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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
"There is something wrong with people who will simply think nothing of killing off animals that are either not up to their personal standards, or that they are having too much trouble finding homes for."
And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in. See my point? Which is worse?
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
No, that comparison was made by a member here other than me, but in this same thread. It was a good analogy, so I reused it to explain my point, again, because it takes emotion out of the equation. Didn't I just go over this with you?
No, I said I didn't know her well enough to call her a liar, and said if she were being truthful with me, that she's the first ball breeder I ever met who cares that much to do what she does for her animals. Others backed her up, and respect her for it, so now I do too.
Actually. You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator. That made me laugh, and I thought you were trying to be funny, and break the ice a little. My bad I guess....sheesh. Next time I won't politely laugh.
Sir, you keep misqouting me. Please read above in the last few exchanges I have had with you. Thats not fair, and called putting words in my mouth. I m not here to make friends, andif being truthful is making me look bad, then that OK with me.
Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum. The really great thing is that you guys are helping me make my point. Your not attacking my logic, your attacking me personally by misqouting me, and negating my thoughts with GodStatements. Thats your emotions talking, which I totally get, and just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby. And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.
S~
Actually I said I would rather lose my iPhone than one of my normal males. You just misquoted me. It's easy to do with this many posts in a thread, huh.
Oh, and you did call Robin a liar. Calling her one flat out then saying "but I'm not calling you a liar" is still calling her a liar.
I think it's pretty obvious that we will not agree here. You won't find tons of members here who will completely agree with you as most of them put the animals first. As was said before, I believe that if you can't or are NOT WILLING to care for any animals that you intentionally bred then you shouldn't be breeding so many animals.
You have mentioned how bad these "Godstatements" are, but you are playing God by picking and choosing who gets to live between animals that you are solely responsible for bringing into the world. I'm not going to continue going back and forth with you. I will just have to hope that you only hatch out attractive babies I guess.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilomn
You don't want a conversation, you don't want a debate. You want us to tell you it's ok.
Good luck with that.
LMAO :community
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders.
Ahhh ... but here is where you implode. You have some posts that talk about using snakes as feeders, but you have many more posts that advocates the killing of low value animals in order to:
#1 save them from a potential owner that won't care for them because they're cheap
#2 save them from being released and being a potential liability to our hobby
#3 save our hobby from a possible pandemic of over production
So which is it? If it's just killing for feeders, I don't think this thread would be 9+ pages long. You're advocating killing for lack of value ... unless I missed the post where you were feeding $100+ snakes to lizards?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat.
The fact that shelters are killing cats and dogs doesn't not give the act moral justification. Killing is wrong. People that work in shelters will tell you the same thing. The difference is that people in shelters aren't breeding. You are killing AND breeding ... pointing at people and saying "look, they're doing it too" doesn't justify your actions, it makes you look defensive and sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
There are way more out there already than need be.
If that's true, then why do you continue to breed? I mean, if it's not about money for you as you said in your original post, what is it then. Not about money and too many snakes out there, yet you continue to produce over 300 snakes a year ... why? Is it because you get a kick out of killing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes
Why do you keep talking about "blowing out" a living creature? These aren't DVD players or big screen TV's ... we're talking about one of the most precious things on the planet ... a life. Why do you have such contempt and disrespect for animals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
We are already under pressure. Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks. it's not worht it IMHO.
So, it's worth it to kill cheap animals so that you can keep breeding and selling the valuable stuff? I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life? Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you. What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it?
If you seriously need to find a home for a burmese python, there are resources available to help you. I know for a fact that USARK and PIJAC both have programs to help you and there are hundreds of rescues nationwide that will take in unwanted burms. If you don't know how to find such resources, I'd be happy to help you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think.
By showing them that we're so callous and have such a disregard for life that we're willing to kill in order to keep selling "high value" animals that we produce? I think not.
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
"So you are by your own definition a large scale breeder because you produce more then 100 animals per year.... And you have been around a long time.
But you also are NOT a big breeder because you only breed 300 babies per year, and that's not many."
It's an attempt at being humble. I know you understand this, but choose to nitpick it anyway. Thats pretty telling. There are people who produce WAY more than that.
"You just started working with ball pythons this year, but somehow we as a ball python forum should consider that you have been around for a long time"
What does species have to do with it? I have been keeping snakes for 30 years. We are using ball pythons because they are the most commonly kept, and popular pet snake...how does that not make sense? Just because i decided to start working with them as a breeder doens't mean I have never seen them before, or know nohting about them. Really?
"This is an idiotic statement at best. You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about. This could not be further from the truth. I am not even going to begin to try to argue my point on this because you have already made it clear that it would be a waste of time. "
Please take a lesson from Wilomn. If you can't debate me, then don't say anything or you risk weakening your own position. Tell me why I have no clue, and then we are moving forward.
" I wish their was a way to immediately ban you from being able to even keep reptiles... let alone breed them. Luckily though sooner or later we will find out who you really are and your business will be in ruins without any outside help"
Emotions are not your friend...I don't have a reptile business. It's a hobby that I enjoy, and have for 30 years. I own other sucessful business's that enable me to have a fun hobby. I am not saying anything that hasn't been discussed multiple times by multiple people in private conversations. I just have the guts to say it here, and invite a discussion, which a few of you are not capable of having without getting all worked up. The funny thing is, most of the large breeders, so far, have had nothing to say...why do you think that it folks?
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
The funny thing is, most of the large breeders, so far, have had nothing to say...why do you think that it folks?
S~
Because talking to you is much akin to cleaning a kennel. It may be necessary, but you still get crap on you just from doing it.
You're no better than anyone else. You're not braver. You're not breaking the mold, you're not much of anything other than someone who seems to need a LOT of attention.
Your 15 minutes are almost up.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
"
The funny thing is, most of the large breeders, so far, have had nothing to say...why do you think that it folks?
S~
LMAO, I will risk my perfect infraction points on this but you really are misinformed, and everyone in this forum is laughing at you. :8:
Do you have ANY idea who some of the people are taking part in this conversation?
guess not.
Good Day.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Exactly what larger breeders are you looking to hear from on this forum? Adam is one of the largest breeders that regularly posts here and he has no issues responding. The funny thing really is that he DOES do this as his business and is not willing to support this idea, but someone who does this as a hobby is willing to shove it down everyone's throats. That is kinda funny. You strike me as someone who wants to breed for specific things and is willing to just toss the rest. I'm willing to bet that you will stand here and hold your ground even though you will continue to get shut down by the other members, and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh
and everyone in this forum is laughing at you.
I don't know about "everyone", but judging by the amount of PM's and TXT's I'm getting with the letters LOL in them ... it's a lot. :gj:
-adam
EDIT: sorry, that was supposed to be in a PM ... whoopsie. :P
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltah!
you will continue to get shut down by the other members, and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.
Where it will be fed to his arawana and promptly forgotten.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilomn
Where it will be fed to his arawana and promptly forgotten.
Only if it's an unattractive ball:rolleyes:
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in.
I think I speak for most people that frequent here: whether I buy a snake for $10 or $1,000 doesn't matter, they are both my pets and get treated the same.
My normal male that has no real value in $ but has a lot of value to me as a pet and gets treated with as much care as my $200+ morphs. There are people who will buy that "ugly" or "low value" snake and keep it as a valued, well cared for pet, as long as you take the time to wait for that person to come along.
I'm ok with feeding snakes as feeders and breeding them for that purpose.
I'm not ok with putting down a perfectly good animal that is "ugly", assuming the low price tag means a low quality of life. Imo, it is unnecesary and devalues life.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Ahhh ... but here is where you implode. You have some posts that talk about using snakes as feeders, but you have many more posts that advocates the killing of low value animals in order to:
#1 save them from a potential owner that won't care for them because they're cheap
#2 save them from being released and being a potential liability to our hobby
#3 save our hobby from a possible pandemic of over production
So which is it? If it's just killing for feeders, I don't think this thread would be 9+ pages long. You're advocating killing for lack of value ... unless I missed the post where you were feeding $100+ snakes to lizards?
Neither. I said long ago, and have continued to say, that I don't like to cull, and I only feel good about it when I use them as feeders for my lizards or my arrowanna. At least that way I feel they have a purpose, and it's not useless death. The reasons that I cull, are the reasons that you just listed. they are completely related, and don't contradict at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
The fact that shelters are killing cats and dogs doesn't not give the act moral justification. Killing is wrong. People that work in shelters will tell you the same thing. The difference is that people in shelters aren't breeding. You are killing AND breeding ... pointing at people and saying "look, they're doing it too" doesn't justify your actions, it makes you look defensive and sad.
So are you. You are the puppy mill that chooses not to cull, and sell everything they proudce for whatever they can get for it. I am the breeder who sells only what he thinks should be sold. See the difference? My method keeps animals out of shelters...that was my point sir.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
If that's true, then why do you continue to breed? I mean, if it's not about money for you as you said in your original post, what is it then. Not about money and too many snakes out there, yet you continue to produce over 300 snakes a year ... why? Is it because you get a kick out of killing?
Don't be foolish. Why do you breed your animals? I suspect for the same reasons I do. Mostly, it's a ton of fun. The difference is I cull, and you don't. Thats it. I don't enjoy it. I just think it's better for the hobby. thats all this is about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Why do you keep talking about "blowing out" a living creature? These aren't DVD players or big screen TV's ... we're talking about one of the most precious things on the planet ... a life. Why do you have such contempt and disrespect for animals?
You know what that means don't you? Moving a large quantity of less than desireable animals at a discounted price? Do i really need to say that? Are you trying to make me look bad becuase I use a completely appriate phrase? Really? A life is a life this is ture. My animals have a purpose. If I don't think they have the potential to be a lifelong pet for someone, they have a purpose as a feeder animal. In your model, they have two purposes. to make you a quick ten bucks, and to, in most cases, live a subpar existance and maybe even be killed through neglect or euthanized at a shelter after years of neglect. Man....I am evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So, it's worth it to kill cheap animals so that you can keep breeding and selling the valuable stuff? I see.
No, I never said that. I am not selling everything I produce. You are. Who is the money grubbing fiend? All things being equal, you make more money than I do in that situation. I do HAVE to cull if I want to keep breeding, but thats becuase I create the same normals and unwanted phenotypes that you do. The difference is...I think selling the less valueable ones hurt the hobby...you dont' care, and make your money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
If you seriously need to find a home for a burmese python, there are resources available to help you. I know for a fact that USARK and PIJAC both have programs to help you and there are hundreds of rescues nationwide that will take in unwanted burms. If you don't know how to find such resources, I'd be happy to help you.
Thats not true. Thats sounds great an all, but most of those places that do take them are not no kill shelters. So why would I send an animals there? most of the no kill shelters are over run, and continue to be over run, byt people who dont' have the heart to cull their own stock before they "blow it out" for an easy sale.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
On what planet is death better for a living creature than life?
Blessings,
-adam
Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes? ;)
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronP
Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes? ;)
I didn't hear Adam supporting PETA anywhere in this thread.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.
I maybe cull 15 or 20 animals per year. I am not feeding babies by the plateful. I am just making educated guesses as to what the likelyhood is of how this animal will look as an adult, and how likely it will be to find a true, long term home. If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.
S~
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders. I also think that in doing so, it helps our hobby. I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat. There are way more out there already than need be. So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes and ask if it's doing us any good as a hobby? We are already under pressure. Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks. it's not worht it IMHO.
If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life? Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you. What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it? This question comes up hundreds of times everyday already in the hobby. Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests. It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think. Don't you?
S~
I saw this thread before anyone replied to it, and knew it was going to end up a complete storm. I knew this because of how you brought this topic up in the first place, here.
I COMPLETELY understand people using BPs for feeder animals for their cannibalistic snakes. But like Adam said, if that was the original, actual point for this thread it would not be reaching 11 pages.
You call yourself a big breeder, but then you're not a big breeder. If these animals have such a terrible quality of life that you chose to kill them rather than to trust them in the hands of people YOU YOURSELF COULD HELP EDUCATE, I have nothing to say to you that would make you listen to me and the other people on this forum who have expressed the same exact concern in the past 11 pages of this mess.
You say we need to "lower our production footprint" but you only euthanize 15-20 animals a year? How is this actually reducing a footprint? From what I understand about carpets, they have larger clutches than BPs but I have no research data on carpets because I have no plans to breed them.
If you have such an accurate crystal ball to see into the future then you knew how people would react to this thread based on your ridiculous responses and accusations. You could also have tried to DO something about the burms in Florida. Instead, you sit here pu-pu-ing us for...not doing something. Honestly I think i lost your point on that one... Education is the KEY to saving our hobby.
As for your 18 foot burm, hypothetical or not, there are people that can help you with that animal. Offering it (hypothetically or not) to another hobbiest who, as far as you know, has no interest in keeping such a large and taxing animal is JUST as irresponsible as what you accuse the keepers-that-never-were of doing. You know, those keepers whose possible snakes you culled because they'd apparently never take care of them because they are low value? And on a tangent, if people were EDUCATED (theres that word again) about these animals before they purchased them, maybe they'd know that they arent an acceptable pet for them. Believe me, I know more than one person who was sold a Burmese python and told it was a BALL python. How does that help us?
My "most affordable" snake was 11 dollars. She was a rescue. She has a place here, for the rest of her life in my collection. She is JUST as important to me as the animals I paid more than 11 dollars for. She's priceless to me.
Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
The problem is, if I have to give up my hobby, it's not choice at all. I'll cull snakes all day long rather than give it up.
Um, wow. I'm really not sure what to say to this. So...the hobby in and of itself is more important to you than the snakes are?
Why do you breed snakes? I truly want to know because it clearly isn't a love for the animals. (I just want to satisfy my own curiosity.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in. See my point? Which is worse?
How many people here have mentioned they find good homes for their "ugly, unwanted" snakes? Who is this "they" you are referring to?
Yes, there are people who care more about the almighty dollar than the animals and will sell them to anyone "with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can." I don't know what fraction of breeders fall into this category, but just from reading people's responses here and reading the "About" sections of many other breeders, I'd have to say it's the minority.
I do still think there is merit in the argument that something that costs less doesn't get the same care as something that costs more. Again, I am referring to people and things in general, not everyone. It's just human nature. (I like the $10 sunglasses example!)
Then again, I've noticed that reptiles, in general, are more likely to be considered "throw-away" animals. Again, I'm referring to the general public, here. My vet tech friend tells me stories of people who don't want to treat their snake's RI or have surgery to save the life of their tortoise because "it's just a snake" or "it's just a tortoise." She's even heard someone say that if it were their dog, they'd spend thousands to save it without thinking twice, but they weren't willing to spend a couple hundred to save their turtle.
However, just because a snake "might" end up in the wrong hands does not, in my opinion, justify killing said snake. It might end up in a bad home (if one doesn't take the time/effort/money to make sure it doesn't) or it may not. You may die a slow, painful death someday, or you may not. Would you rather just die now instead of maybe suffering a lot later?
You're free to think/do what you will, but I agree with others here who have said that you need to do it for the right reason, not for a false reason you want others to justify. For example, rabernet (sorry, I don't know your name right offhand) values the lives of every snake she produces. Therefore, she will spend extra time/money/effort to find good homes for them. You, it seems, do not value the lives of every snake you produce, so you prefer to feed it to your other pets. If you did value the lives of all the snakes you produce, you'd either try hard to produce as few "throw-away" snakes as possible, be sure to find good homes for them, or you'd stop your hobby altogether.
I'd also like to know where all these shelters are that (1) actually accept reptiles and (2) are overflowing with unwanted snakes. Even the herp societies around here don't have very many (as far as I know).
Oh, one more thing. You say you cull your "ugly" animals because you think it will help our hobby against those who turn loose unwanted animals and lead to the legislative issues we've been having lately. The only animals that are becoming problems are the big snakes (Retics, Burms, Rocks, etc.), and that problem is only occurring in Florida. Culling "unwanted" ball pythons or jungle carpet pythons does not help this issue any at all. No one's JCP or BP is going to survive for very long if turned loose, so your argument here is faulty.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltah!
I didn't hear Adam supporting PETA anywhere in this thread.
You misunderstand me Waltah!, I wasn't suggesting that he supports PETA, I am pointing out that that is what they believe.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltah!
I'm willing to bet that you will stand here and hold your ground even though you will continue to get shut down by the other members, and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.
Your right. I came here to debate a point that, again, has been a hush hush topic for years. It will be forgotten. That's why I know I can come here and debate, and it won't affect my sales at all. Noone knows who I am anyway right? But I can promise that I'll come back when this overproduction problem bites us in the ass, and I'll say I told you so, and you'll eat crow. And we will all be losers because we have lost some, if not all, of our rights as hobbiest's. Mostly because you are overly sensitive, or you don't give a crap, and are out to make a buck for yourself, to hell with the hobby.
And I do know who some of the names are. I see 3 people I'd call kinda large breeders. I hope more post, and can be honest in thier thoughts. I am not here for attention, to get yelled at. I am here to tell people what I do, even though it sucks, with some of the animals that are byproduct offspring of some of my projects. I think it's a much more feasible model than what most of you do now. After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?
I could answer that but then this thread would go on and on.
However, it's not about humanity in general but about his specifically.
He thinks only of himself, he is right, always, no matter the evidence to the contrary and will brook no one saying otherwise.
Hang on a second here, ...... one more, just one more annnnnnnnnd that's it.
Your 15 minutes are up.
See ya, wouldn't want ta be ya.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad-one
I think I speak for most people that frequent here: whether I buy a snake for $10 or $1,000 doesn't matter, they are both my pets and get treated the same.
The people to worry about are not the people who come here. We are the minority in my arguement. I am the same way, and so are most of the people here I suspect.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.
S~
And then the big boys all ganged up on me and said mean things.....
Go. lurk, sink not.
Please.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinderbird
My "most affordable" snake was 11 dollars. She was a rescue. She has a place here, for the rest of her life in my collection. She is JUST as important to me as the animals I paid more than 11 dollars for. She's priceless to me.
Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?
Again, you are not the problem on the husbandry end. None of us are that frequent places like this. The problem is, the snakes end up in the "dude hold my beer while I go get my python" person's hand, who will untilmately lose interest. Then what happens? Why not keep back 10% and just use them as feeders, and avoid some of that crap?
My faith in humanity is blown, thats pretty clear. People though, are predictable to a very high degree of probablility. The life of a large, unattractive and god forbid, mean python, can be nearly as predictable IMHO. Thats why I try to avoid that when and where I can.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.
S~
You're telling me.
You say you can come here and debate this and not lose any sales. You have admonished folks here calling them "money grubbing fiends" I believe it was. The fact that you would think you would lose sales by discussing this in a venue where you are more well known kinda throws you in that category. I forgot to mention that I do know who you are. You have lots of carpets. You purchased an already established forum. Good for you.
BTW, I'm not sure if you are all too familiar with Mr. Wysocki, but in referring to him as a "money grubbing fiend" you could not be more wrong.
When this goes away you can go back to killing healthy babies for your own selfish reasons and we will forget that you ever posted here.
See there....we can agree to disagree. Hey, at least that's somethin.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Okay, I have another question.
If you did not have any animals to feed your unwanted snakes to, would you still cull them?
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
The people to worry about are not the people who come here. We are the minority in my arguement. I am the same way, and so are most of the people here I suspect.
S~
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Again, you are not the problem on the husbandry end. None of us are that frequent places like this. The problem is, the snakes end up in the "dude hold my beer while I go get my python" person's hand, who will untilmately lose interest. Then what happens? Why not keep back 10% and just use them as feeders, and avoid some of that crap?
My faith in humanity is blown, thats pretty clear. People though, are predictable to a very high degree of probablility. The life of a large, unattractive and god forbid, mean python, can be nearly as predictable IMHO. Thats why I try to avoid that when and where I can.
S~
Except that there are a lot of breeders who are trying to change that. Rabernet has given you concrete examples,and I know for a fact that Adam is there LONG after the sale of his animals and that he takes calls from people who have never purchased anything from him just so he can help. There are a lot of other people who share the same views of the two aforementioned people.
I plan on breeding BPs starting in the next few years. And i've thought heavily about this. I am fully prepared to keep every animal i produce if I can't find it a home that meets my requirements. Any first time ball python owner will be getting a black and white copy of my book, my cell phone number and my e-mail so that they have the information they need and the means to get it. Like Rabernet, i will be there long after the animal finds a home in case someone needs me. Animals that are no longer wanted will be coming back to my collection to either stay with me or find a new home with another owner.
Once again, education is the key.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilomn
And then the big boys all ganged up on me and said mean things.....
Go. lurk, sink not.
Please.
Do you think you are making yourself look good? I blew you away in our debate, and now all you do is insult me. Wow...you have a ton of character. not much has changed since the BOI way back when though I guess. Same dude...same debating logic...same response when he loses.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by Eventide
Okay, I have another question.
If you did not have any animals to feed your unwanted snakes to, would you still cull them?
No. Thats why I bought them. They were purchased after I determined I shouldn't be dumping all of my offspring into the marketplace unwanted. i don't have the heart to throw them in a freezer.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
No. Thats why I bought them. They were purchased after I determined I shouldn't be dumping all of my offspring into the marketplace unwanted. i don't have the heart to throw them in a freezer.
S~
on a slight tangent... if there is no freezer, how do you cull your animals?
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by waltah!
Y "money grubbing fiends" .
Mr. Wysoki intended to show that I was in this position to make money somehow. I am pointing out clearly by using that term, that I am not the guy who is making more money with the less caring model...anyone who advocates creating tons of animals with no regard to where they will go and who will end up with them is in fact the evil doer. Sorry you don't like the term, but if you are going to try to make me look like I am somehow in this for my own selfsish gains, then I have the right to come back at you.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Do you think you are making yourself look good? I blew you away in our debate, and now all you do is insult me. Wow...you have a ton of character. not much has changed since the BOI way back when though I guess. Same dude...same debating logic...same response when he loses.
S~
This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread. And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Neither. I said long ago, and have continued to say, that I don't like to cull, and I only feel good about it when I use them as feeders for my lizards or my arrowanna. At least that way I feel they have a purpose, and it's not useless death. The reasons that I cull, are the reasons that you just listed. they are completely related, and don't contradict at all.
So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
So are you. You are the puppy mill that chooses not to cull, and sell everything they proudce for whatever they can get for it. I am the breeder who sells only what he thinks should be sold. See the difference? My method keeps animals out of shelters...that was my point sir.
You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't produce one animal more than I can place in a responsible home each season. Whatever I can get for it? Are you out of your mind? You know nothing about my business practices, what I sell, what I give away, what I donate to schools, and the values with which I live my life.
You are the breeder that has so little regard for the life of an animal, you can spew off a dozens of justifications for killing and show absolutely no remorse. Your methods result in the death of a healthy animal. I see a HUGE difference.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Don't be foolish. Why do you breed your animals? I suspect for the same reasons I do. Mostly, it's a ton of fun. The difference is I cull, and you don't. Thats it. I don't enjoy it. I just think it's better for the hobby. thats all this is about.
I breed ball pythons because I love and respect them. Not just the hottest morphs, not just the ones that I can get the most money for, all of them. I am fortunate enough to be able to take a life long passion and make a career out of it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm happy ... I live my life, raise my children, and run my business with a respect for the blessing that is life and if for one second I thought that killing was a requirement for doing what I do for a living ... I'd stop.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Are you trying to make me look bad
Nope, you're doing a great job of that all by yourself.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
In your model, they have two purposes. to make you a quick ten bucks, and to, in most cases, live a subpar existance and maybe even be killed through neglect or euthanized at a shelter after years of neglect.
How dare you. Who do you think you are to lay those claims on me? A quick ten bucks? Are you out of your friggen mind? You don't know anything about me let alone how I sell my animals. I've never sold any animal for a "quick" any amount of money and I work extremely hard to make sure every animal I sell goes to a great home with a responsible owner. I offer all of my customers the opportunity to return the animal to me if they can no longer care for it. I donate animals to fund raisers, schools, and charities and do whatever I can to promote our hobby and the centuries old tradition of keeping animals as pets. I do it not for myself, but for the animals ... they are my passion. It's a concept that I'm certain you'll never understand.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Man....I am evil.
I think morally bankrupt would be a better description.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
You are.
No, I am not. You are just making things up at this point. It's pathetic really.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
All things being equal, you make more money than I do in that situation.
How would you have any idea what I make? You have absolutely no idea what my business practices are. Weren't you just puffing your chest a couple pages ago about your skills as a debater? And this is how you come at me?
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I do HAVE to cull if I want to keep breeding
That's only because you're either too lazy or inept to find the animals that you feel aren't worthy of your time or attention loving homes. If you feel that a good enough excuse for killing healthy animals, rock on.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
The difference is...I think selling the less valueable ones hurt the hobby...you dont' care, and make your money.
Killing is wrong. People like yourself that have no value for the life of animals that we should be bending over backwards to protect and care for hurt our hobby. People who can look at an animal in terms of its "value" and decide that it's not worth doing everything in their power to find and guarantee that that animal has a good home hurt our hobby. People like YOU hurt our hobby.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats not true.
Yes, it is true. I've worked with PIJAC on their re-homing program and USARK is actively working on a new campaign for re-homing as well. Check your facts.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats sounds great an all, but most of those places that do take them are not no kill shelters.
Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about? Show me one reptile rescue that is putting animals that they take in down. I speak with rescues all over the country week in and week out and they are all happy to take in animals and provide them with forever homes either in their own facility or through screened people that contact them.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
most of the no kill shelters are over run, and continue to be over run, byt people who dont' have the heart to cull their own stock before they "blow it out" for an easy sale.
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about and you're just making stuff up at this point. Almost all reptile rescues are not overrun ... they're short of resources for sure and could really use a lot more donations, but they're making it work with what they have.
In closing, since you're SO concerned about this hobby, have you taken the time to join USARK and PIJAC yet? If you did great, if not I promise you that it's going to be more helpful than killing animals.
Blessings,
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
...anyone who advocates creating tons of animals with no regard to where they will go and who will end up with them is in fact the evil doer.
I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. This is why most of us here create animals with the intention of trying to find good homes for the ones that will not or may not sell well. When you keep pushing this argument, you infer that all of us here create "tons of animals with no regard to where they will go."
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by cinderbird
Except that there are a lot of breeders who are trying to change that. Rabernet has given you concrete examples,and I know for a fact that Adam is there LONG after the sale of his animals and that he takes calls from people who have never purchased anything from him just so he can help. There are a lot of other people who share the same views of the two aforementioned people.
I know. And I have enjoyed talking with those folks. Like I said, there are always exceptions. Look, if you are the kind of person who is really good at placing all of your animals, even the ones that are not that easy to place, more power to you. All I am saying is that if you are not that kindof person, and it's not about just making a quick buck for you, culling is an option thats way better than dumping them for cheap, and hoping they do OK. The stigma that surrounds culling is illogical, and purely an emotional response because we like snakes.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby.
You don't want honest debate...you want to proselytize your position.
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"I love this debate, because it's all about feelings.
And yet you try to tell us to take feelings OUT of the equation?
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This is a hobby that I enjoy, and I won't jeapordize my hobby to make you guys feel better about killing off unwanted animals (which is good for the hobby).
What makes you think ~I~, or anyone else, needs to "feel better" about you killing off your unwanted animals?
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I would take it one further and argue that, I am doing ugly snakes a service by ending their lives quickly rather than letting them changes hands from owner to owner dozens of times, until eventually they die from abuse or worse, they escape or are let loose
ASSUMING such a fate is the destiny of all "ugly" snakes.
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This is what happens to the majority of ugly, unwanted animals, including snakes.
ASSUMING this happens to those poor "ugly" animals.
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...you send tens of thousands of them (unwanted) off each year, to die much more prolonged deaths,
ASSUMING this many snakes are affected in this manner each year. Do you have statistical proof to back it up? Or your own personal perceptions of the world around you? The argument that it's "just logical" doesn't hold water.
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but is the reason the hobby is in the state that it's in.
ASSUMING the fact that every breeder isn't killing off all their "ugly" or "cheap" snakes is the reason our hobby is in "the state" that it is in?
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You guys want to see all of the designer stuff ,and you want to work on all the projects for double, triple, even quadruple mutations..
ASSUMING that is all we're interested in?
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
So when you produce 100 (i don't know if you do or not, its a rhetorical question) normal Ball pythons, and you wholsale them for $10 each to a jobber,
ASSUMING everyone who produces 100+ snakes must be wholesaling them to turn a quick buck?
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Why not? I am nto freezing them or chopping their heads off. I am choosing to use them as feeders to care for my other animals.
Your methods are not in question at this point...it's your motivation.
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There are exceptions to every rule...but you have to look at this from the majority point of view.
How very fascist of you. How dare one life be given a chance simply because someone else's life might be hard?
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Why then are you not willing to take the next responsbile step, both for the animals and the hobby, and figure out a reasonalble way to deal with the offspring...both desirable, and undesirable?
ASSUMING the person in question isn't being responsible simply because they don't choose YOUR method of "dealing with undesirable" offspring???
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Is ti really a good idea, good for the animals, and good for our hobby to send out tens if not hundreds of thousands of cheap, ugly snakes into a marketplace full of impulse buyers?
So you blame the irresponsible buyers for your inability to respect life enough to give it a chance?
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
If you want to breed snakes, you are going to have to deal responsibly with ALL of the offspring...not just the ones that sell well. Dumping them into the marketplace I think is bad from every angle. It just sucks to cull them, so we don't do it...but I think we should.
S~
ASSUMING folks who breed snakes don't already deal with the responsibility of their offspring. ASSUMING they don't kill them just because "it sucks" to do so? ((Personally, my moral compass isn't guided by "what sucks" and "what feels good"))
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
No not at all. I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby. A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine. I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.
Not doing a very good job of it, but I'm gonna ASSUME that you think you are.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I guess my response to this would be that I have seen my animals in other peoples care, and the ones that I am most unhappy about, are always the ones that they value the least ie normals or non-pet snakes.
So what are you doing selling snakes to folks that don't want them in the first place?
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So unhappy that I feel badly for having sold them in the first place.
I thought emotion wasn't supposed to be involved in this?
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The answer to this would be to keep them all, but thats unreasonable, as I can't do that.
No, the answer is to work a little harder to sell them to folks that actually WANT them.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I did answer it. Price is an excellent indicator of perceived value. Thats your answer. When you can't sell a snake for $30...that should tell you something...especially if you have 100 of them.
You didn't answer, you ASSUMED your perception of price vs. value is the same for everyone else as it is for you.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct? Thats what most...not all..but most of us do with them.
ASSUMING you know what everyone else is doing...and that they must be doing the same thing you are.
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Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill? We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than thier needs to be. Thats kinda my point.
If that is your point of view, then isn't it unethical for you to be breeding at all???
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You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do.
ASSUMING "we" do things the way you do.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims.
Just remember this one... :rolleyes:
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This is also why they do not comment on this thread...they have an image to uphold or it hurts sales. Thats the facts.
ASSUMING their silence is endorsement of your argument. That's a rich one.
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I am one of those guys, I am just not afraid to tell the truth.
Just remember this one, too...
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It's patently foolish for us to act like a bunch of saints while the Govt. is trying to take our rights away as keepers and breeders
So instead...we should act like a bunch of freaks who kill whatever doesn't live up to our personal standards? That'll endear us to the masses.
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I am talking about the guys who create hundreds or thousands of animals that their just isn't a market for.
ASSUMING there isn't a market for these animals.
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They dont' do this on purpose...it's an unfortunate side effect of producing the animals we are trying to make...morph crosses etc.
This right here seals your point of view and makes it crystal clear to anyone who hadn't already gotten it. These beautiful animals are nothing more than "an unfortunate side effect" because they're not what YOU wanted.
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I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks. Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.
Glad we could provide you your evening's entertainment. :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true.
ASSUMING Robin is lying just because you can't believe someone would care that much.
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Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar,
And yet, you did.
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but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.
You really need to get out more.
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And even so, the point still remains. I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.
That's not a POINT...that's YOUR ASSUMPTION.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Of course you can. It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.
How many seriously expensive pure bred (and even expensive non-pure breds like "puggles") dogs end up in shelters and rescues? TONS. How many "free" rescued dogs live beautiful, happy lives? Most. By your logic, ALL mutts should be put down before they even have a chance to find a good home, but those pure bred, expensive ones got it made in the shade.
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There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.
There is no "rule" here...just your ASSUMPTIONS.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Start naming the assumptions,
They're bolded. ;)
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Someone a while ago used an excellent example. I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator? If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most? For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go".
You're ASSUMING that "many" folks value life as little as they value dollars.
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Why not curb that flow of animals a little? Whats the harm? It makes you feel bad?
What's the harm in killing for convenience???? Seriously???
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I am not a proponent of culling to better the breed. I never have been.
What's the difference???
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here. Most of the folks here are like me,...
You just seriously contradicted yourself in this one quote alone. I can promise you that "most folks" HERE are NOT like you.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I never said you were liars. Not once.
You can protest all you want, but you DID call Robin a liar. Maybe you've flipped around based on testimony that followed her statement, but you made it crystal clear that you did NOT believe her when she first posted.
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I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did. I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position.
That's the problem...you're ASSUMING that emotions should not be involved in the argument (even though you stated at the very beginning that they must inevitably be so) Electronics are NOT the same as animals and the analogy falls flat, at the very least.
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You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement.
Most of the folks here are truly passionate about the animals they care for...whether it is one, a handful, or hundreds. Passion and emotion cannot be separated. So, you're ASSUMING that folks are simply not buying your point of view (our judgment being affected) only because we're "too emotional".
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... and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people.
The reason they don't (and WON'T) make sense is because LIFE has VALUE. A point YOU fail to grasp no matter how many times others have reiterated it.
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We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers. Thats all.
If you really feel this strongly about it...and IF you truly valued the lives you claim to...then rather than kill them for the mere misfortune of being born, you would simply NOT BREED THEM in the first place.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
I am not a big breeder. Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.
Just go back and see how you defined "big breeder" earlier in the discussion. And how you described yourself.
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There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it.
HALF?? HERE?? Show me who agrees with you. While some may have agreed on the principle that under the right circumstances snakes are as much a viable feeder-animal as others.....I dare say that is FAR from agreeing with anything you are saying here.
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Actually. You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator.
No...he said he'd rather lose a $300 phone than to lose a $20 ball python. Because LIFE is far more valuable than any electronic trinket, no matter how pricey.
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Sir, you keep misqouting me.
As you misquoted him. :rolleyes:
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Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum.
WHO are these "tons" of people? And if no one ever talks about it, how can you ASSUME so many of us must be thinking it?
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... just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby. And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.
ASSUMING your method is truly what is "best" for the hobby.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by Eventide
I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. This is why most of us here create animals with the intention of trying to find good homes for the ones that will not or may not sell well. When you keep pushing this argument, you infer that all of us here create "tons of animals with no regard to where they will go."
Point taken. I feel like I keep having to say the ame things over and over, because people jump in without reading everything prior.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by AaronP
This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread. And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.
Maybe his "pea" is bigger?
No doubt I shamed him in the past and he's got issues.
Not the first, doubtful he's the last.
Your logic is flawed shawnc. You base much on assumptions that others have proven are wrong. You ignore facts that point out you are in error.
There's no debate. You wanted to argue, you got an argument.
Now you just look like a sore loser as well as a bit of an ass.
And no, I haven't changed. I'm still calling them like I see them. My integrity is still intact. I'm still glad I'm not you.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by AaronP
This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread. And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.
He refuses to debate me, and just say "I am right because you are not" you can't earn respect in an arguement when you don't make any valid points, and just try to insult people.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
culling is an option thats way better than dumping them for cheap, and hoping they do OK.
See, and that's the part that explains why a lot of PM's and TXT's are going back and forth right now referring to you as a sociopath ... how about instead of killing them, you just don't breed. Because if in your mind, "dead" is better than mistreated, abused, neglected, or released ... I can guarantee you that "not born" is even better than dead. :gj:
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
He refuses to debate me, and just say "I am right because you are not" you can't earn respect in an arguement when you don't make any valid points, and just try to insult people.
S~
Like I said, maybe my pea sized brain doesn't understand your comprehension of what is being said here. I actually have a very different opinion than most about this topic, and I had to "pick sides" I'd say I would be sitting somewhere in the middle. I understand both sides of the argument, but I have only had to put down terminally ill animals, and not Healthy animals so frankly I cannot give what I would consider a credible opinion because I have never been put in that predicament.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by AaronP
Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes? ;)
I think that PETA is probably sending this guy and honorary membership as we speak. ;)
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?
If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way, then I guess thats the only option yeah.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't produce one animal more than I can place in a responsible home each season. Whatever I can get for it? Are you out of your mind? You know nothing about my business practices, what I sell, what I give away, what I donate to schools, and the values with which I live my life.
Remember, at the begining of the thread, I said that "you" refers to everyone who is debating me. i have to assume you are all, basically one person, in order to argue my pints without going on tangents. I am not attacking you personally. I have no idea who you are.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
You are the breeder that has so little regard for the life of an animal, you can spew off a dozens of justifications for killing and show absolutely no remorse. Your methods result in the death of a healthy animal. I see a HUGE difference.
Then this is where we differ as people you and I. i'd rather cull animals I think are most likely doomed for poor quality lives right at the start. You'd rather give them all a fighting chance. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I breed ball pythons because I love and respect them. Not just the hottest morphs, not just the ones that I can get the most money for, all of them. I am fortunate enough to be able to take a life long passion and make a career out of it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm happy ... I live my life, raise my children, and run my business with a respect for the blessing that is life and if for one second I thought that killing was a requirement for doing what I do for a living ... I'd stop.
OK fair enough. But don't you think, even a little bit, that at some point, producing normals is doing more harm to the hobby than good? These are the animals mostly likely to not find good permahomes.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I donate animals to fund raisers, schools, and charities and do whatever I can to promote our hobby and the centuries old tradition of keeping animals as pets. I do it not for myself, but for the animals ... they are my passion. It's a concept that I'm certain you'll never understand.
I understand it completely, and I commend you. Do you think I have not done the same? What you are not hearing from me is that I think that doing too much of that is a bad thing. What you don't want to hear is that alot of those animals that you donate end up, eventually, in someone elses hands. You have no control over them at that point. So why freak out when you nip some of that in the bud by culling via feeding at the outset?
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I think morally bankrupt would be a better description.
Be careful. This is your emotions again. You don't know anything about me other than I have a different approach to my hobby than you. That one thing about me tells you nothing other than you and I have different philosophies. Thats all.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
How would you have any idea what I make? You have absolutely no idea what my business practices are. Weren't you just puffing your chest a couple pages ago about your skills as a debater? And this is how you come at me?
I don't know. Remember, "you" means the typical, sell everyting you can produce to make a buck breeder. I am not attacking you personally. And I never said I was a good debator, I just said debate me, don't insult me or dismiss me without stating a point of view. Thats why I came here, to see what a larger forum thinks about this same topic.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
That's only because you're either too lazy or inept to find the animals that you feel aren't worthy of your time or attention loving homes. If you feel that a good enough excuse for killing healthy animals, rock on.
Thats just mean. Again, you don't know me. Because it's snakes, you are getting emotinal and making it personal. I can assure you that culling is a last resort for any of my animals, but at the end of the day, it's the best thing for the animals, and the hobby IMHO. Do you know how hard it is to find a permahome for a ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python who'd like to eat your face? It's better for the animals to ind purpose as a feeder...just like the thousands of rats I am sure youhave fed over the years. it's no different at all save for your emotions.
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
Killing is wrong.
Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not. fi it keeps from flooding the marketplace, thats even better.
S~
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
I think that PETA is probably sending this guy and honorary membership as we speak. ;)
-adam
Nah, he'd have to want to cull EVERYONE'S animals for that to be the case. This guy is....off, but PETA is down right bat crap crazy!
And to Clarify Shawn, I see where you're coming from in your OP, but I don't understand why you think everyone should agree with you. The point of a debate is to state the facts and to persuade the audience, this is more of a heated conversation because the majority of the arguments being made are fueled by personal opinions, and by definition an opinion is not a fact.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money;) yeah, right.
When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
I still say if ya'll send me a snake rack, I'll take those icky normals :rofl:
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
You don't even have to send me a rack, you don't want it? I'll give you my number and wire you the money to ship it to me.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
I happen to work in a store that gets our local breeders normal balls, normal corns etc. And guess what, they get more than adequate care and we educate our customers to ensure the snake lives a healthy life. I know we aren't the only ones who do this, and the fact that the breeder sold them to us for 15 bucks is irrelevent, they're still going to perfectly deserving keepers. Of course there are some bad stores out there, but to say ALL cheap snakes are better off dead is absurd. For someone who's been around as long as you, you should at least have seen some evidence of this.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way, then I guess thats the only option yeah.
I see. So lets be clear. You ARE FOR the wholesale killing of animals that don't have any perceived value in your opinion. It has nothing to do with feeders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Remember, at the begining of the thread, I said that "you" refers to everyone who is debating me. i have to assume you are all, basically one person, in order to argue my pints without going on tangents. I am not attacking you personally. I have no idea who you are.
Then don't quote my posts. Because my posts are my own and not from some ambiguous "YOU" that you prefer to address in mass. When you quote me directly, you make it very personal ... that's how forums work FYI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Then this is where we differ as people you and I. i'd rather cull animals I think are most likely doomed for poor quality lives right at the start. You'd rather give them all a fighting chance. I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect it.
Why do you even bother keeping animals? I mean, if you can give animals a good quality of life, why can't someone else? Do you think that highly of yourself that you believe that there aren't other people out there competent enough to provide animals with a great home? And why can't you do the work to find those people for the animals that you so easily talk about killing? Isn't busting you butt and tracking down good homes for an animal better than killing it?
You can't have it both ways ... you can't say that there are so many animals out there that we need to kill ... but then support breeding and making more animals. The sheer lack of ethics involved in that kind of logic is mind blowing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
OK fair enough. But don't you think, even a little bit, that at some point, producing normals is doing more harm to the hobby than good?
Absolutely not. 5 years ago, over 180,000 ball pythons were imported from Africa, this year that number is well below 100,000 ... I think reducing the numbers of imports through captive breeding is a good thing. If we start killing off normal ball pythons, the import numbers will go back up and animals will be killed needlessly during the import process which is bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
These are the animals mostly likely to not find good permahomes.
That's your opinion. It's not true for the animals that I produce and the animals that many members of this forum produce. We work extremely hard to put our offspring in responsible homes ... and if it doesn't work out, I take them back no questions asked. The same argument you just made for "low value" animals could also be made for the animals that you choose not to cull. Sure, price makes it less likely, but if you're claim is that you can't control how an animal will be treated once you sell it, that claim would apply to ALL of the animals you produce ... so you might as well just "cull" them all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Do you think I have not done the same?
No. Your posts have given me the impression that you put zero value on animals that you can't sell for a high value. If that's not the case, you've done a really poor job of communicating otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
What you don't want to hear is that alot of those animals that you donate end up, eventually, in someone elses hands.
Why do you assume that I'm not involved with the animals that I sell or donate after the fact? Oh, I'm sorry is this the ambiguous global "YOU" that you're speaking to again? I'm confused because you've quoted me here. If it is the global "YOU" then well, that's pretty convenient. If not, you have no idea about my interactions with my customers and people that I donate animals to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
So why freak out when you nip some of that in the bud by culling via feeding at the outset?
Because killing for the sake of killing is wrong. I'd think that a snake would rather bounce from one home to another a couple times than be dead. To me, it seems like dead is always bad and pretty darn permanent. And it's not just about feeding, lets give that part up ... you stated above that if a animal wasn't available to feed to, some other means of "culling" would be ok with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Be careful. This is your emotions again. You don't know anything about me other than I have a different approach to my hobby than you. That one thing about me tells you nothing other than you and I have different philosophies. Thats all.
Yes, it is my emotions ... the ending of a life because it has "little value" is an emotional subject to me. You're right, the only thing that I know about you is that you have no problem justifying the killing of a healthy animal. Scary isn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I don't know. Remember, "you" means the typical, sell everyting you can produce to make a buck breeder. I am not attacking you personally.
But again, you did quote me. If you want to speak to the ambiguous YOU, please do it without quoting me directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
And I never said I was a good debator
But you did claim with an obvious sense of hubris that you were better than Wes ... do I need to find the post? ... hence attempting to turn this into some type of competition. All I'm saying is that if that's your goal, you're going to have to do a lot better than making stuff up. People kind of see through that BS pretty quick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats why I came here, to see what a larger forum thinks about this same topic.
Did you really not know that this is the response you would get? Give me a break. You trolled this one out to what? A dozen pages now? Your agenda is painfully obvious, but nice try.
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Originally Posted by ShawnC
Thats just mean.
Right. And killing healthy animals is what? Wistful?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Because it's snakes, you are getting emotinal and making it personal.
If you were talking about KILLING any animal because it wasn't worth much I'd be emotional. I'd hope that most people would. Killing is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
I can assure you that culling is a last resort for any of my animals
Now your story changes? For the last dozen pages you've been the proud "culler" saving the reptile hobby and giving animals a better existence with death ... now it's a last resort? Nice buckle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Do you know how hard it is to find a permahome for a ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python who'd like to eat your face?
I have no idea. But if you produced it, like it or not you're responsible for it's life and well being. If you can't handle that because it's "too difficult" to sell or keep ... then you should have thought about that before you paired those snakes up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not. fi it keeps from flooding the marketplace, thats even better.
But it's not about food. You're flailing now ...
When I asked you directly
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki
So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?
you replied
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way
and advocated killing in a way other than feeding (ie "some other way") as a perfectly acceptable option for low value snakes.
Your propensity to run back to the "feeding" schtick when you get in a jam is pretty transparent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnC
Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not.
If you were producing snakes for the sake of creating feeders (just like I produce rodents for the sake of being feeders) and feeding them to animals that will only eat snakes (just like my animals only eat rodents) and if you were feeding off ALL of your snakes (just like I feed off ALL of my rodents) I probably wouldn't have a problem with what you're doing. But what you are doing (not the ambiguous YOU, but you specifically) is breeding snakes for profit and killing the ones that are a pain in the rear to place into good homes, plain and simple ... and it's just wrong.
Blessings,
-adam
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltah!
I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money;) yeah, right.
When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.
I have purchased from Shawn, and he's a great guy! He actually cares a lot about his animals. I can guarantee he's not in it just for the money.
On the subject of culling.... well, talk to some old school herpers, and you'll see it was much more common than it is now. There are people that still do it, but don't talk about it because threads like this pop-up and they're made out to be soulless individuals.
I have mixed emotions on the subject, it can have its place. It's not like Shawn is indiscriminately killing off animals, these are integrate carpets, and when you're dealing with them and selling them the lines can get awfully muddied up. It's all too easy for someone to misrepresent such animals as "pure" species, which just further muddies up the bloodlines in the US, and with carpets, we're not getting new pure lines from Australia...
The designer carpets have their place for sure, but the problem lies when the non-visual morph siblings are produced, it's awfully hard without knowing the animals background to tell if they're a hybrid or not. That's the problem of selling them, how can you guarantee that they'll be honestly represented, or if they're sold as pet only, that they'll never be bred? You can't...that's where I understand Shawn and others' viewpoints.
I know, how is culling an animal better than taking those risks?.... but again, that's the emotional argument and not the logical argument.
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Re: Culling Healthy Animals
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You don't want honest debate...you want to proselytize your position.
Not true, I have been open an honest with everyone, and have heard a few points of view that gave me pause. Thats why I am here. You are proselytizing yours though, by not allowing debate without accusation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
And yet you try to tell us to take feelings OUT of the equation?
Exactly. Snake people, more than any other animals type I have ever worked with, seem to get all bent out of shape when you talk about culling. Which is funny, since they kill without thought when they feed their snakes rats and mice. I understand the difference between the two, and it boils down to pure emotion. I am sure you see this also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
What makes you think ~I~, or anyone else, needs to "feel better" about you killing off your unwanted animals?
Because everytime this has come up, over the last three years, it always boils down to some people wanting other people to not cull because they think it's a despicable practice. You may not care, but many others do, and get really charged about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING such a fate is the destiny of all "ugly" snakes.
ASSUMING this happens to those poor "ugly" animals.
ASSUMING this many snakes are affected in this manner each year. Do you have statistical proof to back it up? Or your own personal perceptions of the world around you? The argument that it's "just logical" doesn't hold water.
These assumptions are based on Logic. It's not unrealistic to make any of the statement I have made. They are not far fetched in the least when you think it through and don't allow emotion to get in the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING the fact that every breeder isn't killing off all their "ugly" or "cheap" snakes is the reason our hobby is in "the state" that it is in?
This isn't an assumption, it's my belief. I can call your belief that I am wrong an assumption as well. You and I disagree on this point. I think there are too many animals being produced every year. You don't. These are not assumption, they are opposing opinions. We can agree to disagree here. I think it's a huge problem that will come back to haunt us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[everyone who produces 100+ snakes must be wholesaling them to turn a quick buck?
I could be wrong here. Seriously. But I attend shows, was just at Daytona as a matter of fact...surf the web...and I see alot of really cheap ball pythons being sold in lots. Thats not a great sign thats it's not happening alot is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[How very fascist of you. How dare one life be given a chance simply because someone else's life might be hard?
OK. We are talking about animals here, not people. This makes no sense. Do you eat chicken? How very facist of you to decide to eat that chicken, it could live a happy life elsewhere...C'mon....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[So you blame the irresponsible buyers for your inability to respect life enough to give it a chance?
You are asking me if I feel it's right to make more animals suffer prolonged abuse so that 1 may live a good life? No i don't think it is. I don't think it' unreasonable to assume that 6 out of ten animals probably die before they should due to neglect, especially when they are throw away ten dollar snakes. I don't think it's cool for those 6 to suffer, for 4 to survive. I think it more fair to just allow them a swift, clean end to their life before it begins, than to send them out into the world and hope for the best, which I think is a cop out. Again, we disagree on a point, which is cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[ASSUMING folks who breed snakes don't already deal with the responsibility of their offspring. ASSUMING they don't kill them just because "it sucks" to do so? ((Personally, my moral compass isn't guided by "what sucks" and "what feels good"))
None of his is an assumption either. It's also my opinion. Why do you (meaning your side of the arguement) think its ethical to mass produce snakes that have a disadvantage at birth because they are less desirable, and will more than likely, at some point be kept in poor conditions that result in abandonment or death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
No, the answer is to work a little harder to sell them to folks that actually WANT them.
Which you are assuming everyone does. Thats not the case. Most don't. thats not an assumption, it's a fact. I go to the same shows, see the same vendors, and see the same online adds. I see the same bins, filled with dozens of babies for sale to anyone with wallet. For what pupose?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You didn't answer, you ASSUMED your perception of price vs. value is the same for everyone else as it is for you.
Again, not an assumption. The way people value things in this country, even snakes, is by putting a dollar value on it. Thats a fact, not an assumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
If that is your point of view, then isn't it unethical for you to be breeding at all???
Probably. But I love this hobby more than I dislike culling a few animals that need to be culled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
So instead...we should act like a bunch of freaks who kill whatever doesn't live up to our personal standards? That'll endear us to the masses.
Much more so than allowing them to escape into the everglades and cause massive, worldwide critisism yes. Sorry, but it's the truth. It sucks, but it's the truth. Balls are not Burms, I get that, but shelters are full of ball Pythons...you don't think that makes us look bad when any 12 year old can go buy one with no education, no caging, no nothing? Just ten bucks and a deli cup...thats it? That makes us look terrible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING there isn't a market for these animals.
This isn't an assumption. Normal baby male ball pythons are very, very cheap. Any cheaper, and they'd be free, which means there is no longer a market. Thats a bad thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[This right here seals your point of view and makes it crystal clear to anyone who hadn't already gotten it. These beautiful animals are nothing more than "an unfortunate side effect" because they're not what YOU wanted.
I challenge you to go onto youtube and watch some videos of people hatching their ball python clutches. Listen to the disappointment when they get a normal that hatches out "Aw man!" You turn this on me like I am unique?!? Ball Python people produce more spin off normals in the persuit of morphs than any other species by far. (except maybe corns) I have no problem with this persuit. I am just man enough to admit that when I do it, I create less than desirable animals as well, and I am willing to deal with them right away, rather than take the easy way out, and blast them into the market place for cheap and no longer be responsible, and make some cash to boot. I think I morally have the high ground here. You disagree. Thats cool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[Robin is lying just because you can't believe someone would care that much.
Sigh...Assumed...I never said she was lying. I said I didn't know her well enough to make that judgement, and I commended her if it were true. Most people don't take that time. It's a huge commitment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
[You really need to get out more.
Heh. OK. Insults are nice. Emotions...Your setting yourself back...be careful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
How many seriously expensive pure bred (and even expensive non-pure breds like "puggles") dogs end up in shelters and rescues? TONS.
Not many. Way more mutts or extremely common breds (hey like normal ball pythons!)than pure animals in shelters. And even some pure animals are so heavily bred that they are worse than mutts. How many $50 pit bulls ads can i find today in the paper....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
How many "free" rescued dogs live beautiful, happy lives? Most.
This is a Lie, or at the very least, a regional difference. Call any Shelter in this area, and they euthanize far more animals than are sucessfully adopted out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You're ASSUMING that "many" folks value life as little as they value dollars.
Again..not an assumption. The value of a life has everything to do with what you will pay for it. If I told you I had a turtle, and unless you paid me a $1000 ransom, I'd kill it...would you pay me $1000? No way...I guess you don't value a life at $1000...how about $100? $10? $1? You'd feel really bad if I killed it, but you don't really value it that much do you? These are animals, not people. Your are letting emotions affect your thought process again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
You can protest all you want, but you DID call Robin a liar. Maybe you've flipped around based on testimony that followed her statement, but you made it crystal clear that you did NOT believe her when she first posted.
Read the post. I said, "I don't know you well enough to call you a liar" that pretty much means I can't call her a Liar. I didn't flip one bit. My post has sat unchanged since I wrote it. You just don't like that I pointed out that her position was a very unique one. Most folks don't do what she does. Please read WHAT I write, not INTO what I write.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
That's the problem...you're ASSUMING that emotions should not be involved in the argument (even though you stated at the very beginning that they must inevitably be so) Electronics are NOT the same as animals and the analogy falls flat, at the very least.
Thats my points exactly. This topic gets so nuts because people bring unrealistic emotions. Most of you eat meat. You feed animals to other animals already, but once you talk about killing baby snakes, you freak out. Thats emotion. From outside the box, it's no different what you feed to what, or why.
As far as electronics being different, they are not at all if you take that emotion out of the equation. You already assign a dollar value to living things. I just proved that to you above. Remember the ransomed turtle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
Most of the folks here are truly passionate about the animals they care for...whether it is one, a handful, or hundreds. Passion and emotion cannot be separated. So, you're ASSUMING that folks are simply not buying your point of view (our judgment being affected) only because we're "too emotional".
Thats a crock of hoey. Oh I am sure there are some folks here who have real, emotional attachments to their animals in smaller numbers. But I dont' believe that the guys with hundreds of breeder animals "love them each in there special way" C'mon with that. You love them because you like working with them...and they make you some money. Lets be honest here. you insinuate that I am not passionate? I am just as deeply interested in the propogation of the species that I work with as you are. We just disagree on how to handle the offspring we both produce that are the spin offs of our breeding projects. I think it's better to cull some, you thinkit's best to sell them all. thats it. Thats what this whole arguement is about. Other than that, we are the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
The reason they don't (and WON'T) make sense is because LIFE has VALUE. A point YOU fail to grasp no matter how many times others have reiterated it.
Like the Turtle? You fail to grasp that you are a hypocrit. Chickens have value. So do cows. Fish have value. So do Deer, and Pigs...Do you eat any of those things? Rats and Mice have value. Buts thats OK right, because they are dying for a purpose. Well in the current common model of python reproduction, we take animals and breed them with no natural choice of mates (because it benefits us), we then set up optimal incubation setups, and assist hatch all the eggs so none die in the eggs (because it benefits us). Then, we take each animal, if it's really naturally fit or not (we dont really know, because we artificailly manipulated the whole process) and sell them (because we value their lives, but really because it benefit us). Read that a couple of times and let me know if the sarcasm isn't getting through. Please, please please be honest with yourself and get off your soap box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
Just go back and see how you defined "big breeder" earlier in the discussion. And how you described yourself.
Again, I was always taught to try and be humble. I breed a bunch of snakes out of my garage. I wouldn't call myself a big breeder..but I probably should be considered one yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
HALF?? HERE?? Show me who agrees with you. While some may have agreed on the principle that under the right circumstances snakes are as much a viable feeder-animal as others.....I dare say that is FAR from agreeing with anything you are saying here.
Go look. I have not said anything other than one thing, over andover. It's OK to cull your animals. It's ethically not any different than feeding your snakes feeder rodents. I gave you the resons why I cull, but thats not the point. The point is that ethically, it's a completely ethical practice as compared to everything else we do as hobbiests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
No...he said he'd rather lose a $300 phone than to lose a $20 ball python. Because LIFE is far more valuable than any electronic trinket, no matter how pricey.
Unless it's a turtle?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
WHO are these "tons" of people? And if no one ever talks about it, how can you ASSUME so many of us must be thinking it?
Like I said. I am not new to the hobby. I have had this discussion on the internet, and in person over the years with many different people. The breakdown is always about the same. This place hasn't been any different, though thee have been some good points made. I'd link you to some of the threads from years ago, but I am not sure that allowed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLC
ASSUMING your method is truly what is "best" for the hobby.
I think that it is (Opinion, not assumption). Thats why I brought it here. When you look at keeping numbers of less desirable animals down, I think thats a good thing. I wish I could continue to work on my projects without creating these animals, I really do. But since i can't, I think dealing with them right away is a good, long term solution, even if it's not the most fun.
S~
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