odd spider

Guys...please don't sit there and bash on one member for claiming he knows more than you, or has more experience and in the ssame thread turn around and do the exact same thing to someone else. It is not only petty, it makes us all look bad.

Is it so hard to have an intelligent or at least somewhat intelligent debate about something without the pompous remarks?

This is a friendly forum, it is why I came here originally, and why many people who are new come here. They aren't looking to get bashed or patronized for their ideas or thoughts. If you want to tell them why you don't agree with them, or why they may be mistaken, fine. Just do it without the egos.

There is no one member here who knows everything, and to belittle those for having a different idea or opinion is close minded.

I still don't believe it is a spider, but I have learned some things during this discussion and will always be happy to learn more.

Grow up, take a breath, have fun ...and try not to be jerks to one another. Yay!

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Originally Posted by Mrhappytreats4u

gotta love narrow minded people..... FYI as was previously stated the mother was never actually seen... was told she was a reduced pattern normal.... Name a few reduced pattern morphs that could be mistaken for a normal by looking at them and then pair them with the spider gene and see what you come up with......

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I must have missed that part, I didn't know that the mother was never seen.

Any possibility she was an enchi? Enchi's have green eyes and that's really what the side pattern reminds me of. I have also seen them with the "spiderish" pattern.

In fact:

http://paintballreptiles.com/pics/enchi/enchi1.jpg

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi.../enchi/006.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/01/e7u8yjet.jpg

Bad lighting and a cell phone pic which really isn't helping the case right now, but you can sort of get the idea of the side specks I'm talking about.

As you can see, mine is an UGLY enchi, he was given to us by a breeder friend because he needed to make room. Only recently did he start coloring up a bit. So perhaps your snake is an ugly enchi and hasn't quite started getting his adult color. He looks pretty little still in the photos. Not baby sized, but he'll definitely grow a bit more. And really, only in the last shed did mine start getting better colors.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...23179425_n.jpg

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I must have missed that part, I didn't know that the mother was never seen.

Any possibility she was an enchi? Enchi's have green eyes and that's really what the side pattern reminds me of. I have also seen them with the "spiderish" pattern.

In fact:

http://paintballreptiles.com/pics/enchi/enchi1.jpg

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi.../enchi/006.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/01/e7u8yjet.jpg

Bad lighting and a cell phone pic which really isn't helping the case right now, but you can sort of get the idea of the side specks I'm talking about.

As you can see, mine is an UGLY enchi, he was given to us by a breeder friend because he needed to make room. Only recently did he start coloring up a bit. So perhaps your snake is an ugly enchi and hasn't quite started getting his adult color. He looks pretty little still in the photos. Not baby sized, but he'll definitely grow a bit more. And really, only in the last shed did mine start getting better colors.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...23179425_n.jpg

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This is stuff that makes me get my hopes up. :P

I have a normal, with green eyes, odd pattern, Who came from a pastel to a normal breeding. He has white sides, nothing like my spider, but somewhat resembles a yellow belly at the same time.

It's one of those thing you WANT to be genetic and be passed, even if it's just for a cool look! in the end we might argue a lot, but we just want to prove something out ourselves. :)

I find it fun to speculate on what a snake could be, even if they are not my own.

A lot of people get really worked up about it, though. I'm not sure why. Like it has been stated about a hundred times before in this thread, NOBODY will truly know what the snake is until it is proven out. But for me, it's still fun to have a discussion and bounce ideas off each other!

To the OP, is there any chance at all you would be able to get your hands on some photos of the momma snake?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Any possibility she was an enchi? Enchi's have green eyes and that's really what the side pattern reminds me of. I have also seen them with the "spiderish" pattern.



http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/01/e7u8yjet.jpg

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Not sure what's going on here, I haven't read the whole thread. But this is my snake, and he is an enchi, no spider.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Can't pastels have green eyes too? So, it's now a crap bee, from a normal x spider.

I'm crying right now, just dying laughing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

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Normals can have green eyes as well.

I've not commented before now - but there's nothing about that animal that suggests spider to me personally. I hope for the OP's sake I'm wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

There is no one member here who knows everything, and to belittle those for having a different idea or opinion is close minded.

I still don't believe it is a spider, but I have learned some things during this discussion and will always be happy to learn more.

Grow up, take a breath, have fun ...and try not to be jerks to one another. Yay!

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BEST quote in this entire mess of a thread.

Sheesh people...get over the fact that someone else might have a different opinion than you do. No one's life is at stake over whether or not that animal carries the spider gene, but for some reason, this thread gets turned into something ugly. It's ridiculous.

You have an opinion....state it...state WHY you feel that way....and be happy that you have a place to freely do so. If you enjoy your freedom to express your opinion, then you should also be glad that others can do the same as well, even IF they happen to disagree with you. There's absolutely NO reason to get nasty and snarky about it.

I'm actually gunna go against the grain and agree with MLR. My instinct reaction to those first pics was just a crappy spider or maybe a spider combo.
More pics were provided and I could see it a little bit more. I'm not saying that it is or isn't a spider or normal, i'm just throwing my 2 cents in.

Can we see pics of the sire and dam, please?

Questions

1. How does a normal get spider traits unless that normal carry's the spider gene?
2. Ever seen a normal with a mustache, I haven't?

It's a confused little snakie :rofl:

I had one other thought in my head besides spider. What about Jungle Woma/ Woma?

Wow. That was an interesting read! To the OP......my very first initial thought (before reading thru 11 pages of comments) was I bet that snake has another gene at play. I am no expert, and I could be totally wrong and it could totally be a crazy normal as so many others seem to be so sure that it is. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the mother was not a normal....and perhaps some type of morph and you infact have a double gene animal (that would be kind of cool, to post an update thread saying you not only proved out your spider but that it's really a spider x _____).

Now having read thru all the comments and gotten to the last page, I see someone else agrees with that possibility with the enchi spider theory. I don't own any enchi's nor do I know much about enchi combos but the one pic she posted sure looks like the same pattern, head stamp, green eyes, etc. I don't think the color is quite right I would think the sides of the enchi spider would be more yellow/gold than white. But perhaps there is infact another gene at play.

Like Gayle said, if you are just having this snake as a pet it really doesn't matter, it is a truely amazing animal regardless--awesome pattern, great color, etc. But if you are going to breed, I sure would breed that snake and try to prove it out...maybe to a super pastel (to not miss the odds) everything will be pastel....so if you get bees, you'll know.

I think it's a pretty sweet looking snake and if I were you I'd sure dink around with it. There are many snakes that have been mistaken for morphs, just has many people have mistaken morphs for normals. So maybe the momma was a morph and you've got a really cool project to work with. Best of luck!! Update please if you breed!!

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Originally Posted by DooLittle

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/01/e7u8yjet.jpg

Not sure what's going on here, I haven't read the whole thread. But this is my snake, and he is an enchi, no spider.

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Oh, I'm sorry about that! I know it's not an Enchi Spider; I just pulled some photos from Google to demonstrate that some Enchi's can have the sort of Spider look to them, pattern-wise. I see a bit of "webbing" on the snakes I posted, including yours. I hope you don't mind that I used it, if so I can PM a mod and get it taken down!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Can we see pics of the sire and dam, please?

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Nope. OP has never seen the dam, but it was apparently a weird looking Normal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Questions

1. How does a normal get spider traits unless that normal carry's the spider gene?
2. Ever seen a normal with a mustache, I haven't?

It's a confused little snakie :rofl:

1. Easy. Traits can be passed on regardless of weather the actual gene was passed on. I have a normal female who passes a little spot to some of her offspring. If you breed 2 crazy busy pattern Normals together, you're not going to get a super reduced, banded Normal. All snakes inherit traits from their parents.

2. No, but I have seen Enchi's with it, which is why I'm suggesting that!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

I see someone else agrees with that possibility with the enchi spider theory. I don't own any enchi's nor do I know much about enchi combos but the one pic she posted sure looks like the same pattern, head stamp, green eyes, etc. I don't think the color is quite right I would think the sides of the enchi spider would be more yellow/gold than white.

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No no, my theory is NOT that the snake in question is an Enchi Spider, but simply an Enchi INSTEAD of a Spider. The OP stated the Dam was a reduced looking Normal (remember, OP has never seen this snake), so my theory is that it is a POSSIBILITY that the Dam was an Enchi and not a Normal.

The fact that you are seeing a similar pattern, head stamp, and green eyes tells me that I'm not crazy. The color isn't quite right to be an Enchi Spider, you're correct on that, but Enchi is what I was instantly reminded of with regards to the side pattern shown in the original photos. But like I said, just lately my Enchi (who I feel is an ugly Enchi) has just started to color up and get his golds/yellows.

Question......has anyone considered the thought that this could be a spider x woma? :confusd: That perhaps the "reduced normal" female was actually a woma? That would explain, well, pretty much everything. The woma gene could easily have toned down the spider pattern, yet left the green eyes and minimal white sides.

Another good possibility, tikigator!

Isn't spider x woma fatal though? Or am I mistaken about that

I believe you are thinking of spider x spider....I heard that once but I'm not sure if that's a fact or not. EDIT: just looked it up, spider x spider is fine, NERD has done it successfully a bunch. The lethal combo is HGW x HGW is lethal (and Hidden Gene Woma is different than a regular Woma)

See photo of spider x woma....looks pretty darn close to me:

"So the woma gene more or less turns a spider to normal"
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...x-pastel/page2

hm, I guess because of the issue when crossing the "wobblers" I thought spider x woma would be fatal as well. My bad! I've never seen a spider woma before!

That might explain it!

Personally, I see a very reduced banded normal with 'spider-like' traits. But no definite spider.....
The sibling looks like a text book spider, however.

I looked into the woma spider and the hgw spider...the hidden gene woma spider makes the spider look more normal than the woma... I will post pics of the hgw spiders...these are google pics not my own...http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...pscdb59050.jpg http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9a9fcc02.jpg http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps353340b8.jpg woma spider http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...psbf01f2fa.jpg spider cross.....the last two photos are from ddreptiles.com

Well, my point was that an HGW or a Woma could easily be mistaken for a reducted pattern normal, esp to someone who had absolutely no idea and wasn't even questioning the snake's genetics. Obviously without seeing a photo of female/mother we cannot make any ID confirmations, but I think it's safe to say she *could* potentially have been mistaken for a normal, and the father was obviously a spider (due to the sibling spider being verified) so it's safe to say that this mystery snake could indeed have a double gene in play. It sure would be interesting to breed and see what pops out. :rolleyes:

PS for all the people who don't think it's worth breeding "an ugly low quality spider"....FWIW, I think for all the ugly low quality browned out pastels and combos that are constantly being bred, this is one snake that is totally dinker worthy. ;)

I acutally learned about this thread the other day from Interloc as he expressed his confusion about how anyone could think that snake had any spider in it. After looking at the photos he shared with me on facebook from this thread, my response to him was that I thought it very well could be the ugliest/most interesting spider I have ever seen.

I do think it is possible that it carries the spider gene. It could be really low expression, a paradox as mentioned by another member, or maybe the normal female actually did carry some sort of gene that messed up the spider expression. Who knows? I sure don't. Not unless I work with the snake in question or prove it out.

My first reaction: Very odd looking spider
My belief: Likely a spider
Am I 100% that it is a spider: Nope

Until we come up with a method for testing a snake's genetic makeup using DNA, we can't know what mutations are un a snake unless we breed them out. So to say that one person or another is 100% sure what genes an animal has based only on a picture isn't wise, in my humble opinion.

im going to add this, I know the breeder personally and know that snake breeding is his life and he would never sell a normal as a morph...he is very well known in florida and also works closely with Michael cole and greg graziani..that being said if he told me it was a spider I would bet all my snakes it has spider in it and it will produce spiders...not saying its a double morph or it will produce good quality spiders but it will produce spiders...if it turns out to produce crappy spiders I will not breed him again...but I guess we will know in a year even though he isn't my priority to breed next season...me making cinny pinstripe albinos are my main goal next season...so I will prob breed him to a normal just to be safe and not waste a female morph on him..

Look, it's a spider!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/SM4kdgA.jpg

lol



Nah, for real, if you want to breed spiders, at least get one that looks like this boy!!!

http://i.imgur.com/jVRTXFb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/E8rBTmx.jpg

Now you guys have hit on something. I thought as soon as I saw it, spider or normal, it would be cool to breed to an enchi. So, what if it already IS an enchi? Or a woma? I really think you guys are on to something there. I've seen some normal looking enchi's, in fact they aren't hard to find. And womas? You don't see them often, but it would be easy to mistake one for a normal if you didn't know what you were looking for. I had a low expression woma for a while in fact, and the reason I never bred him is because he was so much like a normal.

The more I think about, the more inclined I am to think it's right. I think it is indeed possible this could be a spider woma. The similarities are sure there. Now I really want the OP to breed it, because I'm dying to see what it produces! Is it a boy? If so he's close to breeding size already. If it's a female this is gonna be a long wait, but I think I'm going to subscribe to this thread anyway. In hopes I'll get to see the end of the mystery.

Gale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mrhappytreats4u

im going to add this, I know the breeder personally and know that snake breeding is his life and he would never sell a normal as a morph...he is very well known in florida and also works closely with Michael cole and greg graziani..that being said if he told me it was a spider I would bet all my snakes it has spider in it and it will produce spiders...not saying its a double morph or it will produce good quality spiders but it will produce spiders...if it turns out to produce crappy spiders I will not breed him again...but I guess we will know in a year even though he isn't my priority to breed next season...me making cinny pinstripe albinos are my main goal next season...so I will prob breed him to a normal just to be safe and not waste a female morph on him..

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Dude you're killin' us here! If you know the breeder personally, get us some pics of the Momma snake! Please oh please :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Dude you're killin' us here! If you know the breeder personally, get us some pics of the Momma snake! Please oh please :)

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He noted earlier that momma was sold, and the breeder didn't have any pics of her :( :(

yes its a boy...and I already mentioned a couple times the female was sold before I seen her..the breeder didn't take pics of her because she was just a normal reduced to him and it was just a basic spider x normal breeding...like I said he sold her even before the eggs hatched..

Oh darn it!!! How did I miss that?

Would it be impossible for the breeder to contact the person he sold it too and request pictures?

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

believe me I tried to see her the day I got him...I wanted to see the parents myself to see how this snake came out like it did...I tell you what he weighs 400 grams and I have a normal female that I have been pairing with my het red before I got rid of him due to I decided to go a different path and I never seen them lock so I will thr4ow my spider in there to see what he does...I will keep yall informed of any locks with pics and see how it goes...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Would it be impossible for the breeder to contact the person he sold it too and request pictures?

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

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X2

Also, I thought hidden gene woma was just a "scam" xan someone shed light on :confusd:

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Originally Posted by zeion97

X2

Also, I thought hidden gene woma was just a "scam" xan someone shed light on :confusd:

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Not a scam, but a confusing morph mix-up when first discovered. There were two different snakes that both looked "woma". But the two different womas were throwing different-looking babies. One woma's babies had the reduced pattern characteristic that would be expected, but the other woma was throwing some crazy stuff. So that second woma was believed to be carrying a "hidden gene" that was becoming visible when mixed into combos.

After more breeding, it turns out to be a single gene that is different from the other, "plain" woma gene...but the name "hidden gene woma" stuck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Not a scam, but a confusing morph mix-up when first discovered. There were two different snakes that both looked "woma". But the two different womas were throwing different-looking babies. One woma's babies had the reduced pattern characteristic that would be expected, but the other woma was throwing some crazy stuff. So that second woma was believed to be carrying a "hidden gene" that was becoming visible when mixed into combos.

After more breeding, it turns out to be a single gene that is different from the other, "plain" woma gene...but the name "hidden gene woma" stuck.

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Thank you Judy. :)

Yes woma and hidden gene woma are 2 totally different morphs. Just like axanthic and red axanthic are totally different.

At least he's a male and ready to breed! Good luck OP can someone tell me how to subscribe to this thread? TY!

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Originally Posted by tikigator

At least he's a male and ready to breed! Good luck OP can someone tell me how to subscribe to this thread? TY!

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Anytime you reply to a thread (or start one) you are automatically subscribed to it.

If you ever wish to subscribe to a thread without participating in it, you'll find a link at the top of the thread, near the title that says, "Thread Tools". Click on that, and you'll get a menu that lets you click on an option to subscribe to the thread. :)

I haven't posted here in a while, but I would like to chime in on a couple of things that I believe are very important for clarification...so please bear with me, it's a bit lengthy. :D

My position is not to side with anyone or to tell the OP whether or not the animal in question has the spider gene, though I believe it likely may, but rather to say that it's imperative that we, as ball python breeders, not discount subtle differences we see in our snakes too quickly...especially if we want to capitalize on the genetics that may be at play.

Having produced multiple black head spider combinations this past season, I can say, with certainty, that no one could have predicted how these combos would look when the genes were stacked together. From the start I knew I had something different when these snakes hatched, but I didn't know what exactly they were and neither did anyone else. I shared these snakes, both in person and through pictures, with some of the most recognized breeders here in the U.S. and even they didn't know what these animals were.

It wasn't too long after this that Brant Rustich cracked the code on Ralph's black head spider, thereby confirming that the animals I was holding back were variations of the black head spider combination. Brant & I each had our own research on the project, but it was his attention to minor details that made the difference. This was significant for all those who were invested in the project and for those who wish to get into black heads in the future. It's so bizarre, even now, but it's a testament to the never ending opportunity to learn...we just have to be open to having our previously held beliefs challenged.
I promise you I look at ball pythons differently now than I have in the past and I imagine the OP will as well when this all plays out (whatever happens).

Before moving forward, let me preface this by saying that I think the hidden gene woma project is awesome -with a lot of potential to make extreme combos. Unfortunately, however, there are still assumptions, confusion and, perhaps most important, mislabeled photos that contribute to conflicting information that may result in dead animals and major setbacks in people's projects. I know this isn't what the OP started the thread about, but since it was brought up I did want to address it.

Speaking from personal experience and first hand knowledge of others, the HGW spider combination is lethal. Last season, in a joint project with Tom Harbin, we produced 5 HGW spider combos (pearls) that were all train wrecks. It was horrible and what's even worse is that we weren't the only ones who experienced this.

I won't speak for other breeders here without their consent (though a quick search should take you to other sources on this topic), but those of you who know me, know I'm transparent and how I don't shy away from sharing what's really happening with projects (e.g. desert females). While Tom and I made some fantastic HGW combos, we took a huge hit by breeding our HGWYB male to various spider combo females. We not only wasted valuable females, but we lost a ton of time we can never get back.

I'm sure there are people who will say they've had successful clutches of HGW spider combos, just like there are people still selling desert females to people and claiming they'll reproduce. Sure, it could happen someday -maybe, but why risk it? Again, I'm not saying any of this to take away from the HGW project, but rather to save people time, money, and animals. Tom and I are looking to expand our HGW projects- we just won't be including the spider gene with the HGW ever again.

The more we can share and learn from each other the better it is for everyone.
I wish you all a great season and if I can help in anyway- I'm always more than willing.
John

Ok a little update....I gave him away this year to a friend along with the normal he locked up with a couple times but she was also paired with my lesser...she will be laying in a couple weeks so once eggs are layed and hatched I will post pics if they are anything different than a lesser or or a normal...also I do have some recent pics of him right before I got rid of him that are better quality I will load here shortly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mrhappytreats4u

Ok a little update....I gave him away this year to a friend along with the normal he locked up with a couple times but she was also paired with my lesser...she will be laying in a couple weeks so once eggs are layed and hatched I will post pics if they are anything different than a lesser or or a normal...also I do have some recent pics of him right before I got rid of him that are better quality I will load here shortly

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Thanks for keeping up with this thread. I'd be interested in seeing the outcome...

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4cf9ae0c.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps32b2ed15.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6c3827e2.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2c4b2b0d.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...psced0c4a5.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps00e8f521.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps323939fe.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6bbebfb3.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5c9ec4bd.jpghttp://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0444c709.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mrhappytreats4u

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4cf9ae0c.jpg

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Man...what a cool looking snake...:gj: