Pine shavings.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'd start a poll, but that's too much effort.

I'm wondering how many of you No pine users also go along with the world being flat.

You can just post yes if you do and no if you don't, no need for explanations, just a matter of curiosity.

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There is a poll...:gj:

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Wait, what? The world is flat?! :O

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I'm just looking for correlations in informational accuracy in regards to specifics.

Pine is the bane of all snakes. therefore, to those of this postulation, the world must also be flat.

Or such is my guess, which may be in error. I suppose we could all be the dream of a butterfly...

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Pine is the bane of all snakes. therefore, to those of this postulation, the world must also be flat.

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nice analogy. kinda like "those who don't have a document to prove something know it is false. therefore, to those of this population, if you have experience but no documentation, you must be a liar! NO ONE can have ACTUAL experience, right? i mean, if a lab doesn't publish a paper, certainly it's not true.... why else would people be doing a test in SC to see if burmese pythons can survive the winter? obviously the info is inaccurate; the snakes will live and be fine. this isn't cruel, is it? we KNOW they can live in 20f temps because people SAY they can't!! wow!!!

kiln dried pine does contain sap that is not dry. i've experienced 2 ri's and 1 impaction from pine bedding. i haven't used it for several years, and will never use it again. 2 ri's came about in established habitats with no variable changes other than bedding (paper to pine, cosmetic reasons). the impaction was a result of the bedding, according to biopsy.

sorry, the encyclopedia britannica did not publish my experiences.... :(

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Originally Posted by Ben Biscy

nice analogy. kinda like "those who don't have a document to prove something know it is false. therefore, to those of this population, if you have experience but no documentation, you must be a liar! NO ONE can have ACTUAL experience, right? i mean, if a lab doesn't publish a paper, certainly it's not true.... why else would people be doing a test in SC to see if burmese pythons can survive the winter? obviously the info is inaccurate; the snakes will live and be fine. this isn't cruel, is it? we KNOW they can live in 20f temps because people SAY they can't!! wow!!!

kiln dried pine does contain sap that is not dry. i've experienced 2 ri's and 1 impaction from pine bedding. i haven't used it for several years, and will never use it again. 2 ri's came about in established habitats with no variable changes other than bedding (paper to pine, cosmetic reasons). the impaction was a result of the bedding, according to biopsy.

sorry, the encyclopedia britannica did not publish my experiences.... :(

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How did your arrive at your RI conclusion? Was there an necropsy done or are you just guessing that it was an RI?

Seems like it's more your fault than the bedding's if your snake is feed on it and eats it with his meal. Seems pretty easy to me to either feed in another container or put down something to prevent the ingestion of bedding.

Also, a snake who eats his bedding is one who has weeded itself out of the genepool and with reason. If you're not smart enough to know how to eat on the ground, you should not be eating on the ground.

So, are we just supposing here or are there actual facts in the mix?

There is ever very little formal research done when it comes to the do's and don'ts of reptile keeping. What we teach as successful husbandry practices today is because of decades of trial and error by people like Bob Clark and Dave/Tracy Barker that were in on the ground floor of keeping pythons.

I know that Pine, Cedar and any aromatic ever green sap is a natural irritation to snakes skin. We know this because Woodpeckers and other wood boring birds have been proven that they use it to ward off snakes in the wild. The fact that its dried doesn't mean the sap is gone it just means that its dry. It would stand to reason that if brief exposure to this sap is enough to ward off reptiles then a prolonged exposure to even the dried could possibly have an adverse effect on the animals.

Is this proven over many different study's? No not even close..They way I see it better safe than sorry. You might could keep 200 animals on pine for two years and never have a problem. And then you might only lose one animal. To me its just not worth the risk .

Try here:
http://www.ratfanclub.org/pine&cdr.html

I realize it is posted by the Rat Fan Club, but it is an interesting read. Of course, the book itself also appears old. Still, form your own opinions about it.

My grandfather is a woodworker and has been for a long time. I remember reading in one of his magazines about toxic woods. So, I decided to look online for the list of woods and thier effects on people. Mind you, these are the effects on people not reptiles or animals. I don't see pine on it any where or cedar for that matter. The list is interesting though.

Here is the list:
http://www.mimf.com/archives/toxic.htm

Definitely not. Pine shavings can be toxic and oils from it can kill your snake. I recommend using either Cypress Mulch, Aspen Bedding, or Eco Earth. Those are great substrates for Ball pythons. I use Cypress Mulch for my BPs, and I've used Aspen on them before. Those are the best substrates to use for BPs, and here are some that you should never use:
-Soils
-Sands
-Pine
-Cedar
-Wood shavings
-Bark chips

Those substrates are not the best for Ball pythons. Sands and soils can get the snake impacted, Pine and Cedar are toxic, Wood shavings can injure your snake, and Bark chips can get your snake impacted if swallowed.

Personally I use Aspen or Newspaper. On the other hand, I've known some people who have been breeding snakes for decades that use pine. I think the 'Toxicity of pine' has been overblown. I guess it kind of makes sense, pine resin contains terpenes and other aromatic resins that could be bad in their concentrated form, but I don't know a single study proving that pine shavings are bad for snakes or even rodents.

I should also point out that the odor of pine is caused by molecules of the volatile oils in the wood. If the oils were gone, it would no longer have that fresh, piney smell. So there's no such thing as pine that has an odor but no volatile oils in it.

Newspaper is cheaper, safer, and a lot less messy. I gave up on using particulate substrates when I realized how much snakes pee (spot-cleaning=icky), and how much more expensive they were. Newspaper poses no hazard of ingestion, can be gotten for free if you talk to some delivery people, and lets you keep the bins odor-free.