibble already.

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Originally Posted by Coleslaw007

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I was not aware that Five Guys started selling dog food. :confusd:

I've fed both Wellness and Blue to our dogs. Both are great foods and that keep our bullies looking great but awful expensive for four dogs lol (although blue wilderness has given my brindle pup the runs, must be the high protein content)

We are now switching to Kirkland lamb recipe for our pups. I've seen some mixed reviews due to recalls but I have some fellow groomer/trainer friends who swear by it. Since I've started mixing it 50/50 with Bear's meals his diarrhea is going away ( no more stinky bully farts!). For being almost a 1/4 of the price of high end brands it is still miles above many foods!

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Originally Posted by Aztec4mia

Damn you raw feeders and your shiny coat dogs, lol, I need to find a decent supplier so I can get my pups off this kibble already.

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I completely agree, I've been considering a raw diet for a while and just have gotten around to doing enough research to feel comfortable preparing meals and finding a supplier.

Did raw for a while and never saw a noticeable difference. The whole food allergy thing is blown out of proportion - a good friend is actually a dog allergy specialist and he has told us that food items represent a very low percentage of canine allergies.

Ouir old staffy bull did fine on kibble (16.5 years when he died). Before that our tibetan mastiff did well on kibble (14 years).

Our current dogs do fine on grain free kibble. Again, did the raw thing, did it for a while and never noticed good or bad changes.

My take is this: dogs are not wolves, they are dogs. Dogs are carnivores, they are pack animals and they are canids - but they are not wolves. Recent genome-wide analyses of dogs and wolves revealed that dogs have more copies of a gene that allows dogs to produce amylase, which is used in the digestion of starches. Wolves have only two copies, domestic dogs have anywhere from four to thirty.

I am not against feeding raw - what I am against is people who feed raw and adopt superior attitudes because they do it.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Did raw for a while and never saw a noticeable difference. The whole food allergy thing is blown out of proportion - a good friend is actually a dog allergy specialist and he has told us that food items represent a very low percentage of canine allergies.

Ouir old staffy bull did fine on kibble (16.5 years when he died). Before that our tibetan mastiff did well on kibble (14 years).

Our current dogs do fine on grain free kibble. Again, did the raw thing, did it for a while and never noticed good or bad changes.

My take is this: dogs are not wolves, they are dogs. Dogs are carnivores, they are pack animals and they are canids - but they are not wolves. Recent genome-wide analyses of dogs and wolves revealed that dogs have more copies of a gene that allows dogs to produce amylase, which is used in the digestion of starches. Wolves have only two copies, domestic dogs have anywhere from four to thirty.

I am not against feeding raw - what I am against is people who feed raw and adopt superior attitudes because they do it.

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On that amylase thing - the presence of more genes in the dog that produces amylase does not mean the dogs are efficient carb consumers. It just means they are better than wolves at it.

Yes, environmental allergies are a lot more common than food allergies. But I have 2 English Bulldogs. Food allergies are very prominent in English Bulldogs as well as environmental allergies. Yeast blooms are also common. Tons of EB owners feed kibble. But, in the EB group I belong to, you will see quite clearly how EBs on low quality kibble suffer. But even high quality kibble doesn't just work. You have to jump around different kibble formulations to find one that would work for the dog. I just got tired of that crap so I went all raw.

Now, this is very anecdotal, but one of my EBs is allergic to chicken. Or so I thought. We went through rounds of kibble formulations on an elimination process to find one that works for him and every single kibble we tried that had chicken in it fails. Oh, and about that grain-free thing... that doesn't quite work out either. I thought, grain-free=low carb. Not so. Potatoes are high carbs too. What we did find is low protein = high carb, so we went with formula that has carbs lower than 45% (they don't list that in the bag, by the way - you have to figure it out!). Carbs on my dogs = yeast infection. We finally found Earthborn Holistics Primitive Natural that worked until Earthborn changed the formulation.

So, we went raw. I figured, if I am competent enough to feed my kids, I am competent enough to feed my dogs. My kids go to a holistic pediatrician and holistic pediatricians are very particular about nutrition so I already got quite a good grasp of human nutrition. So I fed my EB raw chicken to try it out and he was just completely fine with it. That threw me off my rocker, I tell ya.

Since I rescued these EBs, I've spent too much money on vet bills. Since I put them on raw, I've only had to take them for their physicals. That's it.

I don't have a superior attitude with raw. It is not easy to feed dogs raw. Lots of research has to be put in it and you have to really know your dog very very well because you have to tweak the diet depending on your dog's response to it. So you also have to read and read and read all about nutrition.

But what having EBs did teach me... I feel so much better about my decision to take our kids to a holistic pediatrician (yes, she is an MD) even if she did not take health insurance. My sister who is a nurse accused me of child abuse when I did that because she did not prescribe antibiotics for my kid's ear infection. Instead she gave me willow/garlic ear drops and a meal plan!

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

I do point out with the above that, as you mentioned, there is still a lot we do not know about nutrition. Myself included. The facts are presented beautifully in your write up; I would argue about the omnivore classification, as we (who are omnivores) also lack a chambered stomach and an enlarged cecum (our cecum is actually our appendix). But I won't, as I respect the information as coming from someone who is knowledgeable in the field.

I am leaving the discussion until I have something more meaningful to add; have fun!!

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Note: I'm not arguing... I just love a good discussion, and this is one subject I find fascinating. ;)

Yes we don't have a chambered stomach (I'm not actually aware of any omnivores that do), and our caecum is not enlarged as it is in say... a rat, but there are other differences to look at. Our stomach isn't as large as a carnivore or even some other omnivores... but in dogs it is larger and capable of holding large meals. To meet metabolic needs, we are best suited for eating small meals throughout the day (similar to an herbivore who must also eat often, but different in that herbivores tend to eat on a fairly constant basis). But this differs from a carnivore (and dogs) in that a carnivore can get away with eating one large meal and subsisting off that for a few days. Our entire digestive system is a little longer than that of a dog (proportionately speaking), because plant matter (which as omnivores we eat more of than carnivores) takes longer to digest. We've got a few more digestive enzymes than a dog that helps us to digest plant matter. I'd have to look it up to be sure, but we might possibly even have more gut microbes than a dog too (which also help us to digest plant material).

Again, dogs aren't strict, obligate carnivores as felines are. But they aren't truly omnivorous either, like bears, raccoons, pigs, or humans. Just for curiosities sake, I pulled up pictures of skulls just to compare dentition (although again, dentition is only one small piece of the overall picture), unfortunately having to rely on the Internet since all of my skulls are packed away except for the cat skull sitting on my desk... There are striking differences between different species and eating habits. These differences in dentition show not only the differences between carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores, but also the differences in specific fashions in eating. Cats have greatly reduced molars, and very sharp premolars, almost no flat surfaces at all. Dogs also have many sharp points, but their molars are a bit larger than that of a cat's, and their premolars do have some flatter (though not truly flat) surfaces. This shows the differences in eating habits: Cats tend to eat more meat and organ, and swallow bones almost whole, they shear and shred their food, they don't grind it. Dogs on the other hand eat meat and organ, but they'll also chew on larger bones to pull off the last bits of meat. They'll eat some plant matter. They don't grind food either, but they crush as well as shear and shred. Bone chewing uses premolars, not canines and incisors (any raw feeder that offers bone will see this, it's kind of fascinating to watch really). Bear on the other hand... they have larger and flatter molars. Even polar bears (who are pretty much purely carnivorous) have some flatter surfaces on their molars. This shows an ability to actually grind food, not just crush, shear, and shred. And actually, pigs and bears aren't doing nearly as much shredding and shearing as a dog or cat. Same thing seen in the dentition of a pig, and even a raccoon (although to a lesser extent in a raccoon... they tend to be a little more carnivorous, and when they do eat plant matter they are generally consuming softer plant parts, such as fruits).

Now looking at different canine skulls, you see differences too. Wolves are more carnivorous than coyotes, where a dog's dietary habits tend more toward that of a coyote. Foxes on the other hand, are more omnivorous than any of those. When you examine the dentition of wolves, coyotes, dogs, and foxes, dogs and coyotes are most similar to each other, while also resembling wolves, while foxes are the least similar. Proportionately speaking, the molars on a fox are actually a little bit larger than that on a dog (especially the last molar), and appear just a little bit flatter.

It's just all very interesting. Posting this for the sake of anyone interested. :)

Canine skulls:
http://www.sdnhm.org/archive/researc.../nwcanids.html
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Redfox/redfox.htm
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Greenland/greenland.htm

Bear skulls:
http://www.grizzlybay.org/LearnMore/...ybearteeth.htm
http://www.skullsunlimited.com/recor...nt.php?id=3452

Pig skulls:
http://anthropology.net/2007/09/04/a...ory/pig-skull/
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/pigdom.htm

Raccoon skulls:
http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-pho...coon-skull.php
http://cyborgsuzystock.deviantart.co...skull-35331866

I don't have cats as I'm allergic to them. But, I'm always wondering how cats survive off kibble?

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Originally Posted by missriss2012

Hello fellow dog owners! As the time for bringing home my puppy draws near I've been researching what food to feed my corgi puppy.

What do you feed?

Surely I'm not the only one who is wanting to feed the highest quality food possible. :)


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OK I hope you have found your answer among the 12 pages LOL

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't have a superior attitude with raw. It is not easy to feed dogs raw. Lots of research has to be put in it and you have to really know your dog very very well because you have to tweak the diet depending on your dog's response to it. So you also have to read and read and read all about nutrition.

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This a thousand and a million times more.

My older dog is a pointer/am staff mix. She's very high energy (as is typical of those breeds!), and while on kibble (even high quality kibble using real meat instead of by-products and meals) she did alright, but she wasn't exactly thriving. She smelled, that yeasty smell (though never actually diagnosed with a yeast infection). She had bad gas all the time. Her coat wasn't bad, but it wasn't great either. She had dandruff, and it was hard to keep weight on her (even when feeding double or more than what she is supposed to be getting, according the directions on the kibble bag!). I tried different foods (don't remember all the brands, this was years ago). She did better on canned, but that was just too expensive. My cats were already on raw, so I decided to switch her. Took a little bit of tweaking to find exactly what works for her... but now that I know, she's in great shape! No more yeasty smell, no more dandruff, coat and skin in great condition, no more gas (unless she gets fattier meats... like lamb, and even pork, too much beef doesn't agree with her either), and she holds her weight well now (no more bones sticking out every where and people accusing me of starving her!). I do have to feed her more in winter than in summer, because she's very lean and doesn't have an undercoat to keep her warm (thus she ends up burning more calories in winter to keep warm, even in our mild So Cal winters!), but that's no big deal. And like I already mentioned, there are some meats I can't give her (though organs from those same animals seem to be alright) or have to limit. The bulk of her diet is composed of poultry. It took a lot of research, and it took some trial and error to find out what works, but she's doing great. She's approaching 7 years old, and her only health problem is arthritis (vet says she has a genetic predisposition for it, nothing to do with diet or lifestyle). Her only supplement is glucosamine for the arthritis, and you wouldn't even know she has arthritis (this poor arthritic dog runs and leaps like a puppy). Otherwise... great condition! She gets a yearly physical, with bloodwork, and every time she gets rave reviews about what great condition she's in.

The true "miracle" story is with my cats. My younger female (who loved switching to raw) didn't really show any difference in health between her manufactured diet and raw (except her breath doesn't smell as bad on raw). My male cat (who was the hardest to switch, even though he had to fend for himself for a period of his life!) showed improvement in overall condition... primarily his coat when from dull, discolored, and harsh, to soft, luxurious, and vibrant (sounds like a shampoo commercial!). My senior cat at the time (RIP) was the one who showed the most improvement. She was about 11 or 12 years old at the time I switched (and ironically the easiest of the three, despite having lived on kibble her entire life!), and looked at least 3 or 4 years older than she really was. She had cataracts, was arthritic, stopped jumping years ago, had a harsh brittle coat, was overweight, and though she seemed happy enough, she didn't have any pep in her walk. Switched her over and within the first 6 months she lost weight (to an ideal weight), her coat regained its condition, her cataracts cleared (still there, but not as obvious as before), and her arthritis improved. There was one day in particular when I KNEW this was the right diet for her: She JUMPED 3 feet from the bed to the window sill!!! For a cat who had not jumped for years, and pulled herself up on to the bed instead of jumping, that was amazing! The vets and vet techs could no longer guess her age. One time I took her in for a routine check-up, and asked the technician how old she though this cat was. Technician said she couldn't be over 12 years old, and nearly fell to the floor when I said this cat was actually 16 years old. She lived 6, almost 7, years on raw before she had to be put to sleep. The couple of years of her life she experienced renal failure, but never showed the classic symptoms of it (vomiting, loss of appetite, weight loss, etc). The only way we even knew she had renal failure was because the bloodwork showed it. When that happened, I did some more research, altered her diet a bit, and she lived happily until it was finally her time to go.

Definitely not an easy diet. I DO think it is the best, and most appropriate diet for dogs and cats (in fact, I think whole food, minimally processed, is the best and most appropriate diet for ANY animal, actual food choices depending on the species, of course). I don't see that as a superior attitude. It's an opinion, one I like to believe is based on fact, but others are free to disagree. I keep a few cans of canned food on hand for emergencies (if the big earthquake hits and I lose power, or another disaster such as wildfire forces me to evacuate, I'm not going to be able to provide a raw diet, at least not easily), either using it or donating it before it expires, and purchasing more to replace it. If I need to go out of town and get a house sitter, I will provide canned food for their convenience. But otherwise, my animals are on raw. That's the way I prefer it, and that's the way my animals are thriving.

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't have cats as I'm allergic to them. But, I'm always wondering how cats survive off kibble?

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Cats survive on kibble, some well into old age, but not nearly as well as they survive on canned or raw. Based on the research I've done (and the research I've seen others do), if cats are going to be fed a manufactured diet, it should be canned not raw. That canned diet should also be meat and organ, not grains, not starches, and no plant material (which is very hard to find... apparently cats in the wild are eating blueberries, potatoes, and carrots! :rolleyes: ). A raw diet is, in my honest opinion, the best diet for a cat, hands down. That of course assuming it is a PROPER raw diet. (As we all know... hamburger isn't going to cut it!)

Darn! Sorraia beat me to it! I was going to say and post similar pictures of the same animals. Good job!:thumbup:

I like certain kibbles and raw. I feed a mix of commercial raw and kibble to my dogs, but I personally think raw is the 'best'. If someone is going to feed kibble, I always suggest the ones I listed on the first page. Yes there are some fruit and vegetables found in some of them, but they are in very little quantities. Not to mention they lack potatoes, grains, and corn fillers and the bulk of those diets are meat and meat proteins. I am against feeding low quality kibble that has more fillers than meat to where it would be more appropriate for a rodent diet than a dog..... (I.E. science diet where it had a single meat source and everything else being rice, grains, corn, etc)

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Originally Posted by anatess

I don't have cats as I'm allergic to them. But, I'm always wondering how cats survive off kibble?

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There is enough meat proteins to survive. However, its still not very good for them since they're obligate carnivores.

Depending on the type of kibble. When fed an average or low quality kibble many do develop insulin issues and diabetes. Grain, corn, and other plant material used as binders in the kibble are metabolized as sugars. They get too much sugar and it actually compromises the pancreas into producing excess insulin. If you have too much insulin, the blood glucose levels go down.:cens0r: This is when hypoglycemia occurs.

This is why Insulinoma is one of the most common ailments in domesticated ferrets and diabetes in cats. Ferrets are very similar to cats where they are both obligate carnivores. Ferrets can still get Insulinoma even when fed a quality kibble. My current ferrets are on raw, but I've seen what kibble can do to ferrets first hand. The violent seizures they experience from low blood sugar drops are not a pleasant sight. Its a rather sad helpless feeling watching a pet go through a fit.

When switched to raw, my ferrets transformed. It was crazy! I didn't expect them to change that much, but they did. Less odor, smaller poo, ate less due to getting more viable nutrients in smaller amounts or raw compared to kibble where they basically had to eat constantly to get a similar amount of nutrition. They went from having rough brittle coats to beautiful shiny and silky coats. They have more energy. More muscle mass and less fat.

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I feed my puppy Wellness for puppies. I do plan on switching him over to raw when I get my own place and my own freezer! (so early next year :P )

A lot to learn in this thread!

About digestibility of meat...

My dog is a 50-lb English Bulldog.
http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2a2c32a4.jpg

He gets about 1.5lbs of prey a day and eats once a day - random times because I don't follow a routine feeding schedule (on purpose). He poops once a day, sometimes once every 2 days. And this is the size of his poop:

http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps2412bf76.jpg

That poop tells me he ate beef hearts for his last meal. The pork and fish and rabbit and chicken are lighter color. If he's getting too much bone it turns white so I let off the bone. If it turns black he had too much organs. The poop dries up and crumbles if you leave it (I tested it so I let it stay for 3 days before I couldn't stand it anymore). It's perfect for if you use one of those doggy dooley things. I use a home-made version of it. It doesn't stink as much as kibble poop either.

Yeah yeah... I derailed the thread from food to poop. LOL.

I see you guys are talking about raw diets, have any of you heard about Stella & Chewy's raw frozen and freeze dried products? I like the freeze dried because you can reconstitute it with water, and it doesn't expand. A local vet looked at it under his microscope and couldn't find any dangerous stuff in it. (I'm great with sciency words, aren't I?)

Also to contribute to the thread I feed Nutri-Source grain free heartland select (buffalo).

Here's some food stats for their chicken formula: http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nu...cts/gf_chicken

I like it because it has pro and pre-biotics for digestion, omega 3 and 6 fatty acids, and added glucosamine. Plus I get a free 15lb bag once a month as a perk for where I work.

I'm sure there are tons of good ways to feed your dog, but I've gotta say with the TOTW, the ingredient list makes me hungry. I mean the stuff is made with purified water, and roasted quail, pheasant, duck etc.

The only veggies I think are some form of Chelated tomatoes? Or something along those lines...


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Originally Posted by catzeye21138

I see you guys are talking about raw diets, have any of you heard about Stella & Chewy's raw frozen and freeze dried products? I like the freeze dried because you can reconstitute it with water, and it doesn't expand. A local vet looked at it under his microscope and couldn't find any dangerous stuff in it.

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My dogs get the freeze dried Stella & Chewys too. They go nuts for it.


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Science diet is a clinically proven good dog food. Don't buy in to blue buffalos gimmicks. Their advertisement for hollistic means nothing at all. They are a mid grade food charging you a lot of money. Stick with your purina ones or eukanubas before any food that advertises natural or hollistic. I swear by science diet, but all dogs are different! (Just please stay away from raw diets!)

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

This also shows dogs are in fact carnivores....

EDIT: (scientific evidence)

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Dogs are NOT carnivores.

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*sigh* m(___)m


On another note. Some shameless advertisement for the old Raw/Whole Prey Diet Appreciation Thread. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...aphic-warning*

Late to the party, but I feed my dog Orijen Adult. We would absolutely feed raw but unfortunately lack the storage space for it. He does well on Orijen, though.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

On another note. Some shameless advertisement for the old Raw/Whole Prey Diet Appreciation Thread. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?194468-Raw-Whole-Prey-Diet-Appreciation-Thread!-*graphic-warning*

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Great thread, loved the pictures!! Those are some of the best looking ferrets I've seen, and it looks like they're enjoying themselves :)

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Originally Posted by Jackie

Dogs are NOT carnivores.

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Did you read the link or just pull this answer out of your ass like where you pulled your first response from?

Notice how purina, eukanuba and nothing hills are on the Best Dog Food list?
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-d...dry-dog-foods/

You can feed your dog whatever you want, im not trying to tell you what to feed. But do NOT tell other people blue buffalo is no good and raw diets are bad. That just makes you look like a fool.

Seriously did you even read the thread? Look at pookies dogs who are all on raw diets. I've seen and played with them. They are by far some of the most solid and healthy looking dogs i've ever met. Very muscular and lean, soft smooth coat, and healthy looking teeth. So yea, why should she stop feeding raw? What type of kibbles do wolves eat?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Did you read the link or just pull this answer out of your ass like where you pulled your first response from?

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Or how much of it are they regurgitating from someone else without doing their own research.

Not everyone on the internet is right, and some vets are very bad and say whatever comes to mind.

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GUYS!!! SCIENCE DIET IS GOING TO MAKE KIBBLES FOR SNAKES!!! DIDN'T YOU KNOW???

wait... I was having a nightmare... I'm awake now. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by anatess

GUYS!!! SCIENCE DIET IS GOING TO MAKE KIBBLES FOR SNAKES!!! DIDN'T YOU KNOW???

wait... I was having a nightmare... I'm awake now. Carry on.

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Well ball pythons aren't carnivores so that would work!

Guys, "Jackie" just joined yesterday and has 2 posts total, me thinks we have a troll here.

Meph, I think less of you for 'thanking' Jackie's post.

Sorry you feel that way Anya

I'm just glad to see another voice of reason here on the thread

Awww... trouble in paradise?

Wow, "voice of reason" LMAO.

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine...res-omnivores/

quick google search pulled that up.
The key though, if you actually end up reading it, is that dogs have evolved to SURVIVE on a diet including other things besides meat. Not live, not thrive, not do well but survive. You could feed a dog table scraps it's whole life, and it would get a couple years worth of life. Not a good life, mind you, but it would survive.

They're carnivores by the way.

Wow you guys just love to attack people don't you? Jackie literally just joined and she's already getting bashed. She was just giving her opinion on the subject as Everyone else has. Everyone else has said do this and don't do that so don't reprimand her for doing the same exact thing. It's not like she's not educated on the matter, she's a veterinary assistant so maybe she knows a thing or two. Maybe she's wrong and maybe she is right but that doesn't give any of your the authority to attack a new member. No one who has posted has the 100% correct answer. Everyone is giving their opinion and what they have experienced and researched so the op will have to go through all of these post and figure out what they want to do with their new puppy. I love all of you guys and think all of you are wonderful people but I just don't like seeing people be mean to others especially when they are brand new to forum. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day and an even better season!!


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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Well ball pythons aren't carnivores so that would work!

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Why is there no laugh button? :taz:

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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

Wow you guys just love to attack people don't you? Jackie literally just joined and she's already getting bashed. She was just giving her opinion on the subject as Everyone else has. Everyone else has said do this and don't do that so don't reprimand her for doing the same exact thing. It's not like she's not educated on the matter, she's a veterinary assistant so maybe she knows a thing or two. Maybe she's wrong and maybe she is right but that doesn't give any of your the authority to attack a new member. No one who has posted has the 100% correct answer. Everyone is giving their opinion and what they have experienced and researched so the op will have to go through all of these post and figure out what they want to do with their new puppy. I love all of you guys and think all of you are wonderful people but I just don't like seeing people be mean to others especially when they are brand new to forum. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day and an even better season!!


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I don't see bashing going on. Or being mean. Just because we disagree on what someone says doesn't mean that we are bashing.

When somebody says something like this:

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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

Just please stay away from raw diets!

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She needs to be put in her place. Especially if she is a vet tech. Because any person who attends vet school should know that dogs did not evolve to what they are today because of cooked food or commercially packaged kibbles.

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Originally Posted by anatess

She needs to be put in her place. Especially if she is a vet tech. Because any person who attends vet school should know that dogs did not evolve to what they are today because of cooked food or commercially packaged kibbles.

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Jackie, as a fellow Veterinary Professional, I would advise you to stay out of this argument. People have their own views, and if they would like to stay with them we can do nothing to force them. It is a sad fact that people would rather go against the advice of knowledgeable people because they are "part of the establishment", etc. it will be pointless to force them to change.

Im totally with you, but you can't win this argument...Ive tried and failed many times

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Jackie, as a fellow Veterinary Professional, I would advise you to stay out of this argument. People have their own views, and if they would like to stay with them we can do nothing to force them. It is a sad fact that people would rather go against the advice of knowledgeable people because they are "part of the establishment", etc. it will be pointless to force them to change.

Im totally with you, but you can't win this argument...Ive tried and failed many times

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You're in school. You're not licensed, which basically means you're no different than the rest of us. You can't be a professional when you aren't one at all, I'm sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

It's not like she's not educated on the matter, she's a veterinary assistant so maybe she knows a thing or two.


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No, she's *not* educated on the matter. Vet-tech does NOT equal dog nutritionist.

Meph have you ever seen and played with a dog in person thats on a proper raw diet? Like i said, i visited pookies dogs in person, i've never seen a dog on purina or kibbles as solid and healthy as them.

Heck, I've seen what a decent, grain-free kibble does for a cat. I had a cat extremely allergic to grain...switched him over and not only did his allergies clear up, he positively GLOWED and thrived after just a few short weeks. It was an amazing transformation. I was a believer, lol.

Well I'm going to politely remove myself from this conversation/debate/argument or whatever you would like to call this. I just jumped back in to try and defend a new member. I hope everyone has a wonderful day :)


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