New smoking restrictions in Washington. Oh boy!

Seru, you keep saying that the NON smokers are the ones who should leave the area when smokers light up.

Why is that?

Why shouldn't the smokers go smoke where non smokers aren't? Why do they get preferential treatment in your eyes over the non smokers? The non smokers are just there, breathing. The smokers are the ones lighting the fires and creating smoke, then selfishly inhaling and exhaling it for all to smell and breathe and be infested with.

Why should the nasty habit of ONE smoker cause 20 NON smokers to have to "walk away or get another table"?

My entire point is the government doesn't have the right to ban smoking in private homes and businesses. Thats my point. The business have the right, but not the government. That alone is the crux of my argument.

You guys are right I could get cancer later. But can you prove it was caused by Second hand smoke? No. Lots of things cause cancer, and science changes all the time cause it's made by fallible man. Heck Scientists change there minds everyday. Take eggs as an example. For years the couldn't decide if they were good or bad for you.


So say I get get cancer. Prove it was because of smoke inhalation. You really can't. The fact is despite all the research we don't know a ton about cancer, and unless you two are cancer researchers, you don't know alot about it either. Oh you might know more than me, thats no feat. But you can't prove the cause of someone's cancer is second hand smoke or even 1st hand. There's alot of factors.

How do you guys explain all the people who smoke like a fire and live to be 80, 90, even 100?

Look I'm not saying smoking is good for ya. Heck no everyone knows it's bad for your health. I'm saying it's been blown out of proportion. And I'm saying people have the right to do things that are bad for them.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

My entire point is the government doesn't have the right to ban smoking in private homes and businesses. Thats my point. The business have the right, but not the government. That alone is the crux of my argument.

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The government can and will do whatever they want to do. That's what I don't like about this 'American Dream' that we're living...we have this government that keeps us from living in shacks and living like a 3rd world country but as soon as they do something that we don't like we get all huffy about it...get over yourself, no system of power has or will ever be perfect...the government is the boss, you're not. If you don't like it then go stick your head in the sand or just leave, go live somewhere that the government doesn't have any regulations and in no time you'll be begging to come back to this government that apparently messes with your 'freedom' too much.

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Originally Posted by Powerspythons

The government can and will do whatever they want to do.

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Yeah no...Read the Consitution jack. It's what made us the greatest freest nastion in the world. People like you are mucking that up thinking government is all powerul. they Can't do whatever they want. They work for us.

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Originally Posted by Powerspythons

That's what I don't like about this 'American Dream' that we're living...we have this government that keeps us from living in shacks and living like a 3rd world country but as soon as they do something that we don't like we get all huffy about it...get over yourself, no system of power has or will ever be perfect...the government is the boss, you're not.

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Again, study history and the consitution. If you wanna be a slave to a government then move. Real Americans are nobody's slave. I'm sure as hell not. So go on and be a whipped dog. You just made yourself irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Powerspythons

If you don't like it then go stick your head in the sand or just leave, go live somewhere that the government doesn't have any regulations and in no time you'll be begging to come back to this government that apparently messes with your 'freedom' too much.

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See the thing is this country is the best and freest country around and we will be again. Most Americans aren't willing to take government oppression. IF YOU wanna be an over regulated slave try europe. You'll be thrilled I'm sure.

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/90/19/1440
I have looked and looked and none of the studies I found say how MUCH exposure to ETS will cause an increased risk in lung cancer or other diseases.
The risk increases with the amount of time exposed to ETS and how much smoke.
I do not believe in the studies the tobacco industry funded to postpone the banning of cigarettes from public places. I don't think you should be able to smoke in a bar, I'm glad that that isn't legal in most places. A room full of smoke is a no-no.
However, I don't see evidence from the studies that breathing ETS while walking into your apartment every day will cause an increased risk in developing cancer. It simply isn't enough ETS inhaled for a measurable risk to be detected. Spousal ETS exposure is different also; these people breathe ETS on a daily basis, and large amounts at a time.
I admittedly did not know much about apartment/landlord rights prior to posting here. I now understand that you are under the landlord's rules, however silly they may be. I apologize for lacking knowledge before opening my big fat mouth on that one.
Wilomn, if you have a survey that disproves any of what I've said, could you post a link?
I'd like to see it.
Shellie

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Yeah no...Read the Consitution jack. It's what made us the greatest freest nastion in the world. People like you are mucking that up thinking government is all powerul. they Can't do whatever they want. They work for us.

Again, study history and the consitution. If you wanna be a slave to a government then move. Real Americans are nobody's slave. I'm sure as hell not. So go on and be a whipped dog. You just made yourself irrelevant.

See the thing is this country is the best and freest country around and we will be again. Most Americans aren't willing to take government oppression. IF YOU wanna be an over regulated slave try europe. You'll be thrilled I'm sure.

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I have read and studied the constitution..I know what it says, I know my rights. I don't feel oppressed by the government in any way actually. The thing is that the rules that are in place are there for a reason. I'm no ones slave. Now I do agree that there is a line that once crossed will make me change my opinion. However for now, I don't think there is anything wrong with what the government says I can and cannot do. My problem with you is that you're acting like the government is coming into your home while your taking a dump, holding a gun to your head and telling you to wipe with your left hand instead of your right(yeah I know its an extreme example)...I just can not comprehend what the government has done to you that makes you feel like the government is oppressing the nation..so please..enlighten me..what have they done to you personally to make you this way??

BTW I have been to Europe..and it was okay. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Powerspythons

I have read and studied the constitution..I know what it says, I know my rights. I don't feel oppressed by the government in any way actually. The thing is that the rules that are in place are there for a reason. I'm no ones slave. Now I do agree that there is a line that once crossed will make me change my opinion. However for now, I don't think there is anything wrong with what the government says I can and cannot do. I my problem with you is that you're acting like the government is coming into your home while your taking a dump, holding a gun to your head and telling you to wipe with your left hand instead of your right...I just can not comprehend what the government has done to you that makes you feel like the government is oppressing the nation..so please..enlighten me..what have they done to you personally to make you this way??

BTW I have been to Europe..and it was okay. :gj:

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Watch the news man. First off they are butting in the healthcare system. They take a perfectly harmless product (Pot) off the market and they waste hordes of money on preventing it's sale.

They Are trying to tell me what species of snake I can own. And most species of Hots are illegal in my state.

Also I am in the Liqour industry. I write about, and create material on cocktails beer and wine. My state has a board that resitricts and controls it's sale and has a chokehold on the industry in the state. It's nearly impossible to create a successful brewery. I don;t know of any distillery. Every private store is undercut by the state stores, And You can't have a container of beer over 16 oz.

All this makes me waste time and money going to georgia so I can stay current on the latest and greatest. Live my dream and do my job. And I fight every day and hound my state reps to change these oppressive laws.


Based on your previous post you really don't know all the ridiculous laws on the books all over the US. And all the Ridiculous things the government does in the name of myths like Global warming. All the money they waste on pointless boards (like the corrupt over powered FDA.)


So yeah I have felt the hand of government around my neck. It ain't chokin me yet but it is getting tighter. And it is keeping me from my dream of rocking the booze industry in this state and someday the country.

Could I move? Sure I've thought about it. But it ain't so easy to leave friends and family that needs you. If I was selfish I'd pick up and go. But instead I fight on for freedom.


Look your fresh out of college and full of liberal ideals. You may have studied the constitution but I'm not sure you understood it.

Think about it man, freedom isn't just doing what you want. It's not just the right to pursue happiness. It's the right to succeed and fail.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Yeah no...Read the Consitution jack. It's what made us the greatest freest nastion in the world. People like you are mucking that up thinking government is all powerul. they Can't do whatever they want. They work for us.

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Here's the NICE thing about Government working FOR us. In cases like this where the two sides will NEVER agree, we can put the issue to a vote and let the majority decide. And as you may notice, the majority of the people in this country don't want to be forced to smell, breathe or ingest smoke in any form whatsoever just because those who choose to smoke don't feel that they should have to step outside and away from the door to do.

And for any who might think that I'm taking a hard non-smoker's stance on this issue, let me clarify. I'm a smoker and have smoked for 16+ years. But I know that is MY choice and not something that I should subject others to, just as I appreciate other smokers being courteous and not subjecting my children to it. I take measures in my own home to ensure they're not exposed, and I appreciate others who do the same. Sure, there's no LAW currently that tells me I CAN'T smoke around other people. But what do you think is going to happen when you begin offending masses of people by acting selfishly and engaging in an activity that DOES effect other people, whether or not your smoke clouded, haze covered eyes can see that FACT? That's right, Government is going to step in and settle the disagreement by enacting legislation that will be in the best interest of the MAJORITY.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

They take a perfectly harmless product (Pot) off the market and they waste hordes of money on preventing it's sale.

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I'll agree with you on this one.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

They Are trying to tell me what species of snake I can own. And most species of Hots are illegal in my state.

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and this one

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Also I am in the Liqour industry. I write about, and create material on cocktails beer and wine. My state has a board that resitricts and controls it's sale and has a chokehold on the industry in the state. It's nearly impossible to create a successful brewery. I don;t know of any distillery. Every private store is undercut by the state stores, And You can't have a container of beer over 16 oz.

All this makes me waste time and money going to georgia so I can stay current on the latest and greatest. Live my dream and do my job. And I fight every day and hound my state reps to change these oppressive laws.

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i dont know anything about this one, but it does sound like you have a cool job. haha

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Based on your previous post you really don't know all the ridiculous laws on the books all over the US. And all the Ridiculous things the government does in the name of myths like Global warming. All the money they waste on pointless boards (like the corrupt over powered FDA.)


So yeah I have felt the hand of government around my neck. It ain't chokin me yet but it is getting tighter. And it is keeping me from my dream of rocking the booze industry in this state and someday the country.

Could I move? Sure I've thought about it. But it ain't so easy to leave friends and family that needs you. If I was selfish I'd pick up and go. But instead I fight on for freedom.


Look your fresh out of college and full of liberal ideals. You may have studied the constitution but I'm not sure you understood it.

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You're right, I don't know all the ridiculous laws..mainly cause they don't/haven't yet affect me..and I feel ya on the fresh out of liberal college thing..and being an environmental science major I get it even more...but global warming is real..there's no way around that..you'll see in about 15 years, but that's beside the point..

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Think about it man, freedom isn't just doing what you want. It's not just the right to pursue happiness. It's the right to succeed and fail.

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I get your points, and I have to respect them. I just didnt see how someone could be so against the gov't..but I suppose you've got more experience in that field than me..so I'll just let it go.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Here's the NICE thing about Government working FOR us. In cases like this where the two sides will NEVER agree, we can put the issue to a vote and let the majority decide. And as you may notice, the majority of the people in this country don't want to be forced to smell, breathe or ingest smoke in any form whatsoever just because those who choose to smoke don't feel that they should have to step outside and away from the door to do.

And for any who might think that I'm taking a hard non-smoker's stance on this issue, let me clarify. I'm a smoker and have smoked for 16+ years. But I know that is MY choice and not something that I should subject others to, just as I appreciate other smokers being courteous and not subjecting my children to it. I take measures in my own home to ensure they're not exposed, and I appreciate others who do the same. Sure, there's no LAW currently that tells me I CAN'T smoke around other people. But what do you think is going to happen when you begin offending masses of people by acting selfishly and engaging in an activity that DOES effect other people, whether or not your smoke clouded, haze covered eyes can see that FACT? That's right, Government is going to step in and settle the disagreement by enacting legislation that will be in the best interest of the MAJORITY.

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Then you don't understand our government we aren't based on Majority rule. We're based on a Representative republic governed by a constitution. We are not a democracy.

So you don't smoke around kids. Fine whatever have a parade. I don't smoke period.

My entire point was it's not the right of the government to tell a private entity they can't allow smoking on the premises. You can choose not to go to that private entity. Speak and vote with your dollar. If your right they will close down from lack of business. Now if the government wants to ban smoking in government owned areas like parks and government buildings then fine thats there right.

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Originally Posted by Powerspythons

I'll agree with you on this one.


and this one


i dont know anything about this one, but it does sound like you have a cool job. haha


You're right, I don't know all the ridiculous laws..mainly cause they don't/haven't yet affect me..and I feel ya on the fresh out of liberal college thing..and being an environmental science major I get it even more...but global warming is real..there's no way around that..you'll see in about 15 years, but that's beside the point..



I get your points, and I have to respect them. I just didnt see how someone could be so against the gov't..but I suppose you've got more experience in that field than me..so I'll just let it go.

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It's no big deal man I am just glad we could have a good dialogue. I could go on and on.

For example the product 4 loko. Really not a harmful product when used responsibly.In The major death it was credited for people fail to realize the person who died was also on DIET PILLS. And Diet pills Alcohol and Caffeine is not a good mix. The cans were literally covered in warnings. The drink itself contained less alcohol and caffeine than a red bull and vodka(Still legal). And only as much caffeine as an Amp energy drink.


The FDA pulled it Citing public safety...when countless people consumed them to no harm. the brand will lose money and I doubt survive as without the caffeine it's just another lousy tasting malt beverage.


We'll have to argue in the QT Room about Global warming someday. I look forward to putting up my dukes against you again someday my friend. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Seru1

It's no big deal man I am just glad we could have a good dialogue. I could go on and on.

For example the product 4 loko. Really not a harmful product when used responsibly.In The major death it was credited for people fail to realize the person who died was also on DIET PILLS. And Diet pills Alcohol and Caffeine is not a good mix. The cans were literally covered in warnings. The drink itself contained less alcohol and caffeine than a red bull and vodka(Still legal). And only as much caffeine as an Amp energy drink.


The FDA pulled it Citing public safety...when countless people consumed them to no harm. the brand will lose money and I doubt survive as without the caffeine it's just another lousy tasting malt beverage.


We'll have to argue in the QT Room about Global warming someday. I look forward to putting up my dukes against you again someday my friend. :gj:

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Yeah I remember 4loko...it was awful and I didn't care they got rid of it..I also think that it only got REALLY popular after someone died from it..it added allure to it.

And I'll be sure to go back and get my college notes ready for the global warming thing. LOL.

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Originally Posted by Powerspythons

Yeah I remember 4loko...it was awful and I didn't care they got rid of it..I also think that it only got REALLY popular after someone died from it..it added allure to it.

And I'll be sure to go back and get my college notes ready for the global warming thing. LOL.

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Yeah it tasted terrible, but there was no reason to get rid of it thats my point. Just because you don't like it or don't use it doesn't mean you shouldn't care when some bureaucrat axes it. Someday it will be something you care about, and when no one is by your side who will be to blame? You didn't stand up for there rights why should they stand for you?

Thats america. I stand for your right to be free and you stand for mine, We keep watch on the government. They are just regular joe's like us. Not All knowing. Heck in many cases they know less than us.

People just stood by and let them ruin people's companies and jobs, why? "I don't drink it. It's not my buisness." People don't think long term, Big picture.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

Then you don't understand our government we aren't based on Majority rule. We're based on a Representative republic governed by a constitution. We are not a democracy.

So you don't smoke around kids. Fine whatever have a parade. I don't smoke period.

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Well yay for you then, maybe we should throw YOU a parade. And if this is the case, then don't take it personally because you aren't part of the group this effects, nor are you one of the offenders whose lack of regard for other people has caused it to become legislated. In an ideal society, we would all respect the rights of others and would make conscious efforts to ensure that exercising our own rights does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

My entire point was it's not the right of the government to tell a private entity they can't allow smoking on the premises. You can choose not to go to that private entity. Speak and vote with your dollar. If your right they will close down from lack of business. Now if the government wants to ban smoking in government owned areas like parks and government buildings then fine thats there right.

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And this right here brings me full circle to my initial post in this thread. We're talking about GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED HOUSING. According to posters in the state of Washington, there is already legislation on the books banning smoking within 25 feet of entrances to public buildings. So, the "new" legislation that warranted this entire thread was only talking about the government enforcing a ban on smoking within 25 feet of the public entrance of this government owned or subsidized building. They own it, they're the landlords, they're the final word.

My arguments have nothing to do with the government and smokers rights.

My arguments have to do with NON SMOKERS rights. If smokers want to go into a sealed room with fans and filters that contain and destroy the smoke so the rest of us don't have to smell it and smell LIKE it, I say FULL SPEED AHEAD.

The rights of smokers INFRINGE on the rights of non-smokers. I don't care if you smoke, how much you smoke, or how much you pay for smoking. Just please, please don't make me endure it with you.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Well yay for you then, maybe we should throw YOU a parade. And if this is the case, then don't take it personally because you aren't part of the group this effects, nor are you one of the offenders whose lack of regard for other people has caused it to become legislated. In an ideal society, we would all respect the rights of others and would make conscious efforts to ensure that exercising our own rights does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.



And this right here brings me full circle to my initial post in this thread. We're talking about GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED HOUSING. According to posters in the state of Washington, there is already legislation on the books banning smoking within 25 feet of entrances to public buildings. So, the "new" legislation that warranted this entire thread was only talking about the government enforcing a ban on smoking within 25 feet of the public entrance of this government owned or subsidized building. They own it, they're the landlords, they're the final word.

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I would like a parade, can we do it brazil style cause I like feathers.


Anyway. this is about Government subsidized housing?! Well then...Totally there right to ban it there. Don't I feel dumb.


I was only speaking on behalf of all the privately owned businesses that have been reemed. But if you take government money then you open yourself up to there big bad boot.

Sooo yeah. Done here. On to drinking.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

God everyone wants government to do everything for them. Why not solve your own problems instead of crying to government to take away our rights.

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I'm not allowed to solve the problem of an inconsiderate smoker in my airspace. There are laws that prevent me from handling it myself.

It's akin to a neighbor who thinks it's MY problem when I'm bothered by his barking dog. I'm under no obligation to move, and I have to depend on the law to solve the problem for me - mostly because I would go to jail if I solved it myself.

Look, I'm a constitutional libertarian. Whatever you want to do for and to yourself is your business...as long as it doesn't infringe on my right to enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - the way I see fit. Smoking in my space does. Take it somewhere else. If you won't, then you force me to enact laws to force you.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

My entire point is the government doesn't have the right to ban smoking in private homes and businesses. Thats my point. The business have the right, but not the government. That alone is the crux of my argument.

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I agree 100% with this statement. But that's not really what you've been saying...

I have read this thread from start to finish and have been following it closely.

I really only have one thing to contribute.

I took an anatomy class this year and took a picture of these lungs...

This is what lungs look like from second hand smoke, you can still see tar...Obviously second hand smoke has SOME effect.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4...10330at618.png

Now these pictures aren't mine but this is what a healthy pair of lungs looks like...

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8...ealthycopy.jpg


And last of course this is what smokers lungs look like, this is from someone who smoked almost all of their life...

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/132...okerslungs.jpg




Now if you are someone who is alright with doing that to your body, your LUNGS, something is not right in your head.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

My entire point is the government doesn't have the right to ban smoking in private homes and businesses. Thats my point. The business have the right, but not the government. That alone is the crux of my argument.

You guys are right I could get cancer later. But can you prove it was caused by Second hand smoke? No. Lots of things cause cancer, and science changes all the time cause it's made by fallible man. Heck Scientists change there minds everyday. Take eggs as an example. For years the couldn't decide if they were good or bad for you.


So say I get get cancer. Prove it was because of smoke inhalation. You really can't. The fact is despite all the research we don't know a ton about cancer, and unless you two are cancer researchers, you don't know alot about it either. Oh you might know more than me, thats no feat. But you can't prove the cause of someone's cancer is second hand smoke or even 1st hand. There's alot of factors.

How do you guys explain all the people who smoke like a fire and live to be 80, 90, even 100?

Look I'm not saying smoking is good for ya. Heck no everyone knows it's bad for your health. I'm saying it's been blown out of proportion. And I'm saying people have the right to do things that are bad for them.

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People do have the right to do things they want and in general I think people should be allowed to smoke in a private home. Now that being said these are homes that are subsidized by tax payer money. If you want to spend your money to buy cigarettes then make enough to afford a residence all by yourself along with those cigarettes.

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Originally Posted by eracer

I agree 100% with this statement. But that's not really what you've been saying...

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I can't argue with you. To be honest I've been drinking since about 11:30 Central. It's my offday and well.. Bleh

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Originally Posted by Egapal

People do have the right to do things they want and in general I think people should be allowed to smoke in a private home. Now that being said these are homes that are subsidized by tax payer money. If you want to spend your money to buy cigarettes then make enough to afford a residence all by yourself along with those cigarettes.

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And I really really, had no idea this was about public housing. I utterly missed that. And I feel very stupid.

If you live in public housing your subject to a much higher level of government intrusion. Yes they have the right to ban it in public housing.

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Originally Posted by Seru1

I can't argue with you. To be honest I've been drinking since about 11:30 Central. It's my offday and well.. Bleh.

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It's cool. Well, except for you being a Flyers fan...heh heh heh.:D

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Originally Posted by Egapal

People do have the right to do things they want and in general I think people should be allowed to smoke in a private home. Now that being said these are homes that are subsidized by tax payer money. If you want to spend your money to buy cigarettes then make enough to afford a residence all by yourself along with those cigarettes.

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^I have nothing to add, this sums it all up^

smoking ban in mn been around for awhile 25 ft from a buisness no smoking in bars etc i think its a good thing i smoked for 13 years and just quit 2months ago and its still tough nobody really likes to smoke unless they r kids and still think its cool its a drug and very addicting hopefully it helps people quit my 2 pennies