People like this should be locked up

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Originally Posted by Raptor

I've never been charged by any of my animals. Males that show aggression towards me are either promptly sold or castrated. Sometimes both. I have no tolerance for my animals being aggressive. Perhaps this is why I can go out and handle my male animals during the peak of breeding season when they should be at their most aggressive.
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Since several people had said that those who kill snakes should be put in jail/killed..Come get me. I'm sure a judge would find your reasons laughable.

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and im sure judges are complete animal experts too. yep none of them are ignorant rednecks :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Raptor

I've never been charged by any of my animals. Males that show aggression towards me are either promptly sold or castrated. Sometimes both. I have no tolerance for my animals being aggressive. Perhaps this is why I can go out and handle my male animals during the peak of breeding season when they should be at their most aggressive.
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Since several people had said that those who kill snakes should be put in jail/killed..Come get me. I'm sure a judge would find your reasons laughable.

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Like I said before jail is a no for me.
But do you condone the sensless killing of venoumous snakes? Or would you rather learn what to do about it?
And if you have had to sell or castrate your bulls then they were still agressive... Now just someone else has to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

Like I said before jail is a no for me.
But do you condone the sensless killing of venoumous snakes? Or would you rather learn what to do about it?

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I have little problem with it. There's also little I can do about it. I live out of city jurisdiction so there's no calling animal control (can't even take animals to the city shelter for this reason). I have no experience dealing with hots, so I can't capture it. I also reside on 80 acres so I can't relocate it (provided I had the experience to deal with hots) without dumping it on someone else's property. That would essentially be dumping the problem on someone else..Plus no doubt cause a massive amount of stress on the animal.

Additionally, I don't deal with cattle. I deal with goats, usually the ones sold are yearlings and weigh in at around 60-80 pounds. Not as large or potentially dangerous as a bull, but they can still do damage with horns.

Castration removes testosterone which takes the aggression down a great bit. Selling them usually involves taking them to the sale barn. Often times, they're bought by a meat buyer.

It's one thing doing it out of the safety of your family and neighbors if you don't know how to do it safely in any other manner.

Making a public show out of it and calling the presses to come make a news story out of what a macho man you are.. is a completely different thing.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

I have little problem with it. There's also little I can do about it. I live out of city jurisdiction so there's no calling animal control (can't even take animals to the city shelter for this reason). I have no experience dealing with hots, so I can't capture it. I also reside on 80 acres so I can't relocate it (provided I had the experience to deal with hots) without dumping it on someone else's property. That would essentially be dumping the problem on someone else..Plus no doubt cause a massive amount of stress on the animal.

Additionally, I don't deal with cattle. I deal with goats, usually the ones sold are yearlings and weigh in at around 60-80 pounds. Not as large or potentially dangerous as a bull, but they can still do damage with horns.

Castration removes testosterone which takes the aggression down a great bit. Selling them usually involves taking them to the sale barn. Often times, they're bought by a meat buyer.

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Thank you. (drools mmmmmm goatttt). Sorry off topic...
But anyways. It's not that big of a problem for you. And I agree this guy shouldn't have waved it around like a hillbilly... And thanks for the information. I'm sure if there was a large problem with hots in your area though something could come of it. Maybe someone local who doesn't mind removing and moving it to crown land or something.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

Thank you. (drools mmmmmm goatttt). Sorry off topic...
But anyways. It's not that big of a problem for you. And I agree this guy shouldn't have waved it around like a hillbilly... And thanks for the information. I'm sure if there was a large problem with hots in your area though something could come of it. Maybe someone local who doesn't mind removing and moving it to crown land or something.

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I haven't seen any hots up close for quite some time. It's mainly limited to cottonmouths and copperheads. Admittedly, I'm not a fan of killing snakes. I'm fairly familiar with the local species and I can tell which are venomous and which are not. I often go snake hunting when I'm hiking and I see a beauty. However, I've had a goat bit by a venomous snake before on the inner thigh. He ended up losing some function in his back end. He couldn't run properly: he couldn't coordinate his legs properly. He couldn't stand up on his hind legs: they'd buckle under him. I have no idea what kind of snake struck him. I just know that it effected him quite a bit and I have little desire for that to happen to any of my other goats. Luckily, he's the only one that's been bit, and I've probably had a total of almost 150 goats here, counting the ones that have been sold/died.

Killing the snake...eh I dont know. Cutting its head off and making a big story about it, STUPID.

I have a sort of mixed opinion on this topic. I started catching wild snakes when I was 4. My parents knew nothing about snakes and killed every snake they saw, rattlers, bullsnakes, garters, etc. I ended up educating them. I myself have killed rattlers before when I was really young if I felt that they were a danger to my little sisters or my dogs. But I also started catching them when I was 8. Anyone who has half a brain could easily trap the snake and relocate it themselves or call someone who will.

I mean seriously I know venomous snakes are scary because they are dangerous, but really all you have to fear is freaking out and not handling it correctly. I do suggest tongs if you have them, but even grabbing them with your hands isn't all that hard.

Its weird to see posts on here by snake lovers who are scared of venomous snakes. I don't really understand it. How can you differentiate your opinion of the animals based solely on their methods of hunting and defense? Seems a bit ignorant to me I guess.

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Originally Posted by jtyson123

Its weird to see posts on here by snake lovers who are scared of venomous snakes. I don't really understand it. How can you differentiate your opinion of the animals based solely on their methods of hunting and defense? Seems a bit ignorant to me I guess.

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Probably because a venomous snake can kill a human much more easily than a nonvenomous.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Probably because a venomous snake can kill a human much more easily than a nonvenomous.

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Since you have 80 acres is there a safe haven on your property you could relocate them? I don't recommend using your hands but maybe a stick or or something?
After the goat was struck was the meat still edible or did you have to put it out of it's misery/ count your losses?

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Probably because a venomous snake can kill a human much more easily than a nonvenomous.

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Its ignorant for people to use fear as their basis for judgement on any topic.

As far as all pets go, should we kill pit bulls and rottweilers as they tend to be more aggressive (or so they are portrayed by television and movies), yet save everyones blue heelers because they are less likely to cause as much damage?

If you understand something entirely and know how it works, you have no reason to be scared of it. You can learn to respect the danger of a venomous snake and do what you can to avoid them. After all technically WE are the invasive species. Not them.

I personally know a half dozen people who have been bitten by the rattlesnakes here in New Mexico, and NONE have died. All were forced to seek immediate medical attention, but none died. And all of them were bitten because they were either stupid and messing with the snake, or because they accidentally stepped on it. Not the snakes fault, just its problem. And it took care of its problem the only way it knew how and used what it is equipped with.

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Originally Posted by jtyson123

Its ignorant for people to use fear as their basis for judgement on any topic.

As far as all pets go, should we kill pit bulls and rottweilers as they tend to be more aggressive (or so they are portrayed by television and movies), yet save everyones blue heelers because they are less likely to cause as much damage?

If you understand something entirely and know how it works, you have no reason to be scared of it. You can learn to respect the danger of a venomous snake and do what you can to avoid them. After all technically WE are the invasive species. Not them.

I personally know a half dozen people who have been bitten by the rattlesnakes here in New Mexico, and NONE have died. All were forced to seek immediate medical attention, but none died. And all of them were bitten because they were either stupid and messing with the snake, or because they accidentally stepped on it. Not the snakes fault, just its problem. And it took care of its problem the only way it knew how and used what it is equipped with.

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What?

It's perfectly reasonable for people to use fear of injury or death to judge something if it's a valid concern! I have far more fear of black widows of brown recluses than I do of wolf spiders, and I would kill either of the former if I found them in my house while I routinely ignore the latter that I find everywhere. I'm a lot more afraid of the flu than I am of a cold, and I'm a lot more afraid of MRSA and VRE than I am of less resistant organisms.

Large dogs are not more aggressive, but they DO have the capacity to cause more harm and therefore should be treated with more caution. I don't think it's unreasonable to euthanize a large breed, aggressive dog if it is posing a risk to humans, and I don't think it's unreasonable to kill a snake that is posing a similar threat. I don't think anyone is advocating proactive slaughter of venomous snakes that are not posing a threat like you are suggesting with this analogy, though.

I'm surprised this was news, frankly. People around here routinely kill the hots in our area. It has never bothered me, really. Human life is more important to me than snake life. I would rather see a dead snake than an injured human. Bash if you want, but I figure the snake would be happier to see a dead human than injuring itself so I'm not sure why that's much different.

It's snake nature to protect itself. It's human nature to do the same.

this should turn into a poll

right or wrong..

seeing how it is a snake forum, im sure it could prove interesting to see who thought this was right. or if not "right" then "justified" perhaps?

as for me, i think what he did was justified. nobody I know has ever been bitten bc im not friends with 4 year olds.

a venemous snake IS more dangerous than most mammals. it IS venemous... theres no "it COULD be venemous!", yes some mammals CAN carry diseases, but how many times have u HEARD or even SEEN on the news or the paper of someone getting killed bc of a squirrel attack... tbh, if it ever DID happen, it WOULD appear on the news... people kill rats bc they can carry diseases, but the reason is bc they can manage to get into ur house...

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Originally Posted by Jeremy78

Since you have 80 acres is there a safe haven on your property you could relocate them? I don't recommend using your hands but maybe a stick or or something?
After the goat was struck was the meat still edible or did you have to put it out of it's misery/ count your losses?

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As said, I lack the knowledge to deal with hots. In addition, the cottonmouths are extremely aggressive. There isn't a safe spot on the property to relocate since pretty much all of it is fenced for the goats. There's one spot way back in the back, but it's basically on the other side of the property and required going through several pens and takes at least ten minutes to get there. We discovered the bite marks at the end of the day (goats leave at day break and go to pasture, then come back about 30 minutes before dusk). Mom and I noted that he wasn't walking properly, so we checked his legs and there, we noted the bite marks. The injuries had scabbed over and besides the hind end issues, he wasn't ill. We ended up butchering him the next year and while eating some leg tissue, mom found what appeared to her as a snake fang. I never saw it so I don't know if it was actually a fang or if it was gristle.

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Originally Posted by jtyson123

Its ignorant for people to use fear as their basis for judgement on any topic.

As far as all pets go, should we kill pit bulls and rottweilers as they tend to be more aggressive (or so they are portrayed by television and movies), yet save everyones blue heelers because they are less likely to cause as much damage?

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Any breed of dog that gets on the property is fair game to get shot. I have no bias.

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If you understand something entirely and know how it works, you have no reason to be scared of it. You can learn to respect the danger of a venomous snake and do what you can to avoid them. After all technically WE are the invasive species. Not them.

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Sure, I might understand how a venomous snake works. Doesn't mean my animals will. I have animals that will run from something unknown, and others that will go investigate. Which will get bit? I can't teach them to avoid snakes. The only thing I can do is remove the venomous snakes when I find them. I have little desire to lose part of my investment. I'm not sure how much I have invested in the livestock at the moment. Purchasing alone it's well over $10,000. Include feed, wormer, vet visits, and medication? I haven't a clue.

I totally understand protecting your investments, pets and family, but killing them is extreme. They are simple to catch and relocate. The snakes aren't doing anything wrong by being there. As I said WE are the invasive species and so is whatever we choose to bring along with us, be it livestock, pets, children, etc. Since we are at the top of the food chain obviously we won't be going anywhere but I think it is only fair for us to do everything in our power to relocate the animals rather than slaughtering them.

Sure its no big deal for people to kill hots, it is common. So is crack cocaine and meth-amphetamine addictions nowadays. So just because something is common doesn't really make it okay.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Depends on what the mountain lion was doing. If it attacked you/livestock, then yes, you could probably shoot it under the idea of it being a danger to humans/livestock. You'd have to call the game warden afterwards.

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for any wildlife you are supposed to call fish and game or your local law enforcement and let them deal with it you are not allowed to take matters into your hands period unless it is directly attacking you or your family

Hmmm I think its fine. Aslong as it was a clean cut and the head came off I think its fine. I mean there is all this talk of big breeders culling their normals in reccessive breedings and we all support them directly or indirectly by buying the morphs.

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Originally Posted by JEWSKIN

for any wildlife you are supposed to call fish and game or your local law enforcement and let them deal with it you are not allowed to take matters into your hands period unless it is directly attacking you or your family

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Maybe where you are. Oklahoma law says you're allowed to shoot them if they're a danger/pest.

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Originally Posted by DarkSean

Hmmm I think its fine. Aslong as it was a clean cut and the head came off I think its fine. I mean there is all this talk of big breeders culling their normals in reccessive breedings and we all support them directly or indirectly by buying the morphs.

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Very good point, and I KNOW there are breeders who do this!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by JEWSKIN

for any wildlife you are supposed to call fish and game or your local law enforcement and let them deal with it you are not allowed to take matters into your hands period unless it is directly attacking you or your family

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Bull Mullarkey...In my state you do not have to wait for DOC or law enforcement!!!!!

If he pinned it's head and then took the time to hack it off, wouldn't it have been just as easy to turn the snake in the other direction and let it go?

It would have done far more good over it's lifetime eating all the rodents we despise. Out here in southern Arizona we are OVER-RUN with rats. They are everywhere and cause considerable damage - and yet people don't think twice about driving off to the shoulder to kill a snake. I'm dumbfounded - again.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

only one that's been bit, and I've probably had a total of almost 150 goats here, counting the ones that have been sold/died.

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150 goats and only one has been bit, and im willing to bet that you havnt gone around and killed off all the hots that are on or near your land?

you know animals are not as dumb as you may think they are, birds dont eat some butterflies cuz they know them to be poisonous and rattlesnakes dont have rattles because of humans its for all animals and it seems to have worked so far. nature works till we screw it up.

how man ranchers live in areas where there are venomous snakes and have thousands of livestock and lose few to none due to snake bites?

i know my uncle has ran several cattle farms for 40+ years and has never said anything about losing a animal to a snake bite and believe me when i say if it happened you would hear about it cuz he never stops talking about his cattle.

as far as people breeding snakes and culling them off well that's their choice and frankly I wouldn't do it but that's me......as far as calling fish and game or law enforcement yeah everywhere they are cracking down especially here too many endangered species due to macho people thinking omg it was a gonna eat me walking a hundred yards away in the opposite direction or omg that snake was in the dirt off the side of the road and there may have been some threat about it so I swerved to hit it.....Pretty soon people are going to realize the laws change with out them knowing it only in the last few years has operation game thief been in action now and well people are paying the price

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

150 goats and only one has been bit, and im willing to bet that you havnt gone around and killed off all the hots that are on or near your land?

you know animals are not as dumb as you may think they are, birds dont eat some butterflies cuz they know them to be poisonous and rattlesnakes dont have rattles because of humans its for all animals and it seems to have worked so far. nature works till we screw it up.

how man ranchers live in areas where there are venomous snakes and have thousands of livestock and lose few to none due to snake bites?

i know my uncle has ran several cattle farms for 40+ years and has never said anything about losing a animal to a snake bite and believe me when i say if it happened you would hear about it cuz he never stops talking about his cattle.

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As I mentioned, I'm on 80 acres and have only killed the hots up near the house. It'd be impossible to go and kill off all the hots. While animals might not be dumb, they are overly curious. I've had many animals get injured due to how curious they are. Additionally, cattle are much different than goats. Size, for one example.

The average weight of a cow is 1400. The average weight of a goat is say..120. The cow is about 12 times heavier than the goat, meaning the venom will be diluted. I once had a 1200 pound horse get bit by a snake. Other than localized swelling, she was fine. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I had a 60 pound goat get bit who ended up losing some muscle function after being bit.

I'd also hazard a guess that you're uncle doesn't have five ponds near/on his property and a large network of creeks like I do (I have three ponds on the property, two that are about 100 meters apart with a third that's about a quarter mile away. On either side of the property, you can hop a fence and find two more ponds. Crisscrossed over the east and south part of the property are numerous creeks..In short: prime cottonmouth territory).

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Originally Posted by Raptor

As I mentioned, I'm on 80 acres and have only killed the hots up near the house. It'd be impossible to go and kill off all the hots. While animals might not be dumb, they are overly curious. I've had many animals get injured due to how curious they are. Additionally, cattle are much different than goats. Size, for one example.

The average weight of a cow is 1400. The average weight of a goat is say..120. The cow is about 12 times heavier than the goat, meaning the venom will be diluted. I once had a 1200 pound horse get bit by a snake. Other than localized swelling, she was fine. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I had a 60 pound goat get bit who ended up losing some muscle function after being bit.

I'd also hazard a guess that you're uncle doesn't have five ponds near/on his property and a large network of creeks like I do (I have three ponds on the property, two that are about 100 meters apart with a third that's about a quarter mile away. On either side of the property, you can hop a fence and find two more ponds. Crisscrossed over the east and south part of the property are numerous creeks..In short: prime cottonmouth territory).

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Originally Posted by JEWSKIN

as far as people breeding snakes and culling them off well that's their choice and frankly I wouldn't do it but that's me......as far as calling fish and game or law enforcement yeah everywhere they are cracking down especially here too many endangered species due to macho people thinking omg it was a gonna eat me walking a hundred yards away in the opposite direction or omg that snake was in the dirt off the side of the road and there may have been some threat about it so I swerved to hit it.....Pretty soon people are going to realize the laws change with out them knowing it only in the last few years has operation game thief been in action now and well people are paying the price

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Culling is part of any breeding operation. You're going to get subpar animals and you're going to have to find a method of unloading them. I'm fairly certain you wouldn't keep and breed a snake with severe kinks. Also..fish and wildlife isn't going to care about killing cottonmouths and copperheads. They're not endangered in the least bit.

Edit: oh snap. Hit the quote button instead of edit >_<

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Originally Posted by Raptor

I'd also hazard a guess that you're uncle doesn't have five ponds near/on his property and a large network of creeks like I do (I have three ponds on the property, two that are about 100 meters apart with a third that's about a quarter mile away. On either side of the property, you can hop a fence and find two more ponds. Crisscrossed over the east and south part of the property are numerous creeks..In short: prime cottonmouth territory).

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you would be very wrong on that guess he also has several ponds and a couple creeks that go threw his property (well the one he lives at i havent been to all of the ones that he over sees) fished and swam in them all the time growing up and had quite a few run ins with hots as well.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

As I mentioned, I'm on 80 acres and have only killed the hots up near the house. It'd be impossible to go and kill off all the hots. While animals might not be dumb, they are overly curious. I've had many animals get injured due to how curious they are. Additionally, cattle are much different than goats. Size, for one example.

The average weight of a cow is 1400. The average weight of a goat is say..120. The cow is about 12 times heavier than the goat, meaning the venom will be diluted. I once had a 1200 pound horse get bit by a snake. Other than localized swelling, she was fine. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I had a 60 pound goat get bit who ended up losing some muscle function after being bit.

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14lbs or 1400 if something gets tagged by a hot it would leave some sort of in most cases and still havent heard any of those.

plus 1 bite out of 150 goats on 80 acres in prime cottonmouth country thats pretty low considering how dangerous they are that they have to be killed to protect your livestock. either you killed more than your saying or they are not as dangerous as we think.

and compareing killing a hot to killing a wolf, moutain lions etc is wrong. a moutain lion can be an actual threat to your livestock as they see it as a food and a snake only would bite them in order to protect themselves.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

14lbs or 1400 if something gets tagged by a hot it would leave some sort of in most cases and still havent heard any of those.

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Not always. On the horse, the welling went down in a matter of days. If you're not going out and checking the animals daily, you're not going to find anything.

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plus 1 bite out of 150 goats on 80 acres in prime cottonmouth country thats pretty low considering how dangerous they are that they have to be killed to protect your livestock. either you killed more than your saying or they are not as dangerous as we think.

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The goats aren't allowed on all 80 acres. They're allowed in different pastures for a certain amount of time. The pastures range from 5-20 acres. Since the herd doesn't always spread out, there's a lot lower chance of them running into multiple snakes. Plus with the livestock guard dogs running about..I'm sure the lot make a lot of noise/vibrations.

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and compareing killing a hot to killing a wolf, moutain lions etc is wrong. a moutain lion can be an actual threat to your livestock as they see it as a food and a snake only would bite them in order to protect themselves.

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If it's an animal that can result in death or injury of my livestock, it's a threat.

Here's the deal. I live around rattlers, not many here specifically, but the area is known for some here and there. Because of the rare sightings, if I found one in my yard .. in my neighborhood, I honestly would do one of two things right away.

1) Find a bucket and trap it .. see if I can move it safely. If not, see if someone else can move is safely.

2) kill it

I would have zero issues killing a poisonous snake that was in my neighborhood. none. It's spring time, I see little kids rolling around on the grass, and running between houses and through lawns. I know what I was like as a kid, and my gut instict is if this is found by a kid, there will be issues .. I just don't even want to think about that chance happening.

Would I call the press? no. Do I understand what went through his mind? yes.

Venomous snakes will find a way to let you know they are there they'd rather not waste their venom on something they can't eat...not to mention it has been proven and documented that a venomous snake will let you pretty much step on it with out striking so long as you don't reach for it.....as far as children go well they should be educated first and foremost about what is safe and what isn't or even to back away when they see a snake and get an adult there are much better ways to go about this than just killing on site

Ya Jewskin that's easy to say. But we tell kids all the time not to run in the road, or play in that lake, or go inside the barn that's about to fall over. They do it anyway. They're kids!! And if your childhood was anything like mine, you understand the danger, but...I don't know its just too easy to ignore the advice.

Accidents happen and children die. It is a horrible fact, but it happens. No child on earth made it through childhood without an injury of some kind.