Price drops

the snake business revolves around four things; hype, desire, supply and demand.

the more people produce the 'common' types, the lower prices will become. people will drop out and as they do prices can come back up somewhat.

Lemme put it to ya this way... Im about to spend $4,500.00 on only 3 snakes.. Young, but of breeding size, and they are the high end morphs im looking to combine and produce. Im looking at 3 other high end balls which will probably total another 2 to 3 grand, but i can afford it.. I will have the proper housing and vetting. And i will still have less than 10 snakes. All of which will make some killer morphs and combos.. Any spiders i happen to hatch will not held back since im working on other and better morphs anyway.

I do hope the business picks back up, but im NOT going to be one of those breeders who relies on my snakes to feed myself and my son. While i can afford to increase my collection and hobby right now, im not going to let it get out of hand. Just in case the economy DOESNT pick back up.. Or worse yet... If the world or life as we know it happens to end in 3 years.. You just never know..
So eat, drink, breed, and be MERRY!!!

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Originally Posted by Draigess

Lemme put it to ya this way... Im about to spend $4,500.00 on only 3 snakes.. Young, but of breeding size, and they are the high end morphs im looking to combine and produce. Im looking at 3 other high end balls which will probably total another 2 to 3 grand, but i can afford it.. I will have the proper housing and vetting. And i will still have less than 10 snakes. All of which will make some killer morphs and combos.. Any spiders i happen to hatch will not held back since im working on other and better morphs anyway.

I do hope the business picks back up, but im NOT going to be one of those breeders who relies on my snakes to feed myself and my son. While i can afford to increase my collection and hobby right now, im not going to let it get out of hand. Just in case the economy DOESNT pick back up.. Or worse yet... If the world or life as we know it happens to end in 3 years.. You just never know..
So eat, drink, breed, and be MERRY!!!

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I do agree live for today you never know what tomm will bring all of us !

Know what bothers me?

The pyramid scheme at the heart of it. Breeders producing to sell to breeders. How many people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a pet-only snake?

It doesn't seem so bad with other reptiles, which are really easy to keep as pets and priced for the pet market. Beardies, leos, turtles, cresties... But snakes? It seems like the pet industry is not really ready to pay big bucks just to keep a snake as a pet.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Know what bothers me?

The pyramid scheme at the heart of it. Breeders producing to sell to breeders. How many people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a pet-only snake?

It doesn't seem so bad with other reptiles, which are really easy to keep as pets and priced for the pet market. Beardies, leos, turtles, cresties... But snakes? It seems like the pet industry is not really ready to pay big bucks just to keep a snake as a pet.

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not many

because in many aspects we are trained that snakes are evil and this has been going on for many many many years

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Originally Posted by nixer

not many

because in many aspects we are trained that snakes are evil and this has been going on for many many many years

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I'm scared of snakes I see outdoors unless I can visually identify them as harmless. I think everyone should be. Same with spiders, brightly colored animals, and leeches.

ok i will put it like this since this is all a big deal because of me. if anyone thinks because i choose to sell one of my snakes at a lower price means that i dont take care of them is more than welcome to come by our place and see our set up. i have devoted countless time and money to make sure all the animals i produce are 100% healthy. all my snakes normal up to my higher end stuff getts treated the same. i have a normal male that over the years i have probably a grand in. so yall can bash me all yall want. i really dont care take a look around prices are dropping thats just what happens when the economy is in the crapper. i am not the only person out there that is forced to drop their prices i have sold many spiders for 250 for a male but they just arent selling now. and weather you want to face the facts or not is up to you. its sad to see so many people turn on you so quick when someone is in a tight spot. i looked at everyone here as a family but thats shot to hell now. i am done with this childish thread if you dont like my prices or you feel they are to cheap dont buy from me but ask the people who have bought from me my snakes are solid and healthy. so grow up and i will see yall in the show scene.

I'm not telling people to not buy from you, in fact I considered it for a couple minutes and then decided that I'd rather have a Lesser.

I'm just saying that I think your prices are too low and that people won't see you as a potentially trustworthy person because of it. I mean you don't go to New York and buy a Rollex for 5 dollars and think that you actually bought a Rollex do you? When you sell things for too low of a cost people become wary.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

I'm not telling people to not buy from you, in fact I considered it for a couple minutes and then decided that I'd rather have a Lesser.

I'm just saying that I think your prices are too low and that people won't see you as a potentially trustworthy person because of it. I mean you don't go to New York and buy a Rollex for 5 dollars and think that you actually bought a Rollex do you? When you sell things for too low of a cost people become wary.

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well like i said i stand behind my animals 100% and anyone is more than welcome to come and see our facility.

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Originally Posted by dmaricle

well like i said i stand behind my animals 100% and anyone is more than welcome to come and see our facility.

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Well did you put all this in your thread, as well as the reason you're selling it so low, and offer pictures, vet information, etc to potential customers? I mean if you had this topic may well have never come up.

Personally I'm just staying here because... well I like where this has gone, all seven directions in fact.

Is this not a free country? WOW!!!!

Spiders (and Pinstripes) are without a "super" form. I for one, am shocked that pastels are cheaper than spiders and pinstripes... IMO it should be reversed, but as a small business owner, I would never, never, never have the nerve to tell someone they should raise THIER prices.. lol... it's truly laughable.

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Originally Posted by Jared

Is this not a free country? WOW!!!!

Spiders (and Pinstripes) are without a "super" form. I for one, am shocked that pastels are cheaper than spiders and pinstripes... IMO it should be reversed, but as a small business owner, I would never, never, never have the nerve to tell someone they should raise THIER prices.. lol... it's truly laughable.

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Pastels are older, het, and have been bred more, or I am fairly sure they are older.

Kind of like how albino prices used to be ridiculous and have dropped a lot, since they've been bred so much. But since they aren't visible when het their prices should be compared to supers and other recessives.

ok this has gone all out of wack. yall think this will hurt my sales lol my animals stand for them selves. i have not had one unsatisfied customer yet and will do every thing in my power to keep it that way. i do not feel what i did was wrong and there are tons of others pricing the same i am just pricing along side most other people. again i dont feel bad and i will sleep very well tonight while yall bicker back and forth. yes things maybe hard money wise but i feel that i am one of the luckiest guys alive i am married to the best woman in the world who is caring my first child i am 22 years old have a great job a house bigger than most people i know and a family that loves me. and everything i have came from hard work. so bash me all you want noone can get me down. and i mean no one. so yall have fun i am going to chill with my beautiful wife. and work on my little girls room. im out.

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Originally Posted by dmaricle

ok this has gone all out of wack. yall think this will hurt my sales lol my animals stand for them selves. i have not had one unsatisfied customer yet and will do every thing in my power to keep it that way. i do not feel what i did was wrong and there are tons of others pricing the same i am just pricing along side most other people. again i dont feel bad and i will sleep very well tonight while yall bicker back and forth. yes things maybe hard money wise but i feel that i am one of the luckiest guys alive i am married to the best woman in the world who is caring my first child i am 22 years old have a great job a house bigger than most people i know and a family that loves me. and everything i have came from hard work. so bash me all you want noone can get me down. and i mean no one. so yall have fun i am going to chill with my beautiful wife. and work on my little girls room. im out.

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Where is this bashing even coming from, no one has bashed you since your last post, in fact since your last post the entire topic has been almost completely off topic.

Where are you even seeing these things, or have you been drinking and found yourself on ten pages ago.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

It does relate though... Ever stop to wonder if some of the people selling off all their animals at such cheap prices right now are doing it because they believe the "end is ney" ?? Im sure there are lots of people out there doing alot of crazy things they will ultimately regret. Like selling off all their snakes at crazy low prices. Not everyone is doing it because of the economy.. trust me.. I know some people like this.

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Well i know a few breeders that have called me in the past week asking if i wanted a few snakes at unreal prices ! Will find out tom what i might pick up :)

Dylan: I didn't start this thread to bash you. I started it to express my opinions about pricing. Unfortunately it was your ad that was the catalyst. As far as I can recall, I never questioned the quality of your animals. I am sure you have fine animals that get the best care. Hopefully we all learn something from this thread. There are some very valuable opinions expressed here.

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I won't drop names but I am sure you can figure it out.

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Oh come on that just seems mean. And that's the first post.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Oh come on that just seems mean. Before the end of the first page we

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My choice of words changes nothing about the message. Could I have left that line out? Probably. But in the end it has very little to do with the thread.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

My choice of words changes nothing about the message. Could I have left that line out? Probably. But in the end it has very little to do with the thread.

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Yes it does. The first post sets the tone of the thread, it moved to outright aggression fairly quickly, probably because of your tone from the beginning that did single someone out.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Yes it does. The first post sets the tone of the thread, it moved to outright aggression fairly quickly, probably because of your tone from the beginning that did single someone out.

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Oh come on. Do you believe everyone so stupid that they can't read something, comprehend it and make an informed decision about intent?

This thread only went slightly "off-topic" and only for a short time.. There really was no bashing (as of yet). To keep it that way it needs to stay at a point where people are expressing their opinions and concerns about prices of herps going down dramatically in the last year.. Since there are many reasons why this could be happening. Different reasons for everyone. Every opinion and concern has (for the most part) stayed on-topic. In this (may i remind you) off-topic cafe.

I dont bash him for offering animals at such low prices. Considering his reasons.. Hopefully it will only give other breeders a chance to increase their collections and breeding options. Spiders make great combos and their potential is not fully known as of yet..

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Oh come on. Do you believe everyone so stupid that they can't read something, comprehend it and make an informed decision about intent?

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No I believe that is exactly what people do, and intent comes off different ways to different people. A minor change in how a sentence is stated turns it into outright hostility. Again your statement was only minorly aggressive, but it did single someone out, and the thread was working in a very negative direction.

actually i have seen it a hundred times someone lowers their price then some ppl get uptite about it and then you always have that person that says what if they are sick or whatever and it goes from there. cant we just accept that we cant buy at 100$ and charge 1000$ for anything? NO i have seen these same arguments at shows between big guys and little guys then the flaming and badmouthing starts from there and lucky this didnt progress to that and that was because it was taken off topic

Since no one is listening to a Super Moderator's polite request to start a new thread, I am locking the thread temporarily to split the off topic posts into their own threads.

You may not agree with what one of the staff requests, but when the staff makes a polite request, don't thumb your nose at them.

Thread is re-opened. Any off topic posts in this thread, after a mod has asked for them to cease will be deleted without notice.

The off topic split can be found here: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101400

Animals are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Between the economy being poor, I also think we're seeing deflation, especially with bps.

Prices have been steadily falling for some time now. I think there are probably some who are holding out on buying waiting for the price to come down even more. I know I am, I've been wanting a caramel for a while - not to breed, just to have one in my collection. I'm in no rush to get one, and I'll probably hold out until they're in the $500 range in a year or two. So there may be other people out there like me in a similar situation.

And there is also supply and demand. There are A LOT more spiders being produced right now. Lots of supply, not as much demand. I'd wager that most/many hobbyist breeders already have a spider or two and since there's no homozygous super, no point in really having more than a couple. And once most hobbyists have a spider (or any other morph that's in question), then next up are people who want them for pets.

I can see both sides of it. But at the same time, sometimes life is life and for whatever reason if snakes need to be moved ASAP, then you're going to do what it takes to move them out.

It seems like prices are only falling "online".. Those breeders who do not own their own store front, have a table at a regular, or especially once a year show, seem to be the ones sellling for so low.. Or the "hermit" breeders who trust no one & are afriad to come out of their house. (I know of a couple of these).. Even if you look at sites like ks.com or fauna, the exact same snakes are selling for very different prices.

I believe alot of it IS based on that persons financial situation right now OR the quality is low.. I believe location has alot to do with it as well..

The spider im holding in my profile pic is going for $400.00 as a yearling breeder male. If i do not buy him and only use him as a breeder but then give him back, he WILL sell for that amount.. My local breeder friends have not had many issues with selling their animals. The only financial issue they are having right now is on supplies and equipment since people are buying more of that online or at places like petco.. Which surprisingly enough, in my area seems to have lowered their prices on reptile supplies to match what my friends store sells them for..

I truly do think prices will at least stablize if not go back up. The new breeders need to expand their breeding plans and stop overproducing the same snakes once or twice a year. That in itself would help greatly.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

I truly do think prices will at least stablize if not go back up. The new breeders need to expand their breeding plans and stop overproducing the same snakes once or twice a year. That in itself would help greatly.

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I agree. The market is flooded with low quality co-doms.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

I agree. The market is flooded with low quality co-doms.

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Exactly why im getting the morphs im getting... To make combos.. dom/co-dom & recessive combos. Not just a bunch of co-doms that will not be worth much.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

I
I truly do think prices will at least stablize if not go back up.

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I think they'll stabilize. But prices won't go back up. Sure a really top notch pastel will still fetch some money, but on the whole, they're down here to say.

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The new breeders need to expand their breeding plans and stop overproducing the same snakes once or twice a year. That in itself would help greatly.

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And that's the catch-22. Many breeders can't afford new projects until they drop a lot in price. But by the time they can afford them and in a few years produce them, then often that morph is already in abundance.

If these animals are only kept for the joy of keeping, not for profit or to "pay for themselves," then does it really matter what prices do?

I mean, if you're not in it for the money, and I would guess that many who have posted in this thread have publicly stated that they do not breed for the money, then what possible difference can it make to you what the average price is?

And, if that price is inconsequential, of no importance because you do not breed to make money, then why, if you would be so kind as to explain to one of my limited faculties, is there so much complaining about prices?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If these animals are only kept for the joy of keeping, not for profit or to "pay for themselves," then does it really matter what prices do?

I mean, if you're not in it for the money, and I would guess that many who have posted in this thread have publicly stated that they do not breed for the money, then what possible difference can it make to you what the average price is?

And, if that price is inconsequential, of no importance because you do not breed to make money, then why, if you would be so kind as to explain to one of my limited faculties, is there so much complaining about prices?

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I think many (not necessarily saying those in this thread) saw BELs for $4k, Bees for $2.5k, etc and thought it'd be an easy buck to make not recognizing that others had the same idea so supply increased, and prices fell. Basically their get rich scheme failed.

Done all the get rich schemes fail in hobbies like this?

If you have a get rich quick scheme, so do a hundred other people. But when you have a pet project that you think will make something amazing that YOU want for yourself, then that is what will probably sell, but you don't want to sell it, thus the price is high on those items... and then some brainiacs decide they want to try to make it to sell it...

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Done all the get rich schemes fail in hobbies like this?

If you have a get rich quick scheme, so do a hundred other people. But when you have a pet project that you think will make something amazing that YOU want for yourself, then that is what will probably sell, but you don't want to sell it, thus the price is high on those items... and then some brainiacs decide they want to try to make it to sell it...

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Any chance of dumbing this down enough for me to understand your point?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If these animals are only kept for the joy of keeping, not for profit or to "pay for themselves," then does it really matter what prices do?

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Good point! :gj: I care because for me it is all about the joy of keeping AND making money with the hatchlings I create! (the ones I can successfully convince myself not to hold back that is....)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Any chance of dumbing this down enough for me to understand your point?

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If it is making money: People try to make it (to make the money)
Thus the price falls.

If it is your pet project (and not being made by the world at large): You don't sell it, people see pictures, people want it for themselves, the snake is seen as highly valuable.

If the snake is seen as highly valuable: People (the brainiacs I was talking about before) end up making it to get the money, thus the price falls :/

It's a viscous cycle.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

If it is making money: People try to make it (to make the money)
Thus the price falls.

If it is your pet project (and not being made by the world at large): You don't sell it, people see pictures, people want it for themselves, the snake is seen as highly valuable.

If the snake is seen as highly valuable: People (the brainiacs I was talking about before) end up making it to get the money, thus the price falls :/

It's a viscous cycle.

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Yeah, ummm....ok, thanks, I think.

I was just trying to explain it :P The original was pretty much a "thank you captain obvious" post :/

Thank God I don't breed.

I got an albino boa constrictor for 300 shipped.

Pretty cheap for that time.

He's just my pet.:cool:

Why do all the other highly priced collectors' pets, like parrots, remain relatively stable for decades, and why do even many of the other highly priced reptiles stay relatively stable for years, while ball python morphs seem to be the only market of its kind to average 40% price drops every year?

Also, prices will always drop as supply increases, but why do ball python morphs all drop down to the $50 - $100 range, which is cheaper than it costs to produce and care for them, even for a short period of time? There are answers to these questions, but I don't see a lot of people realizing or talking about them. All I see is BS propaganda and dogma about how "the supply is increased, so the prices fall, just like every other market". That doesn't answer the questions above, and the ball python market's pricing methods are farther from every other kind of markets methods than anything I can think of. Period.

I've been laid off for over a year, I have a hard time paying my mortgage sometimes, etc., etc., but I have never bottomed out any of my prices. The closest I came was one time, I had a week long free shipping sale on a group of mojaves. Do you know what I did, instead of ridiculously lowering my prices? I paid for a banner ad on this site, and paid for google advertising, and got more potential customers to my site, and thus, made more sales at decent prices, in turn, saving myself a bullet wound to my foot, and not having ANY negative effect on market prices.

The answers to both questions above have a one-word answer, imho. It's an adjective that describes certain people, and there are several that would fit. Wake the hell up, already.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Why do all the other highly priced collectors' pets, like parrots, remain relatively stable for decades, and why do even many of the other highly priced reptiles stay relatively stable for years, while ball python morphs seem to be the only market of its kind to average 40% price drops every year?

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because it takes quite a bit to get birds to breed and then there is the rearing of the young handfeeding, you dont get alot of eggs, and there isnt half as many bird breeders out there. plus they dont import alot

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

Basically their get rich scheme failed.

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NO, that's not it. It costs more to raise the parents, breed, feed , clean, start the babies, heat, etc than $130 per spider hatchling.

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

Think about it every week they have to feed everything they have and if they haver a ton of snakes whether they breed the rats or not it still will cost more for them in the long run to keep so a lot are dumping them !

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I didnt make it through this thread so I dont know if anyone else posted my response before.

But I did take note of this post and it stuck with me... and Jamie is actually the creator of this thread:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49580

Breeding animals that can produce 6-11 babies EACH and not accounting for the cost of feeding, housing, space and time required is irresponsible. Having too many animals and too high of a cost to maintain is not an excuse EVER for dumping animals at prices way below than they should be.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

I didnt make it through this thread so I dont know if anyone else posted my response before.

But I did take note of this post and it stuck with me... and Jamie is actually the creator of this thread:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49580

Breeding animals that can produce 6-11 babies EACH and not accounting for the cost of feeding, housing, space and time required is irresponsible. Having too many animals and too high of a cost to maintain is not an excuse EVER for dumping animals at prices way below than they should be.

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Who are you, or anyone else for that matter to decide what HIS prices "should" be? It's appalling that there are so many people that think it is okay to dictate to others how to run THIER business, or how to price THIER ball pythons. What country do we live in again??

To be honest, such statements REEK of greed IMO.

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Originally Posted by Jared

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter to decide what HIS prices "should" be? It's appalling that there are so many people that think it is okay to dictate to others how to run THIER business, or how to price THIER ball pythons. What country do we live in again??

To be honest, such statements REEK of greed IMO.

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Did I comment on his prices specifically or people that lower prices in general? Do you come out your face without knowledge of anything all the time or is this a special occasion we are witnessing?

We dont dictate anything. He can sell at what he wants. Market crashing is the end result.

You buy your dream house at $225,000 3 years ago. Everyone in your neighborhood starts foreclosing....tons of homes on the market for cheap. Guess what just happened to your dream house's value.

You own stock in Sprint. It's valued at $4 a share. Everyone decides Sprint sucks and starts dumping their shares. Your stock is now worthless.

Welcome to America.

P.S.
If you can't put 2+2 together, people dropping prices on *their(not thier btw)* BPs make your BPs' values drop. Doesnt matter to you if theyre just pets, but those with money invested in their businesses don't like to watch their product depreciate because someone can't afford to house what they knowingly produced and crash the market. Greed has nothing to do with it.

lol.. Your lack of business and economic knowledge is beyond obvious. Your "points" regarding the housing market and Wall Street actually make what my point would be. The market will dictate the price. If you think a snake, or stock, or home is priced well below what the price "should be", then fork up the cash and buy it.

If I own shares of Sprint, and the share price drops to half of what I paid for it.. what do I do??? Not what you would do, that's for sure.. I BUY MORE. The term is cost averaging, if you are going to "play" in the stock market, or any other market for that matter, I suggest you do a little research first, and have a strategy.

Seems like I must have touched on a sensitive point for you. Remember though, we are all entitled to our own opinions. You certainly don't have to agree with me, and spouting off over the internet with such non-sensical phrases as

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

"Do you come out your face without knowledge"

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do not prove your point, let alone make any sense whatsoever.

PS. People that make the type of grammatical mistakes that you made above should never point out simple typing errors like reversing the ei in their. lol :D:D

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

Did I comment on his prices specifically or people that lower prices in general? Do you come out your face without knowledge of anything all the time or is this a special occasion we are witnessing?

We dont dictate anything. He can sell at what he wants. Market crashing is the end result.

You buy your dream house at $225,000 3 years ago. Everyone in your neighborhood starts foreclosing....tons of homes on the market for cheap. Guess what just happened to your dream house's value.

You own stock in Sprint. It's valued at $4 a share. Everyone decides Sprint sucks and starts dumping their shares. Your stock is now worthless.

Welcome to America.

P.S.
If you can't put 2+2 together, people dropping prices on *their(not thier btw)* BPs make your BPs' values drop. Doesnt matter to you if theyre just pets, but those with money invested in their businesses don't like to watch their product depreciate because someone can't afford to house what they knowingly produced and crash the market. Greed has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

NO, that's not it. It costs more to raise the parents, breed, feed , clean, start the babies, heat, etc than $130 per spider hatchling.

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the operating costs of the business are high period in this business, but at the same time if they are not selling for the price that everyone else is charging then those costs increase the longer you hold on to every snake.

when you cannot afford to increase your own operating cost then what should you do?
i know someone is going to come in here and say they would keep them all if they dont sell, but my response to that will be is then you are not producing that many animals. no one can afford to hold back multiple clutches every year and the reason would be the operating costs.

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Originally Posted by nixer

the operating costs of the business are high period in this business, but at the same time if they are not selling for the price that everyone else is charging then those costs increase the longer you hold on to every snake.

when you cannot afford to increase your own operating cost then what should you do?
i know someone is going to come in here and say they would keep them all if they dont sell, but my response to that will be is then you are not producing that many animals. no one can afford to hold back multiple clutches every year and the reason would be the operating costs.

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Actually the longer you keep it, the more $$ you can sell it for. Hold on to a female spider for 2 years and its worth almost $800...thats a far cry from a $130 hatchling.

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Originally Posted by nixer

because it takes quite a bit to get birds to breed and then there is the rearing of the young handfeeding, you dont get alot of eggs, and there isnt half as many bird breeders out there. plus they dont import alot

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I raise and hand feed my baby ball pythons. Plus, with over 20 breeders, I only got two clutches this year. Plus, how many spiders are imported each year? Less than there are parrots. Plus, there are hundreds of times more people buying multiple ball python morphs than there are buying parrots. Plus, people who buy ball pythons will typically buy several to dozens to hundreds of ball pythons, where people who by parrots, might by 2-3, with a majority probably only having a single parrot.

What about the other reptiles that hold their value? What about the bottoming out prices on ball morphs typically being lower than cost?

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Actually the longer you keep it, the more $$ you can sell it for. Hold on to a female spider for 2 years and its worth almost $800...thats a far cry from a $130 hatchling.

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sure but you missed the point. say you produced 20 spiders this year and none sold. it takes money to feed them all. and when it comes to your family and everything else you should be picking your family and thats what the op did.