Has desert female breeding got anywhere?

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?

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It was likely this post that prompted them to message you.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag. I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.

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I'll probably end up buying a nice combo girl just to keep as a pet at some point, but I'll never attempt to breed her. Maybe a desert pin, those're nice.

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Originally Posted by Dragoon

Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?

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Yes I did and I would guess you did too
Travis

Well,
Johns Woolards Enchi Desert female pushed out 4 slugs today and still has 3 to go....I hope and pray for him she passes the other three and makes it through it...she is also 2000+ g and is kept at lower temps...back to square one....
I know there are larger breeders with a lot of more experience that have to have some idea what to do next....would love to hear it if you are willing to share the same info that John was most kind share....who is a I real stand up guy in my book
Travis
Lair of Dragons

I am hoping John's forwardness will prompt others in the project to come forward with numbers and what they have tried.

Time to put to rest rumors with facts, as John has.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

However, I do sincerely hope that people WILL stop trying to breed the females, soon. They not only slug out, they're heavily prone to egg binding, and they are dying in droves due to these attempts. I think the females should be sold with a non-breeding agreement, the way female pet-quality purebred dogs are. The females should be discouraged from going into a breeding cycle, as it could be a risk to their lives.

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... And this is exactly why I would have to give it an awful lot of thought before investing in a male desert or combo (even if he was the right price).

I worry that a non-breeding clause in a sales agreement would be useless in ball pythons. We already know how much value a piece of paper has to many people (think of all those folks with "Genetics Guarantees" that mean nothing) and basically, all you would be doing is selling the snake with a piece of paper that says, "I don't want you to breed this snake." Sure, you could theoretically sue them for breach of contract if they DID try, but who's really going to do that?

A dog sold without breeding rights cannot have his or her litters registered, and many breeders won't even send over the "pet only" registration papers until they receive proof of spay/neuter. So, for most breeds, there isn't much incentive to breed that dog as the pups won't be registrable. Sure, some HIGHLY dishonest people will still do that, but I think the existence of a registry for most breeds makes it much less common. Ball pythons have no registry, and probably never will.

Additionally, screening of potential buyers can help to weed out those few dishonest people who would try and breed a "not for breeding" animal. In dogs, this screening is of major importance, and once you've found that good home, the dog is likely to stay there for life. (I hope ...) A dog's life expectancy is only ~10-15 years, max. Even if it needs to be re-homed at some point, if you were successful in finding someone honest and responsible, they most likely did get the dog spayed or neutered so it likely won't be breeding in its new home. I am less worried about the person that I sell my theoretical desert female baby to -- since they will have heard from the source that trying to breed their new pet could be fatal -- and a lot more worried about the person that bought it from the person that he sold it to. These are animals with a 30-40+ year lifespan. They are quite likely to change hands at least once, probably multiple times during their life. Somewhere along the line, the message of "Don't breed this! It could kill her!" may get lost, and if the snake winds up with someone who isn't too familiar with morphs, she could get bred without really any intentional dishonesty.

Soo ... Yeah. Believe me, I'm pretty bummed about this, and I have not one penny invested in this morph. I just think some of the combos are outrageous ... And I don't know if I could really work with them in good conscience. :(

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

a lot more worried about the person that bought it from the person that he sold it to. These are animals with a 30-40+ year lifespan. They are quite likely to change hands at least once, probably multiple times during their life. Somewhere along the line, the message of "Don't breed this! It could kill her!" may get lost, and if the snake winds up with someone who isn't too familiar with morphs, she could get bred without really any intentional dishonesty.

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But, the same can be said of normal ball pythons--they're far more likely to wind up in the hands of someone who doesn't know proper ball python care, than a morph would be. Should we refuse to sell them, due to this? I don't see a reason to borrow potential trouble. Once we sell an animal, it's out of our hands, and in the hands of the person who buys it. At that point, it's up to them to behave ethically, and ensure that anyone THEY sell the animal to, knows what they are doing.

The best we can do is try to ensure that we make information available, and promote that information as much as possible, to help reduce the chances of neglect or mishandling. I don't think Desert females are necessarily at higher risk than normal males, though for different reasons. I know it's not enough reason to prevent me from working with the desert gene in the future, if I have the opportunity.
I wonder if a spay procedure could be developed for them?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

But, the same can be said of normal ball pythons--they're far more likely to wind up in the hands of someone who doesn't know proper ball python care, than a morph would be. Should we refuse to sell them, due to this? I don't see a reason to borrow potential trouble. Once we sell an animal, it's out of our hands, and in the hands of the person who buys it. At that point, it's up to them to behave ethically, and ensure that anyone THEY sell the animal to, knows what they are doing.

The best we can do is try to ensure that we make information available, and promote that information as much as possible, to help reduce the chances of neglect or mishandling. I don't think Desert females are necessarily at higher risk than normal males, though for different reasons. I know it's not enough reason to prevent me from working with the desert gene in the future, if I have the opportunity.
I wonder if a spay procedure could be developed for them?

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I am a vet (as of this past Sunday -- yay!!) so spaying before selling them is definitely an option that would be available to me. It would be interesting, too, to see what their reproductive tract looks like on a macroscopic scale, and even to send in some sections for histopath ... Hmm!

I can see your point regarding normal males. That's actually an interesting consideration, and it is definitely something that I often give thought to (the fate of "not for breeding quality" individuals of the various species that I work with).

I think that right now, desert propagation falls into that "ethical grey zone" for me personally, similar to spiders ... Difference being, of course, that I do currently own spiders (and have a clutch in the incubator :rolleyes:), but don't have any deserts.

I'm sad to hear about the 2000g desert that passed away. That's truly a shame. As recently as October 2011 I was given a pretty solid guarantee by Chad of Pro Exotics that my desert combo would breed if I put her on the bottom of my rack where the temperatures were cooler. With the fact that deserts are dying from the breeding process, I feel even more reluctant to breed her if the time came... I wonder if more news will come in the next 1-2 years... either a solid yes or no...

But with respect to eating, my desert combo is a fabulous eater. Granted, she is probably among the weirdest feeders in the world, but since I know her eating quirks, she eats every week for me. She is gaining weight quite solidly.

Well, the bottom is officially falling out on the price of females.

Mike Wilbanks just sold two Tiger (Desert Enchi) females for $500 each, and I saw another ad that was throwing in a female for $100 if you bought a male.

They have no other health problems aside from the breeding issues, though, correct? There wouldn't be a reason not to buy a desert (or desert combo) female if you maybe just liked the look and planned on having it simply as a pet?

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Originally Posted by alittleFREE

They have no other health problems aside from the breeding issues, though, correct? There wouldn't be a reason not to buy a desert (or desert combo) female if you maybe just liked the look and planned on having it simply as a pet?

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As long as you're familiar with the issues surrounding Desert females and their complications with breeding, I see no reason why they wouldn't make fine and beautiful pets.

This might be a stupi question but what about the dessert female combos, are they useless ?

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

This might be a stupi question but what about the dessert female combos, are they useless ?

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I believe this problem affects any female with the Desert gene, combo or not. And it's "Desert"..."dessert" is a tasty treat...

T9 sucks but you get my drift spelling B champ lol

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

T9 sucks but you get my drift spelling B champ lol

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haha...I was usually out in the 2nd or 3rd round...I'm not a grate speller...;)

Are there any other morphs of ball pythons where females don't lay viable eggs?

That question right there had me thinking, What if a Desert isn't what we think it is.
I know its a long shot but what if its a hybrid.
Lets say a Jag carpet x Ball and after a few gens of breeding male carpalls back to female Ball pythons you get a snake that looks like this but has a lethal gene when you finally use a female showing the mutation.
The desert is almost what I would picture a jag x ball mix a few generations down the line bred just to ball python females.

Was just something I have been thinking about.
Any thoughts on it?

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Originally Posted by Crazygecko

Any thoughts on it?

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Interesting hypothesis. A DNA test would show the presence of other genetic material, right?

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Crazygecko

Are there any other morphs of ball pythons where females don't lay viable eggs?

That question right there had me thinking, What if a Desert isn't what we think it is.
I know its a long shot but what if its a hybrid.
Lets say a Jag carpet x Ball and after a few gens of breeding male carpalls back to female Ball pythons you get a snake that looks like this but has a lethal gene when you finally use a female showing the mutation.
The desert is almost what I would picture a jag x ball mix a few generations down the line bred just to ball python females.

Was just something I have been thinking about.
Any thoughts on it?

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You do realise that's the thing that scares people the most about the hybrids?

That 5 generations later you discover you had a hybrid in the original group and that all your hard work has resulted in nothing but a collection of mutts.


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



You do realise that's the thing that scares people the most about the hybrids?

That 5 generations later you discover you had a hybrid in the original group and that all your hard work has resulted in nothing but a collection of mutts.


dr del

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That's exactly what I was sort of hinting at.
The Desert pattern to me is what I would imagine a Jag carpall would look like a few gens down the line. And with the Jag being a somewhat lethal gene I wonder if it could be causing this. That is only if the slim chance these are actually a hybrid.
I have just never heard of any other morph of ball python where females just don't lay viable eggs.
But who knows what is actually going on here, it would be almost impossible to prove.

Well, I started to type that I think that when hybrids are sterile due to mismatched chromosome counts, it's usually both sexes. However, good ol' Wikipedia refutes me by saying that, in fact, of the scattered accounts of mules producing young, all have been female. So, maybe ...

However, if this were more of a "mystery morph," I'd be a bit more inclined towards that hypothesis -- but don't we have pretty good "origin stories" on two separate lines of Desert that are both female-sterile? :confused:

I am curious where did both lines come from? Could they have originated from them same person in Africa?

It's a single gene, not a hybrid. We know this because the offspring do not look like gradations in between both parents--they are either deserts, or they are not. If the females are not deserts, then they are not sterile, even if they had a desert sire.

In hybrids, the offspring will look like a cross between the parent species--they may look more like one than the other. You will often get individuals that look more like one parent, and others that look like the other parent, in the same clutch/litter. Deserts look like ball pythons, and not like anything else.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It's a single gene, not a hybrid.

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Off topic, but I think what Crazy gecko is talking about would be more accurately called an intergrade rather than a hybrid....which though I doubt is a plausible scenario with deserts, but can be a real issue in the future of ball python breeding and careless breeders producing hybrids "just because they can". I think it's entirely possible to breed out the look of a different species while retaining some color/pattern traits...it's been done with corn snakes.

Yes what Robnj said is what I was thinking of. And the normal females throwing viable eggs is what I would expect to happen here. If the jag gene was in the desert that's what I think would be the lethal part so normal looking females would be ok.
And after multiple generations I do believe you could get rid of the carpet look. Let's say the snake is only 10% or less carpet and the rest ball then wouldn't it be possible for it to look more like a ball?

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Originally Posted by Crazygecko

Are there any other morphs of ball pythons where females don't lay viable eggs?

That question right there had me thinking, What if a Desert isn't what we think it is.
I know its a long shot but what if its a hybrid.

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I highly doubt that the desert is a hybrid species. The main evidence to support this idea is the fact that this morph is dominant, so only 50% of the offspring have the genetic traits. 100% of a hybrid's offspring would exhibit characteristics such as these and look similar to the hybrid parent.

However, if it wasn't bred to a similarly genetic specimen (i.e. 50% ball python 50% something else) but to a 100% ball python, it would likely look more like a BP than the original hybrid parent due to the decreased "other species" genetic material.

Also, hybrid species of snakes are NOT actually sterile, and there are a multitude of different "morphs" which are dependent on the amount of genetic material of each species. I don't think its immoral or wrong to do the hybrid thing. Its actually kind of interesting and cool-- however it is important to maintain genetic purity in captive species! So all hybrids should be labeled as such, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by PsychD_Student

I highly doubt that the desert is a hybrid species. The main evidence to support this idea is the fact that this morph is dominant, so only 50% of the offspring have the genetic traits. 100% of a hybrid's offspring would exhibit characteristics such as these and look similar to the hybrid parent.

However, if it wasn't bred to a similarly genetic specimen (i.e. 50% ball python 50% something else) but to a 100% ball python, it would likely look more like a BP than the original hybrid parent due to the decreased "other species" genetic material.

Also, hybrid species of snakes are NOT actually sterile, and there are a multitude of different "morphs" which are dependent on the amount of genetic material of each species. I don't think its immoral or wrong to do the hybrid thing. Its actually kind of interesting and cool-- however it is important to maintain genetic purity in captive species! So all hybrids should be labeled as such, IMHO.

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But what if the hybrid was from a Morph of another species of snake that was dominant? I am not talking about a straight normal ball to a normal carpet but a Jag. That is what I was trying to say.
Jag carpet is a dominant trait so a Hybrid jag carpall would be dominant.
And since the Jag is partialy lethal who knows what could happen and maybe it would make all females lethal or sterile.
Once you start mixing morphs into the Hybrids who knows what would happen to some of these genes. They could be lethal who knows.

[QUOTE=PsychD_Student;1873729]there are a multitude of different "morphs" which are dependent on the amount of genetic material of each species.QUOTE]

There are also morphs that aren't. Check out the youtube vid of the spider carpall. Sick looking snake, but a few gens back into carpets and you wouldnt even be able to tell it was a Ball python co dom morph and it could be passed off as a new carpet morph.
Not saying it would happen but there are some very shady people out there who might not be able to resist the temptation.

Does this mean there's an issue with a female that isn't just desert, say tiger pin? Would it still be infertile as the rumor goes?

As long as the female has Desert in it pretty sure there is a problem until someone proves there isn't.

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Originally Posted by MorphMaster

Does this mean there's an issue with a female that isn't just desert, say tiger pin? Would it still be infertile as the rumor goes?

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I asked this same question on a different thread. From other's experience any female with the desert gene is affected, they are infertile..

I'm gonna try adding calcium to the rats that I feed. Mine and see if it's a vitamin dif problem I mean can't hurt. To try it

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Originally Posted by Rallisonreptiles

I'm gonna try adding calcium to the rats that I feed. Mine and see if it's a vitamin dif problem I mean can't hurt. To try it

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Umm... Yes it can. Your desert female can die. That might not hurt YOU, but I have a feeling that the snake might not be too happy about that..

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Originally Posted by Rallisonreptiles

I'm gonna try adding calcium to the rats that I feed. Mine and see if it's a vitamin dif problem I mean can't hurt. To try it

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Calcium wouldn't be the vitamin it lacks, if they lack any at all. Their prey has a lot of calcium... you know, with the bone and all. A snake of any mutation is built to digest bone. If metabolizing calcium were an issue, I'd think we'd be seeing bone fragments, or in the vey least, white (that isn't urate) in their poo. No, I'd go with something more along the lines of a general multivitamin... but seeing as we don't really know what amounts of which vitamins snakes need, it is probably not the best idea. Especially since vitamins like A and D are fat soluble and can be OD'd on.

For those who are thinking of 'trying' things to get their female deserts to breed:

The risk of death is VERY VERY HIGH. The reports are STILL coming in, one after another, of females dead of egg binding.

It is a miserable death due to necrosis in some cases, though some have died apparently of an embolism after a retained egg caused internal hemorraging.

There is no known vitamin deficiency I am aware of that would cause the combination of sterility and inability to pass the infertile eggs. Are you aware of one? Because if you are not, then your experiment has no basis, and risks the animal's life without justification.

This is the point at which people should, ethically, STOP. There is not going to be a magic bullet or technique that suddenly makes desert females fertile. There is no precedent for one, there absolutely no reason to believe there is one, and there is absolutely no scientific basis for one. The females ARE dying in these attempts. Continuing is heartless and wrong.

You can take this or leave it, but that's my opinion. Desert is a really pretty gene. Stick to breeding only the males.

I'd take it one step further WWP and say to stop breeding them in general when statistically, 1/4 of offspring will be desert females.

I'd put my money on it being a hormonal issue, not a vitamin deficiency and according to people more knowledgable than myself, there are no full hormonal assays available for normal bp's, much less deserts

just wanted to add this...an independent study done by a vet

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...gnostics/page2

Surgery on a desert female!
Someone on a group I'm in on FB posted this.
http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...095#post769095