News: 2 die in rock python attack

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Yeah, that's the only reason I agreed, it's better to keep ones oppinions out of the papers and medias hands. Which is why I will only be giving them facts about giants and living with giants, and information on attack histories if they ask specificaly. But I'm fairly certain the topic of the actual deaths will, and should, be avoided.

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Choose your words very wisely and be wary of the power of editing. Remember they can cut and snip, and they are good at it. The media has an agenda today and it is not herp friendly. Best of luck.

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

Our hopes and futures rest on you

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It's not just him. It's all of us. We all have a responsibility to watch out and defend one-another if we hope to keep this hobby alive by educating as many people as possible. Events like this, unfortunately, are a huge setback, like a fire in a forest restoration project. However, we don't give up. We clean up and move on.
For example, on the 11th of August, I'm still taking Boots the Magic Ball Python to a child's birthday party. Hopefully, I'll get to motivate the next generation of reptile keepers. More members, and we have a stronger community. I just hope those kids grow up faster. lol

So, I know this isn't an "official" media outfit, but I there some way that we as a community (or the owners/admin) could put out an official statement on the matter, or something??

Im sure that USARK and other offical groups probably have, but if all us "independent" groups say something, it couldn't hurt...

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

For those of you with facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Urban...02915186391965

For those without:

"Update: The official word from RCMP according to Indian River Reptile Zoo curator Bry Loyst, is that teeth marks have been found on the children and the evening the event occurred they had been at a petting zoo or farm until 10:30pm.

Stay tuned for another quick update show with details later today.

(Photo of actual python from Ocean Reptiles owner Jean Claude's FB)"

-Urban Jungles Radio

If this proves to be true, its a black day for all of us.

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Petting zoo or farm? Until almost two hours after dark? Still smells.:fishslap:

Yeah its all hearsay until there is an official statement. But thats the best most recent news ive seen.

Here is my exact statements in quotes from the interview that happened a lot quicker than expected - maybe so I wouldn't have time to brush up? Anyways I mentioned the facts in regards to the questions. If its misquoted here is the quote for everyone to see and when it releases tomorrow ill try and get a link to the online version. Cheers,

"African Rock Pythons, Python sebae, are typically aggressive in wild caught individuals, or captive bred specimens who receive little to no handling. Not all specimens are like this though, many will calm over time if raised from a young snake with proper care and handling.

African rocks were a fairly common sight in pet stores during the first decade of 2000, but have since become less kept. This is due to the fact that many wild caught imports were still being sold - which were aggressive - and the captive born hatchlings that were being sold were simply growing too large for most keepers who did not realize exactly what they were getting into. In current day - the US has added Python sebae to the injurious wildlife list of the Lacey act, effectively prohibiting it from interstate transportation, in or out. This also forbids the ability for these snakes to be brought into the states (no more wild caught species at least) but still allows direct exportation of animals out of the states to other countries (Germany, Japan, UK, etc). On top of the federal law that is in place, state laws also effect this with new laws going into place making it more difficult on keepers. Texas has a simple permit process which is essentially a registration fee. Ohio requires very strict insurance to be purchased as well as permits. Florida basically forbids them from ownership outside of snakes that were already owned prior to the laws being placed. Thus, pet store appeal has dropped to near nothing with the exception of specialized exotic shops.

African Rocks need large caging, experienced handlers (those who have at least dealt with large constrictors) and large food items. They are not something to be kept by everyone, but they are something that can be kept by a responsible keeper who knows exactly what they are getting into. As with most giant constrictors (Burmese, Reticulated Pythons, and Anacondas) African rocks exhibit a trait known as feeding aggression which essentially is a response for food when a cage is opened. While this aggression usually leaves the snake once it is out of the cage and realizes there is no food being given. It is a dangerous moment for the keeper who initially opens the enclosure. Enclosure for an African rock adult need to usually be custom made or custom ordered through a company who specializes in giant caging. A female will need at least a 6' by 3' floor space in her enclosure (most would argue at least an 8' by 3') and a male would also need at least a 4' by 3' (again, preferably 6' by 3'). These cages do not come cheap and will need to be able to handle a giant constrictor who can push their way through a weak side. Food for an adult will range from 3-8 pound rabbits, or a few adult chickens, or even pigs for some of the larger spectrum females. For safety concern, at least 2 people should also always be present when feeding, handling, cleaning, or in any way simply opening the cage to an adult African rock python.

Again, African rocks from wild caught origin are known for their extremely aggressive behavior. These, much like their captive born counter parts, can and will calm with regular interactions between them and their keeper. A snake that is left in its cage with feeding being the only interaction it receives, will typically stay on the aggressive side. It is up to the keeper to raise a calm snake. Tame, African Rocks are just as docile as Burmese, and Reticulated Pythons. But it does take effort, just like any other giant species."



Cheers,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats good information but I fear their going to hack it and only take the parts where you say aggressive and talk about the bans.....

Good stuff
Looks like you gave them good info

I'm both nervous for and excited to hear the results of the autopsy.

Arnt you??

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Thats good information but I fear their going to hack it and only take the parts where you say aggressive and talk about the bans.....

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in the interview itself I was asked about their aggression more than anything else, then asked about issues with keeping them. It's the media, I could've said "No response" to the attitude questions, and made myself look bad, and then given them an assumption mark. It's lose, lose I'm afraid. We can only do our best to educate.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

in the interview itself I was asked about their aggression more than anything else, then asked about issues with keeping them. It's the media, I could've said "No response" to the attitude questions, and made myself look bad, and then given them an assumption mark. It's lose, lose I'm afraid. We can only do our best to educate.

Cheers

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You did well. I for one am proud of you :gj:

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

You did well. I for one am proud of you :gj:

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^ ditto! I admire you for keeping your cool. I struggle not to get tongue-tied, and I was just teaching 2nd graders about snakes :P Cameras regarding a huge case? I'd be a sweaty, twitching wreck ha ha. You gave great information, I hope ALL of it goes through!

Unfortunately, this is what your interview will probably evolve into.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion portraying a typical bunghole news reporter interviewing reptileexperts

"African Rock Pythons, Python sebae, are typically aggressive in wild caught individuals, or captive bred specimens who receive little to no handling." Said snake expert, Cody Conway.

"African [pythons] were a fairly common sight in pet stores during the first decade of 2000, but have since become less kept. This is due to the fact that many wild caught imports were still being sold - which were aggressive - and the [snakes] that were being sold were simply growing too large for most keepers who did not realize exactly what they were getting into. In current day - the US has added Python sebae to the injurious wildlife list of the Lacey act, effectively prohibiting it from interstate transportation, in or out. This also forbids the ability for these snakes to be brought into the states," he continued. African rock pythons, along with Burmese pythons, are known to be invasive in the state of Florida. Florida citizens became even more worried when fear sparked that hybrids of the two could become larger and more aggressive. "Florida basically forbids them from ownership outside of snakes that were already owned prior to the laws being placed."
Recently, Ohio has passed stricter legislation after a man released exotic tigers, lions, and bears before killing himself.
"Ohio requires very strict insurance to be purchased as well as permits."

"African Rocks need large caging, experienced handlers (those who have at least dealt with large constrictors) and large food items. They are not something to be kept by everyone," said Cody Conway. He went on to state "with most giant constrictors (Burmese, Reticulated Pythons, and Anacondas) African rocks exhibit a trait known as feeding aggression which essentially is a response for food when a cage is opened. It is a dangerous moment for the keeper"
Pythons are also known for their ability to take down large prey items. In the wild, these animals will typically eat small antelope. A Burmese python was found with a deer in its stomach. A photo of a Burmese python that exploded after eating swallowing an alligator has been posted on the internet.
"Food for an adult will range from 3-8 pound rabbits, or a few adult chickens, or even pigs" he went on to say.

Pythons "from wild caught origin are known for their extremely aggressive behavior."
"A snake that is left in its cage with feeding being the only interaction it receives, will typically stay on the aggressive side."

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Who knew being a journalist could be so easy? Expose a few bad facts, make it scary, and then get rich from advertisement revenue.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

in the interview itself I was asked about their aggression more than anything else, then asked about issues with keeping them. It's the media, I could've said "No response" to the attitude questions, and made myself look bad, and then given them an assumption mark. It's lose, lose I'm afraid. We can only do our best to educate.

Cheers

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In no way was I trying to downplay or make it bad what you said, I hope you did not take it that way. I appreciate you for taking your time to try and educate. I was just pointing out what I fear they might do. We can always hope for the best!

Where will the autopsies be released? What site should we be watching?

This is why I don't ever watch the news or read the paper and I stick to Cartoons and Comic books with my kids. 5 and 7 this just made me think of my two boys so I quit reading it after the age.


A whole life was ahead of them and it got robbed from them, my heart goes out to the two boys families.

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Originally Posted by DestinyLynette

Where will the autopsies be released? What site should we be watching?

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They were released and they found bite marks.

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who kept insisting I need to get rid of my snakes before they kill me in my sleep,or eat my dog. Yeah,ok. I found an article that has a picture of the two boys and talks about the "pet store/zoo" that owned the python. It said there was an online petition to shut the store down even before this incident because the animals were not being cared for. I feel for the family of those boys however they died they were way too young.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/05...-new-brunswick

There are laws in Canada restricting exotic pets. You must have a permit to have that kind of snake or any large snake (or a lion or tiger or bear oh my) in the province of NB. The snake is question was not a pet, it was a zoo animal. Why are kids allowed sleeping at a zoo?

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

They were released and they found bite marks.

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Anything else? Crushed bones? Internal bleeding? bruising?

My son turns 5 this week, my heart goes out to the family. That being said I agree with everyones posts, the owner should be the one held responsible, it was due to his improper care that this even happened. :mad:

Unfortunately, no matter what the facts turn out to be, we as reptile keepers will be vilified by the general public in the end. It's yet another example of a single irresponsible keeper doing something that effects all of us. I just watched the uncle of the victims make a statement on CNN, and he said they had been out to a farm with various animals earlier during that day. Combine that with an ill-kept large hungry snake and the smell of prey and the reports sound possibly plausible. But I wonder why someone didn't notice? Especially when the snake supposedly "fell", (as quoted from CNN), from the ceiling vent and then subsequently constricted the children. So many questions.............was the snake feeding? Were there bite wounds on the victims? Was the snake just laying there? I have kept large pythons, and they begin to feed after constriction. If the snake wasn't attempting to feed I wonder about a cover up for a more human-like crime. This is a horrible tragedy whatever the cause, but I find it hard to believe that even a large python could constrict two children at the same time without any noise or commotion, (not saying it couldn't happen, just saying it sounds unlikely). Whatever the truth turns out to be, the knee-jerk reaction will be negative towards ANY type of python and those that keep them.


S

I just don't know about all of this. One kid just hangs out there while the other gets killed? A kid that age is not TOTALLY useless... were they locked in the room or something?

Has anyone ever heard of a constrictor using constriction as a defensive behavior?

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

My son turns 5 this week, my heart goes out to the family. That being said I agree with everyones posts, the owner should be the one held responsible, it was due to his improper care that this even happened. :mad:

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x2 I agree 100% and its people like him who are ruining it for responsible people with children. On the other hand it could have been a mistake with not locking the cage ect.... Regardless its a mistake that's taken the life of two lil dudes that you can never replace. That's something this guy is going to have to live with the rest of his life.

I have OCD when it comes to checking and closing cages sometimes I have to do it 3 or 4 times before I'm happy and can walk away. :O

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

They were released and they found bite marks.

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Says who, I cannot find it anywhere

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Originally Posted by BTennant

x2 I agree 100% and its people like him who are ruining it for responsible people with children. On the other hand it could have been a mistake with not locking the cage ect.... Regardless its a mistake that's taken the life of two lil dudes that you can never replace. That's something this guy is going to have to live with the rest of his life.

I have OCD when it comes to checking and closing cages sometimes I have to do it 3 or 4 times before I'm happy and can walk away. :O

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I go into OCD mode too! I check my locks at least 3 times when I have opened the enclosure and I check the locks evertime I pass the cages.

I've heard so many variations of the story so I'm not going to even bother paying attention with it to be honest. I feel for the families of the two kids that were killed and may god rest their soul, but that's as far as I'm going to get into this discussion.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ed-boys-world/

Well Nat Geo isn't helping

"Two boys found strangled to death by an African rock python in New Brunswick, Canada, on Monday were victims of one of the world's most vicious snakes."

Dang Nat Geo...I thought you were better than this...*facepalm*

The discovery channel did an article too and they aren't helping much either.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pe...ids-130806.htm

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Has anyone ever heard of a constrictor using constriction as a defensive behavior?

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Absolutely, they don't have limbs - they have teeth and coils to secure themselves and will readily use either when frightened. Imagine yourself falling from a large tree, you're going to be flailing around trying to grab anything you can to stop the fall. A snake is going to do the same thing with their given tools - teeth and coils.

Very unfortunate event regardless of what the autopsy reveals. Whether it's found that the snake did indeed kill the boys or not, the blame should(obvious to competent keepers) fall on the man who owned the animal. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the 2 lost boys.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

In no way was I trying to downplay or make it bad what you said, I hope you did not take it that way. I appreciate you for taking your time to try and educate. I was just pointing out what I fear they might do. We can always hope for the best!

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Yes, and it probably will happen that way. And if any questions get sourced back to me, I will happily send them the minutes from the interview in direct quotations, but yes. People will not take the time to track source information. . . sad world. Sad day. And bite marks should be compared with bite marks from known attacks, bite marks could've been post mortem . . .

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Unfortunately, this is what your interview will probably evolve into.



Who knew being a journalist could be so easy? Expose a few bad facts, make it scary, and then get rich from advertisement revenue.

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Yep, it's just about removing facts, using quotes, and making it say what you want it to. Unfortunately, with even nat geo claiming out that this is one of the most vicious snakes in the world, it's not helping the case at all.

I've seen multiple articles stating an autopsy of the snake will show what really happened. Also I found this one saying it was already euthanized.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...l-in-province/

It is just a sad day all around....there will be no winners here. It seems unlikely however that a snake of that size ( they are reporting it at 100lbs) would constrict and then leave behind its "prey" none the less two items. The media has reported the snake being a boa or a burm and now an African rock unfortunately this doesn't help our cause of stopping CatX it will only fuel it. We can only do damage control now..somehow. We as a group have to come together and continue to prove we are responsible owners and if in fact the snake in question did do this...we need to show it was a freak accident.

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Originally Posted by CrystalRose

The discovery channel did an article too and they aren't helping much either.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pe...ids-130806.htm

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Actually I found the article to be relatively benign. They quoted a seemingly-experienced "expert" who raised many of the questions we are raising in this thread. It quoted him saying he found the circumstances of the case to be "unusual", (understatement).


S

I just read the first few lines of that Discovery Channel article and had to stop.

"extensive experience with this type of snake, having help care for one for some time in the past."

'Mommy, mommy, I wanna be Lois Lane!!'
'Ok, let's pay an institution $100,000 to sell you some text books and pass you and then you can be Lois!'
'Look guys, I know how to tell people about things that happen, I went to SCHOOL for it. They taught me RHETORIC!!'
'You're hired!'


What... is... that...?!?!

OK so me and my wife just read an article where the media stated that the children were victims of a snake that went " on a snack attack!!!!" OMG! my take on this.... The guy that found these kids ( the dad ) killed these kids for what ever reason then worked out this elaborate plan to cover it up by some amazing snake escape gone horribly wrong! ) Im not buying that a 100 lb snake falls from the ceiling into the room of 2 sleeping kids ( btw wasnt this a sleep over? when I was a kid and had sleep overs we all slept in the same room in couch cushion and blanket forts. ) very convenient his son was safely in another room. These kids did not wake up before being attacked. noone heard 100 lbs falling through the ceiling? the boys did not scream? snake attacks 2 kids at the same time without a single bite mark? any snake I have ever seen constrict has always bitten first! I fear this is one guy that is going to get away with murder! Yep I said it....call me heartless but my money is on the dad as the culprit. I call it as I see it! However this makes good news and is the perfect way for the governments to introduce more restrictions on our rights. this is the SandyHook of the snake world. No more guns...No more snakes!!!!!!

Urban Jungle Radio did a report about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMXW...quSAX3r4kRv-MQ What are the odds that this will make Canada ban or put more restrictions on large snakes?

Most "professional" zoologist comments I've seen in the news tend towards skepticism that the snake would, (or could), do that, but the sensationalism from the media will be what does the damage. I agree, I can't see how a snake constricts two children with a third child present and no one notices til morning? It very well could be a coverup, but if not it is a very rare and isolated incident. I haven't heard a length on the snake, just that it was "100 lbs". A 15' python that only weighs 100 lbs would be by definition a hungry snake, (a snake that long should be 150lbs +), so if you combine that with prey-smelling children I suppose it's possible, but definitely not plausible! I agree, there very well might be more to the story. Unfortunately all python species will be vilified as a result.

S

Yeah...what if the dad had actually something to do with their deaths and used the snake as a cover up? I guess if we find out the results we'll know.

Please listen to the UJR interview before posting ANY more comments.

There are still a few questions to be answered but as of now, it APPEARS that the very worst has happened.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Do you know anyone that would run a story about a Pomeranian attack?

I originally wrote pitbull attack, but I didn't want to unfairly single out any specific breed.

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Ask and ye shall receive

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/anim...omeranian.html

And no, you never heard of that because it doesn't fit the narrative.

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Originally Posted by Jay2322

first off i want to say that my heart goes out this family and i will be keeping them in my thoughts.

ok...second of all i agree with what all you guys are saying in that the news reporters are doing a lousy job giving all the details on this incident, which is leading people to believe all these wild accusations and basically doing a job of crippling the herp society ....anyway i live a couple hours away from where all of this has happened, and i am to the point where i want to beat people away with a stick because they keep asking me all these questions like "why would you keep such an animal?", "aren't you scared that it might strangle you?", "why would this snake strangle the kids?","can they really get that big?"....etc.. the usually questions but with only more intensity. then the majority of these people have the audacity to tell me that i am wrong and they believe/fallow all the things they are saying on the news like a herd of sheep (i am utterly disappointed). i just wish the news was still about the facts and not about the ratings. but anyway i will keep holding on and continue to educate as many of these people as i can for the greater good of our herp society.

(sorry for the poor writing, i had to type this up fast as im at work)

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Were he not dead, I would fear strangulation by David Carradine more than my snakes.

Sounds like it is confirmed then that it is the snake that killed the kids then??

Correlation does not imply causation. The presence of bite marks is not conclusive enough IMHO to determine if the snake actually did kill the kids.

This article is saying now that "officials" believe he had the snake in the apartment and not in the store downstairs.

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Though reports originally indicated that the snake slithered up from the Reptile Ocean pet store below, officials now believe that the snake was housed in the upstairs apartment.

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http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/08/06/N...2061375832251/

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/snake-t...rcmp-1.1399386

Whoever gets away with this, is either the smartest or the luckiest person ever. And perhaps even a combination of both.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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Originally Posted by KingObeat

Urban Jungle Radio did a report about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMXW...quSAX3r4kRv-MQ What are the odds that this will make Canada ban or put more restrictions on large snakes?

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Oh, god. :(

No.

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Originally Posted by Salamander

Ask and ye shall receive

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/anim...omeranian.html

And no, you never heard of that because it doesn't fit the narrative.

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I am speechless.

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Originally Posted by KingObeat

Urban Jungle Radio did a report about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMXW...quSAX3r4kRv-MQ What are the odds that this will make Canada ban or put more restrictions on large snakes?

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Didnt want to start yelling at my computer....could someone provide a summation of the report so I don't have to get quite as angry about this??

I listened to the first 2 minutes (?) and it did sound like they are attributing the bite marks with the Cause of Death??