Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

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Originally Posted by Missy King

I don't know why you wouldn't drink milk past the SELL date, if it is still good. If it's expired, it's not necessarily bad. If it GOES bad throw it it...humans also do not have the ability to fight off bacteria from "bad" food...where as ball pythons can eat food that has been dead for a long time, not refrigerated, and by our standards, spoiled. That is just a fact.

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Just because you type something, doesn't make it a fact. Please cite your sources that ball pythons can safely eat food that has been dead for a long time, that we would define as spoiled. For that matter, you also said that ball pythons scavenge dead food. Can you please cite that source as well?

maybe everyone should write "that is just a fact" at the end of the post to make it a fact.

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

You make an excellent point, but I just wanted to point out that ball pythons are not domesticated.

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Yes, I am aware that ball pythons (as well as every other reptile species) are not domesticated by any means.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food.

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I applaud you! Especially with the ferrets since they're obligate carnivores. I feed mine whole prey as well (adult mice and weanling rats). It's so much more healthier for them than all that commercial corn + 40% protein kibble nonsense....

I see people starting to beat the old "fresh is more nutritious than frozen" drum. Well, like most internet regurge material, it's part true, part false.

It depends on many, many variables, including the span of time between death and freezing and more importantly, which nutrients are being discussed.

Some nutrients are affected, some are minimally affected and some are not affected at all. In fruits and vegetables, the nutrients losses of vitamin C begin immediately after picking the produce item and actually are further lessened by the freezing process.

Now I know some people confuse their apples and oranges, but this is an easy one. Meat is not an apple nor an orange. It is meat, and meat does not lose nutrients through proper quick freezing like produce does and whole prey items lose even less than butchered cuts of meat that have longer processing times and lose juices containing nutrients during butchering.

In fact, meat, fish and poultry barely lose any nutrients at all, as proteins and Vitamins A and D are unaffected by the freezing process. There are losses - that much is true - but they are trivial and not worthy of any concern on the part of the keeper.

The losses incurred in frozen meat mainly take place when the meat is thawed, and juices are exuded containing the soluble proteins, vitamins and minerals. Again, whole items lose a lot less of these soluble proteins as they are leaked mainly into the body cavity. The amount of nutrient loss is dependent on the length of time of aging (time between death and freezing), whether frozen as a carcass or meat cuts, conditions of freezing and speed of thawing; it varies between 1% and 10% of the weight of the meat and is usually about 5% - and that is measured on butchered cuts of meat with longer processing times and inherently greater risk of soluble protein loss.

Bottom line - the loss that occurs during thawing is less than 5% of the nutrient content. Not a cogent reason alone to pick live over f/t.

I feed both. I don't breed rodents any more. 95% of my animals are on f/t but I have some that will only eat live.

Only a dimwit of the highest order would sit in judgment of someone who feeds live prey responsibly.

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Originally Posted by pigfat

I feed live.
1.) I cant get mine to take f/t.
2.) Its easier for me to go by the store and buy mice than having to thaw out frozen rats, warm them up, and dangle them around for my snakes to eat them.
3.) You hear it with nutritionists all the time that frozen foods loose a lot of their nutrients, its probably the same with mice right?


I've been stabbed in the roof of my mouth so many times from chips and what not, but it doesnt scare me away from eating them lol. I also closely supervise feeding time with pliars in hand ready to help. I wait untill the snake is completely done strangling and begins to eat before I put the lid back on.

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Skiploder, as always, provided a very informative post that I think answered this question,
but remember, a nutritionist is someone who can go out and certify themselves and may not be very educated. A registered dietitian is someone who has had at least a bachelors and often masters degree, along with a dietetic internship, and they must get continuing education credits. THIS is the nutrition professional you want to listen to ;) I will be one soon.

I feed live, nothing wrong with it. I think there are some very informative posts already so I will not repeat why I do so.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food.

If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.

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I like the fact you give your ferrets live prey. Not many people do this. But I see one flaw in what you said.
I personally believe no animal can be domesticated. Not only did We humans define this definition, but in part there still animals... they have all the instincts wild animals do. This is my opinion, I know we all have cat dogs and even rats that listen and such BUT!! They can still turn on a dime. Don't tear into me about this, this is my opinion..

I will admit I didn't read the entire thread, but from skimming It send the OP dis regards our opinions. If not I apologize.

I only own five snakes. 4 eat only live And 1 will eat F/T. I am trying to switch them over but they just wont. So I don't see a reason to feed 1 snakes F/T and the other 4 live, so currently they all get live and i try to occasionally slip in a F/T to no avail. This is just the way it works for me. I personally wish mine would eat F/T

Right, what Skiploder said. The nutritional benefit of live over FT is only slight. (However, ball pythons do get vitamin C, and all other nutrients, from their prey--the liver contains the vitamin C). I'm not sure whether B. Barczyk has completed his feeding trials that he introduced on Snakebytes, where he had one group of hatchlings eating prey dusted with a multivitamin, but I am curious about the results of that.
I have no feeling that my animals aren't getting good nutrition eating FT.

Keep in mind that if you feed cats in particular on a whole prey diet, you should NOT use frozen prey for them...or, if you do, you will NEED to add a thiamine supplement. I'm not sure whether that applies to ferrets or dogs.

It's certainly occurred to me that unused FT rodents could become dog snacks, but we don't currently have a dog, lol.

As for domestication...there is a LOT of confusion about what it actually is. We learned a tremendous amount about domestication from the fox farm experiments in Russia, and I would encourage anyone interested in it to look into them.

Essentially, domestication has a wide-ranging influence over an animal's endocrine system, personality, and even appearance. It does not necessarily have any effects on their instincts. Domesticated animals are docile, friendly or neutral towards human beings, and tend to have a variable appearance with many mutations of form, color, and pattern. (The fox farm foxes developed floppy ears, varied tail lengths, piebald coats, and more).

The sole selection process that caused all of these changes was merely selection for animals that did not show a fear or aggression response toward human beings. That's all.

In reptile species where selection for temperament has begun, the domestication process has also begun--corn snakes and leopard geckos are probably furthest along at this point, with relatively little wild blood being introduced (particularly in leopard geckos).
I would imagine that bearded dragons are also well on their way, particularly when one considers that no wild blood can be introduced into their current gene pools in the US and Europe.

All we need to do, to begin the domestication process in ball pythons, is start selecting for temperament, and stop introducing wild-origin snakes to our breeding programs.

I actually feel like it may be the animals who are no longer allowed to be wild caught (Australian animals for those of us here, etc.) who would end up more 'domesticated' if anything.


I agree with Skiploader on the nutrient aspect of meat. While I know this isn't a fair comparison because we humans do eat more than just meat to balance our diet, I don't know many people who are concerned about eating meat that was frozen, most of us get our meat in the store freezers even. I remember someone actually using the orange reference in regards to freezing rodents, to which I wondered, since when are rodents fruit? :O

This has all been a fun and enlightening discussion, even if things tend to get a little heated. It's always good to know as much as we possibly can in order to constantly improve our keeping methods. :)

Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm not sure whether B. Barczyk has completed his feeding trials that he introduced on Snakebytes, where he had one group of hatchlings eating prey dusted with a multivitamin, but I am curious about the results of that.

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http://youtu.be/kyXZN25XOZo about 2 minutes in

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Originally Posted by nikitajane25

Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?

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I think you missed the part about an apple not being made of meat...or maybe it was the part about ball pythons not eating oranges...:confused:

Let the dead horse beating continue...:D

Ok what about fishing? Yes they freeze some but don't they prefer to eat their catch fresh? Or hunters? Don't they eat the meat as fresh as possible. Or farmers? They drink the milk from the cows or eat the eggs straight from the chicken. They kill their own cattle, chickens, pigs, turkeys, ect. And they eat it fresh (like I said yes they freeze some) but why do they do this? From my understanding its because it tastes better, it has more flavor, its fresh!

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Originally Posted by sho220

I think you missed the part about an apple not being made of meat...or maybe it was the part about ball pythons not eating oranges...:confused:

Let the dead horse beating continue...:D

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how many posts do I need to go back to understand where the this conversation came from? Wine tastes better as it ages, do I get to beat on the horse now?

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

how many posts do I need to go back to understand where the this conversation came from? Wine tastes better as it ages, do I get to beat on the horse now?

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All you need to know is that BP's enjoy the taste of fresh produce vice frozen...and they prefer their water with a splash of lemon...

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Originally Posted by nikitajane25

Ok what about fishing?

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With the lack of thumbs, or fingers for that matter, there's no way a BP could operate a fishing reel...so this point is moot...:D

-__- I'm making the point that if we prefer our food fresh why feed our animals something they might not like and isn't natural to them just cause its cheaper or more convenient to us? Don't give them any less then you yourself would prefer.

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Originally Posted by nikitajane25

-__- I'm making the point that if we prefer our food fresh why feed our animals something they might not like and isn't natural to them just cause its cheaper or more convenient to us? Don't give them any less then you yourself would prefer.

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Do ball pythons have taste buds?

If so, what are they used for?

After you've done the research and answered these two questions, ask yourself this:

Does fresh really matter to a ball python? If so, as opposed to what?

Then, will a ball python be able to discern the difference - with it's "palate" - between a live prey item and a f/t one sufficiently heated up?

Once you've done that research, we will then have something interesting to discuss. Until then, we don't.

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Originally Posted by nikitajane25

Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?

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Frozen produce is the next best alternative, and can be better if you are looking to store something for longer. The nutrient content depletion is minimal when you compare it to cooking.

Actually frozen vegetables is better to buy than fresh if you're buying in a store. Frozen is frozen as it's picked, while "fresh" has been picked, stored in boxes, transported to a central location, transported to the store, set out on display and then at whichever point you pick it up and take it home.

As far as whether a snake cares if it's prey was frozen and reheated to sufficiently warm to mimic "blood heat", I doubt it can tell or cares. There's a reason we do the zombie rat dance.... it's because pythons are usually fairly easy to fool.

The debate rages... frozen vs live... and it will continue to be debated ad nauseum with folks on either side who espouse ONLY their way. The rest of us in the middle watch with popcorn and shrug while saying "If it works for you..."

I don't know if ball pythons have taste buds but does that necisarily mean they can't taste? They have other senses, like their amazing sent. When you have a cold can you taste? In my opinion that is a way for them to taste. Obviously they can tell the difference because there are some balls who simply refuse f/t. Now I'm not saying I'm opposed to f/t, I just prefer live because its what's NATURAL to them. But I can argue this either way. I actually convinced my brother to feeding his florida king f/t and he is extremely hard headed and was adiment about sticking to live.

Wolfyhound, as far as your take on frozen vs fresh produce I can argue that all day ad point out everything wrong about your statement but this is a debate on f/t v live prey. (However I am for using produce as an example)

My main point. I am for live for the fact that its more natural. Plain and simple. But I am also for f/t to avoid any physical stress on the animals. In my opinion, I try f/t if they take it great! If not I'm not gunna force it. This is a debate that's been going on for years and will continue for years. :rolleyes:

Based on those results, I am going to begin using a multivitamin powder on all prey offered to my ball pythons, whether live, pk, or ft. A light dusting of vitamin powder isn't terribly expensive, and seems worth it to ensure no minor deficiencies in nutrients will occur. If freezing does destroy some vitamins, replacing them with a bit of dust is simple. With some preliminary evidence that it helps, and the fact that it does no harm...why not?

I'm not sure that ball pythons taste their food, but they most definitely smell it, and anyone who has tried to switch a stubborn animal from live to FT can attest that they do indeed detect a significant difference between Live/PK and FT.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Based on those results, I am going to begin using a multivitamin powder on all prey offered to my ball pythons, whether live, pk, or ft. A light dusting of vitamin powder isn't terribly expensive, and seems worth it to ensure no minor deficiencies in nutrients will occur. If freezing does destroy some vitamins, replacing them with a bit of dust is simple. With some preliminary evidence that it helps, and the fact that it does no harm...why not?

I'm not sure that ball pythons taste their food, but they most definitely smell it, and anyone who has tried to switch a stubborn animal from live to FT can attest that they do indeed detect a significant difference between Live/PK and FT.

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They may.. we'll never know though Because we're not BP's. ;) the truth is whether someone chooses to use live or frozen, that is there choice. We should never try to force someone to change.

I disagree--our not being ball pythons does not mean we cannot observe behavior and make logical inferences. If a ball python willingly accepts PK prey, and refuses heated FT, obviously it detects a difference between them. That is something we know, and we do not have to be ball pythons to know it.

Which they prefer is more subjective. Based on behavior, most ball pythons prefer PK to FT, but some prefer FT to PK. :)

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Keep in mind that if you feed cats in particular on a whole prey diet, you should NOT use frozen prey for them...or, if you do, you will NEED to add a thiamine supplement. I'm not sure whether that applies to ferrets or dogs.

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I find that most people feed fresh or cooked meat to their cats, dogs, and ferrets anyway so hopefully many don't have that problem. I feed my ferrets live prey for the same reasons I feed my snakes live. Also the ferrets enjoy taking down prey and its good enrichment. They always seem so excited or eager when they see a mouse or rat. Like a dog excited for a piece of bacon..... It is possible for ferrets to get a thiamine deficiency, which can lead to paralysis. And since dogs are not obligate carnivores like cats and ferrets, I don't think they need it as bad. However, dogs can get deficiencies as well.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Actually frozen vegetables is better to buy than fresh if you're buying in a store. Frozen is frozen as it's picked, while "fresh" has been picked, stored in boxes, transported to a central location, transported to the store, set out on display and then at whichever point you pick it up and take it home.

As far as whether a snake cares if it's prey was frozen and reheated to sufficiently warm to mimic "blood heat", I doubt it can tell or cares. There's a reason we do the zombie rat dance.... it's because pythons are usually fairly easy to fool.

The debate rages... frozen vs live... and it will continue to be debated ad nauseum with folks on either side who espouse ONLY their way. The rest of us in the middle watch with popcorn and shrug while saying "If it works for you..."

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This is very true. When I say frozen is next best, I of course was onlythinking about fresh picked. I always neglect to remember the quality of the produce on the shelf. Good catch.

Cooking also destroys thiamine, so those who feed fresh but cooked food to their cats (and presumeably, ferrets) should add a thiamine supplement to it after cooking.
Thiamine is added to commercial cat foods.
Some fresh fish is also off limits, as is frozen fish, due to the thiaminase content (enzyme that destroys thiamine).

As has been pointed out, humans DO eat fruit, so we don't have to get all of our nutrients from meat. If we did, we would have to eat some of it fresh and raw, the way the Inuit and Sami peoples did.

I love reading this thread while eating a frozen pizza and my god does it taste good

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Cooking also destroys thiamine, so those who feed fresh but cooked food to their cats (and presumeably, ferrets) should add a thiamine supplement to it after cooking.
Thiamine is added to commercial cat foods.
Some fresh fish is also off limits, as is frozen fish, due to the thiaminase content (enzyme that destroys thiamine).

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I totally agree with you. That's exactly how ferrets get a thiamine deficiency. From fish meal in low quality kibble. I hear eggs do the same.

Good thing I feed live! :banana:

I feed FT to my corn. Cause he was raised that way from the breeder i got em from. He doesnt constrict. Just eats it. Never had a problem.

Now my ball, she doesnt take FT. No matter what. So i feed live. Id rather her eat than her starve. If i could id probally feed Ft. Cause its gonna be hard to find a rat breeder. And its cheaper. But i watch her well, an make sure the mice are healthy so i dont worrie too much about it.

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Originally Posted by Missy King

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

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That is only a fact if you are freezing at proper temperatures, and your average home freezer does not achieve those temperatures. And your insistence that thawing and refreezing can be done as often as one would like is highly misguided...hypothetically speaking, I suppose it can be done, but there is such a microscopic margin for error when it comes to time and temperature, that refreezing safely in one's own home is almost impossible. Sorry for the tangent, but I've been working with food long enough to know that misguided assumptions lead to horrendously poor food handling and potentially sick people(or animals).

Anyway, I feed live for a few reasons. It's convenient, rather inexpensive as I breed my own feeders- with no waste, as I wouldn't refreeze thawed/warmed up rats, and I truly believe that the freshest food item is the healthiest. I give my snakes 10 minutes to feed, if they don't eat, they wait until next week.

This thread is going in so many different directions I don't even know what to say.

First, my snake doesn't eat fruits or vegetables.

Second, my snake has never been fishing.

Third, I have no idea if he has taste buds. I don't see why he couldn't. But I always thought that snakes used their tongues to smell using their Jacobson's organ. Pretty sure that's what it's called.

Fourth, as it's been said, just throwing a mouse into any freezer doesn't necessarily kill all the bacteria found on it. I'd prefer once-cooked meat as opposed to cooked, frozen, then cooked again. But then again, we never cook the mouse, we just heat it up to thaw it.

And finally, on the main topic of this thread, my snake eats F/T. He's my only snake, so it's easier to buy a box of frozen rodents once a month instead of going a bit farther weekly to buy live. I don't even know what the going rate is for feeders at my local exotic pets store.
However, when my collection expands (if it ever does) I'll more than likely breed my own rats. When I just have a few, I'll order them in bulk. Once I exceed 10 or so I'll likely start the breeding.
So I could go either way. Keep a close eye on live feedings, and you'll generally be fine. You can stop anything before it gets too bad. I'm not sure if snakes "enjoy" hunting, if they get any kind of rush from it, or if it's better/worse for them. What's been said about thiamine being lost from freezing makes sense, but it doesn't seem to have much of a negative impact on the snakes.
The part I hate most about live feedings is the sound of a dying animal. I cringe a little whenever I hear a rat being fed to a snake. But hey, circle of life, amirite?

:popcorn: Now I'll sit back and enjoy watching. This is almost like reading a thread of Xbox 360 or PS3 haha.

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Originally Posted by SpencerShanks

I'd prefer once-cooked meat as opposed to cooked, frozen, then cooked again.

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Meat loaf...it's a scientific fact that it's better the second time around. :D

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Originally Posted by sho220

Meat loaf...it's a scientific fact that it's better the second time around. :D

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This is true :P meat loat sandwhich. haha

No, freezing does NOT kill bacteria. I can't imagine where folks got the idea that it does. Freezing simply puts bacteria into hibernation, and they stop growing and reproducing...well, most bacteria stop. Not all. There is a REASON why you can't keep meat in your freezer forever, and safely eat it. For your home freezer, after 6 months, it's time to throw it away.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/128887818.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../mole00219.htm
http://www.eatingwell.com/healthy_co...g_foods?page=4

Every time you warm up a rodent, the bacteria in it begin to multiply. Since you can only safely leave raw meat for 3 hours before it's dangerous, that time rapidly adds up. You don't know exactly how long the rodent was out before it was frozen the first time, and if it takes a half hour to thaw, and you leave it with the snake for an hour...then you've used up all your safe time in just 2 attempts.
The rodents we feed have all of their gut contents intact. 60% of feces is comprised of bacteria, by dry weight (hows that for a disturbing fact?) The gut of a dead animal is a virulent mass of bacteria, no longer held in check by digestive enzymes and immune system functions.
While snakes no doubt have more resistance to harmful bacteria than we do, that doesn't mean that the bacteria in dead animals can't possibly make them sick. It's in their best interests for us not to take such chances.

Tricks to win over a stubborn live-only eater:

First, feed live, but with the cage/drawer open, and you present. If you can get your snake used to that, then move on to the next step.
Offer a stunned rodent on forceps. If that is accepted...then on to the next step.
Offer a freshly pre-killed rodent on forceps.
Stick to that routine for several weeks, and make sure the snake is well used to it.
Heat an FT rodent until it is hot to the touch (not burning, but hot). Rub the rodent in soiled bedding from live rodents--they usually pee in one corner. This is gross, but get that FT rodent completely scented with the pee from the live ones.
Offer this to your snake, promptly, while it is still hot.

9 times out of 10 (or better), this will be accepted. There's always that one snake once in a while that will give you a really dirty look, and turn away, but most will be fooled. Once they've taken FT this way a few times, you can offer it unscented, and they'll scarf it right down.

I know this kills my comparison, but if you ask me everything is better reheated haha. Especially thanksgiving dinner.

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Originally Posted by SpencerShanks

I know this kills my comparison, but if you ask me everything is better reheated haha. Especially thanksgiving dinner.

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Everything cooked that is ;)

watch the snake eat to be sure it isnt bitten. if the rat does try to bite u can just block the rats teeth. or stun the rat...prekilled . whatever. very simple. that is why u tame your snake.

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

And I also feed live rats to my ferrets. It is 120% more healthy for them than eating commercial food (even the high quality brands). Feeding live provides enrichment and exercise for my ferrets when they hunt and take down rats.

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:rolleyes:

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live :D

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This is exactly the reason why snake owners get a bad rap, because of idiots like you. Why would you want to: a) put your snake at unnecessary risk and b) put the feeder animal through unnecessary suffering? Sounds like a sicko to me.

I guess you're one of those people who see feeder animals as objects, and not living, breathing, feeling creatures. They can feel pain too you know. That's why we have a moral responsibility to minimise suffering where possible. After all, it is giving up its life for your snake... at least be decent about it.

No need for name calling Gavin...this is supposed to be a friendly forum. Differences in opinion are always welcome, name calling is not necessary.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.



:rolleyes:

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.



This is exactly the reason why snake owners get a bad rap, because of idiots like you. Why would you want to: a) put your snake at unnecessary risk and b) put the feeder animal through unnecessary suffering? Sounds like a sicko to me.

I guess you're one of those people who see feeder animals as objects, and not living, breathing, feeling creatures. They can feel pain too you know. That's why we have a moral responsibility to minimise suffering where possible. After all, it is giving up its life for your snake... at least be decent about it.

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Really... I smell a troll, and it's not because you're new and have 1 post, you type the same as someone we all know. :rolleyes: if you're not then my bad.

To this... Why would you insult Jerry? Really? We all have our OPINIONS, what gives you the right to attack him though...? :\

It's possible that he breeds his own rodents, so live is most convenient.

I'm not sure where the idea arises that live feeding is cruel to rodents. I'm personally dubious about how comfortable CO2 euthanasia is, but when a snake constricts a rodent, the rodent is so startled, its body floods with adrenalin, which likely numbs it to any pain from the teeth--they are so sharp, they aren't very painful anyhow. Loss of consciousness occurs within seconds, as the blood flow to the animal's brain is cut off.

Yes, occasionally a snake will hit the animal wrong and it will take longer, but that isn't the norm, and I'm sure that rodents fighting amongst themselves cause more unpleasantness than that, in rodent facilities.

There's no cruelty issue with live feeding, only safety issues.

Even when people are intentionally being malicious?

Sorry, but I will never, ever accept live feeding a ferret. Or intentionally throwing a rat to a snapping turtle and posting it on YT for the lulz. Those sorts of things. It just simply isn't needed at all, it's unnecessarily cruel. Seems like it is done because the owner gets a kick out of watching things die. I have no issue with those who live feed if it's a last resort... but I'm hearing stuff like "because it's convenient". Well, I'd like to see a decent backup of that argument because is that little bit of convenience worth the risk to the snake? I don't understand how it's any more convenient feeding live when with pre-killed, there is no issue of the animal biting back, no issue of prolonged suffering to the prey animal and no issue of parasites. Cheaper in bulk too (depending on where you live).

Now if this convenience comes from the fact that the snake cannot be fed f/t for whatever reason, then fair enough. I can understand. What I can't understand is doing it even if the snake accepts f/t.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

Even when people are intentionally being malicious?

Sorry, but I will never, ever accept live feeding a ferret. Or intentionally throwing a rat to a snapping turtle and posting it on YT for the lulz. Those sorts of things. It just simply isn't needed at all, it's unnecessarily cruel. Seems like it is done because the owner gets a kick out of watching things die. I have no issue with those who live feed if it's a last resort... but I'm hearing stuff like "because it's convenient". Well, I'd like to see a decent backup of that argument because is that little bit of convenience worth the risk to the snake? I don't understand how it's any more convenient feeding live when with pre-killed, there is no issue of the animal biting back, no issue of prolonged suffering to the prey animal and no issue of parasites. Cheaper in bulk too (depending on where you live).

Now if this convenience comes from the fact that the snake cannot be fed f/t for whatever reason, then fair enough. I can understand. What I can't understand is doing it even if the snake accepts f/t.

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So I have TWO snakes that will only take LIVE, won't eat F/T or Pre-killed. (i've wasted quite a few rodents..) Am I supposed to let them starve? I say not. It's part of owning a animal. Some times you have to feed live and some times F/T, it really all depends on the snake.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I'm not sure where the idea arises that live feeding is cruel to rodents.

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The idea arises when people start doing it for show (ie. for entertainment).

Have you ever seen that video of a live rat being put in with a snapping turtle? Horrible stuff. It wasn't 'nature at work', it was some guy getting his jollies. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

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There's no cruelty issue with live feeding, only safety issues.

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I beg to differ. You're throwing the animal in an enclosure, where it will most likely be dreadfully frightened, unable to escape. I also cast doubt on your assessment on what the animal feels, or how long it takes to die. You do not know for sure how much adrenalin there would actually be, or whether it will actually numb any pain at all.

And what about with ferrets, and cats? A domesticated ferret that has never hunted in its life will most likely kill the animal slowly, or even play around with it. Not to mention that both these animals do not need a live animal thrown to it at all. To me, it's not very fair to do that. If the ferret and/or cat catches a mouse by itself, fair enough. But really, canned hunts... ??

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Originally Posted by zeion97

So I have TWO snakes that will only take LIVE, won't eat F/T or Pre-killed. (i've wasted quite a few rodents..) Am I supposed to let them starve? I say not. It's part of owning a animal. Some times you have to feed live and some times F/T, it really all depends on the snake.

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You know, reading is pretty valuable on forums. Read what I said: I said I have no issue with feeding live if it's a last resort thing.

But when you have people saying that they intentionally convert snakes from f/t to live... well, if I don't have a right to say that they're giving snake owners a bad name, then what right do they have putting snakes at risk and putting another animal through unnecessary pain?

As I said, the concept of live feeding irks me when people start doing it when it's completely unnecessary or "just for fun". There's that distinction. Snake owners get a bad rap because idiots put live feeding videos on YT and giggle/laugh at the mouse/rat slowly dying. Live feeding itself doesn't annoy me, but that kind of stuff does. It shows a complete disrespect to life - I mean, how callous would you have to be to film it and laugh at the prey's demise?

If you have a large collection, using tongs to dangle a rodent before each one, which may take many minutes to decide it's hungry, is more than a little bit of inconvenience. It's a tremendous addition of time, which some folks may simply not have to spare. (Time better spent cleaning, etc).

The risk to the snake is really quite minimal, and as I've pointed out, a snake can even be injured by a dead rodent.

I agree that feeding a mouse to a snapping turtle is unnecessary cruelty, I've seen that video as well.
While I've never owned a ferret, it's hard to imagine that a ferret does not kill extremely quickly. I have no opinion on that. I do agree, however, that the ferret would be just as happy with a dead rat, and a toy mouse on a string. Ferrets, after all, are not wild animals.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

If you have a large collection, using tongs to dangle a rodent before each one, which may take many minutes to decide it's hungry, is more than a little bit of inconvenience. It's a tremendous addition of time, which some folks may simply not have to spare. (Time better spent cleaning, etc).

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I don't really think half an hour to an hour (or laziness for that matter) is an excuse to avoid being a little kinder. If it's an inconvenience to make another animal's death easier/less painful, well, I just don't know what to say about that...

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The risk to the snake is really quite minimal, and as I've pointed out, a snake can even be injured by a dead rodent.

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The point would be to minimise the risk as much as possible, it is still there. Much like not wearing a seatbelt. From what, scratches? Which would be a significantly lesser chance of happening than something more serious, like a bite.

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While I've never owned a ferret, it's hard to imagine that a ferret does not kill extremely quickly. I have no opinion on that. I do agree, however, that the ferret would be just as happy with a dead rat, and a toy mouse on a string. Ferrets, after all, are not wild animals.

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Ferrets can be clumsy animals, especially one that has no experience killing anything at all. Can't expect them to be master killers overnight. There's a reason why you hardly ever see pre-killed feedings on YT for ferrets - because it's boring/not as exhilarating for the owner. Not a snuff film.

BTW, here's a link to a good video that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbzKsasn7EE

Veteran snake owner with over 20 years of experience... he's even weened a wild snake off live. He's got 3 other parts to it, I recommend watching it.

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Originally Posted by Gavin

You know, reading is pretty valuable on forums. Read what I said: I said I have no issue with feeding live if it's a last resort thing.

But when you have people saying that they intentionally convert snakes from f/t to live... well, if I don't have a right to say that they're giving snake owners a bad name, then what right do they have putting snakes at risk and putting another animal through unnecessary pain?

As I said, the concept of live feeding irks me when people start doing it when it's completely unnecessary or "just for fun". There's that distinction. Snake owners get a bad rap because idiots put live feeding videos on YT and giggle/laugh at the mouse/rat slowly dying. Live feeding itself doesn't annoy me, but that kind of stuff does. It shows a complete disrespect to life - I mean, how callous would you have to be to film it and laugh at the prey's demise?

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To your insult.. Really?

You say as a last resort? Why? Why honestly? Because you don't like it, well that's your opinion.. But you don't need to argue and pick apart peoples responses so you can try to convert someone or in turn make them look bad. I feed live, so what's the problem? I do it carefully and I don't smack the poor rodent against a rock to stun it.

This was a question thread, not a thread to try to convert everyone to F/T, or whatever someone sees fit. If you don't like the fact some of us feed live, well I really don't know what to tell you..