Cinnamon/Black Pastel

Like most older morphs I think there is problems due to the fact that there was a rush to breed these animals. Putting them with any normal you could get your hands on to produce more to maximize profit. Part of this is needed so you didn't go broke back then when you were spending several thousand dollars on one snake with one gene behind it. If you didn't mass produce you would have gone broke very quickly. Now it seems that most breeders focus there efforts on nice looking normals or combo morphs. There is definate problems with some pastels(cinnamon,black,lemon,graziani,etc.). You can still see this in combo breeding today. Why is it that you can see several lemon blast or bees, that just are not as nice clean looking as others. It is time as breeders we decide to attempt to produce with the best possible appearance. I have spent alot more on animals that look better than buy cheap just to say I have this or that. My 2 cents

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snake Daddy Reptiles

There are a few difference in the black pastels and cinnamon pastels.

One of the differences is a subtle difference in color. The black pastels are a very deep brown to the point of black with high gold. The cinny pastels are a deep dark burnt brown with a faded gold. Now obviously this can vary slightly from snake to snake.

Both pastels can produce a super form of a total black python, but when you bring a normal pastel into the lines it changes it up. Pastel x cinny will get you a pewter. Black pastel x pastel will get you a black pewter. Carrying it further...
Pewter x Pewter will produce a sterling. Black pewter x black pewter will get you a silver streak. Comparing a silver streak to a sterling there is a considerable (and almost always) different type of pattern.



Definately not the same snake. Similar... but not the same.

---

So what do you get with black pewter x pewter?? And when black x cinni, what super do you get if they make the same super? And what about the ones that arent supers? What if the breeder can't tell the difference between black or cinnis in that clutch and named the blacks cinnis and the cinnis blacks, or named all of them just one name and sell them to the market? Don't you guys think that might have been done already?

Im no expert and most experts say they are different. Me I think they are the same like brothers. Not exactly the same but the same bloodline. Come on guys, even twins have differences if you wanna look at it that way...Now a spider is surely a different morph. So is a pinstripe :)
Mojaves, lessers, butters, they are like cousins. I consider them in the same family of looks. Nothing dramatic about their differences. But I can tell the mojave is different from the butter.

ive seen both cinnies and black pastels look like each other. the better question would be is what if neither actually is a super but both carry another gene that creates the all one color snake

if they look the same and create same kind of supers then that should tell you they are the same kind. If bred together and create a super than that should tell you even more.. But if they creat different supers then you can say they are different.. They both make black snake!! They both look the same!! Don't force them to be different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t-Roy

if they look the same and create same kind of supers then that should tell you they are the same kind.

---

The operative word here being "IF". In most of the cases that are discussed, the supers aren't identical - they're still supers though because they mutated alleles reside on the same locus.

Really, at the end of the day, we're banging around in the dark because we haven't got a clue as to what the BP genome map looks like. As long as we insist on cataloging morphs based on caveman style observations, there can never be a positive determination.

My opinion?

BP Breeding is just like any other profitable organization.

If you can convince enough suckers something is different to make money off the you will. This point is made pretty obvious by all the 'this snake is the same as this snake' threads.

And trust me, there are plenty of suckers out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snake Daddy Reptiles

There are a few difference in the black pastels and cinnamon pastels.

One of the differences is a subtle difference in color. The black pastels are a very deep brown to the point of black with high gold. The cinny pastels are a deep dark burnt brown with a faded gold. Now obviously this can vary slightly from snake to snake.

Both pastels can produce a super form of a total black python, but when you bring a normal pastel into the lines it changes it up. Pastel x cinny will get you a pewter. Black pastel x pastel will get you a black pewter. Carrying it further...
Pewter x Pewter will produce a sterling. Black pewter x black pewter will get you a silver streak. Comparing a silver streak to a sterling there is a considerable (and almost always) different type of pattern.

Furthermore, black pastels have had bad genes past on to a lot of them due to early line breeding (similar the the "wobble" spiders from the nerd line). Mishapen heads, upturned nostrils and mouths, and facial deformities are common in them.

Definately not the same snake. Similar... but not the same.

---

if i'm not mistaken,isnt a silver streak or sterling, a super pastel and either a black pastel or cinnie,and a silver bullet,a super cinnie/black and pastel?..could be wrong...but i am sure it has been shown both can be made with either the black or the cinnie..to me,they do the same thing over all,and i really dont care for the black pastel,though i have read with a black x cinnie the super doesnt have the same deformities

It's impossible to know without ADN if they are the same gene or not, or if they reside on the same loci.

They could be on 2 different loci, and still make a super all black when the 2 gene are present on an animal.

To have a super black snake (or brown), you don't need both gene to be on the same loci.

But that doesn't matter to me. The fact that together they produce the same type of animal, that the look is the same, and that the single allele can look one or the other, that mean they should be called the same.

I think what's important here is WHAT THEY DO and not WHERE THEY COME FROM or WHAT THEY ARE.

I don't care where they come from, but only what they can do since you can do nothing about it other than making speculation.

I was under the impression they were one in the same because they can produce the same combos. But after reading through this thread I think they are different, at the very least in color/pattern. They both appear to have their own distinct look, IMO. Though they can look very similar sometimes. But I agree with Watever, what they do, is more important than what they are.

The supers do not look the same. Black pastel supers are black and cinny supers are brown.

With any morph you are gonna get variations. I have seen adult pastels that look like normals but yet they are not. Good examples of each morph should have noticeable differences. If you look at the hunter's guide it will point out the specific differences. In my experience they age differently and affect combos differently. Yes they are some that look like the other but IMO they are not good examples of the morphs, which we see all the time. The normals used to produce a morph have influence in the outcome of the babies so that has alot to do with it too.

Here are a pic of two adults side by side and I dont think there is any mistaking the two.
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...etsBlackie.jpg