Why not rear-fanged colubrids?

Agreed, however, the lawmakers are not making that destinction, they just see "rear-fanged" and freak out now.....at least in FL.

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Originally Posted by ThyTempest

I think that there really is just no understanding for the majority of the population. If rear fanged colubrids that may or may not produce a relatively minor, save for severe allergic reaction to very few cases, are considered venomous, then hornets, wasps, bees, etc are all venomous too, yet we dont see people calling out all the beekeepers.

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If you were to get a bad enough bite from a hognose, the reaction you get would have little to do with allegies.

You would "suffer" from the by-product of their venom - namely toxins that affect blood coagulation - the other toxins that affect blood pressure would likely not be noticed by a human.

Hognoses are technically considered venomous, just as garter snakes and most other colubrids are technically venomous. If you get bit bad enough, you will see mild effects from the toxins in the venom - it has nothing to do with an allergic reaction.

If people are worried about a ban, then the key to avoiding the ban is proper education as to what the risks, if any, are. Again, if you receive a bad enough bite from a heterodon, you will exhibit symptoms that are by-products of the toxins in the venom. The fact is that those toxins are not life threatening.

None of this is news - Bryan Grieg Fry openly discusses the toxicity of colubrid venom on his site and his forum. The fact is that all colubrids, with the exception of lampropeltis, pituophis, pantherophis and their immediate relatives, are technically venomous.

Hmm, i think this is like saying all cars are deadly so lets ban cars. Some are more deadly than others because of safty issues and how they are built (lack of air bags, seat restraints, etc.), so why not ban them all for general safty? Or how all SUV's guzzle gas. There is a stigma put on them that makes everyone despise them regarless of safty or efficiency. It's the same with these animals. I'm sure we've all seen dogs (i'm talkin big aggressive dogs like Akitas, Rottweilers, etc) who are the best animals ever. But because the stigma that is put on the breed they are thought of as a 'bad' breed.
The same applies to the word 'venom' and 'fang'. Without true knowlege and understanding of the species, venom, and delivery system readily available people are turned off by the species. Sadly, there are no readily available vemon studies of a heterodon, and therefore it cannot be generally ruled out as a venemous or non-venemous herp. That said they are probably some of the best snakes i have ever owned. Since i have no experience with many of these highly toxic rear fanged snakes i cannot agree nor disagree with the previous statements. But, i can say that i have not seen any written sorce that places them in either a docile or aggressive species, and since i can't find it neither will any lawmakers. Especially since lawmakers don't care about anything that does not directly affect them.
In my opinion a Green Tree Python could inflict more bodily harm to a person than most of these 'rear-fanged' venemoids ever could. But, i have seen many pictures that show just how far these 'rear-fanged' snakes can get their fangs out. It seems like they could easily bite any human being, yet we only have one reported case of a boomslang killing a person, and one reported case of a 'reaction of unknown cause' from a hognose bite.
Anyone who has more than 1 snake will agree, they all have different personalities. It's up to the handler to be knowlegable and careful, prepared for all circumstances.
Now, back to the point... Why are rear fanged not concidered venemoids in most forums? Well, because there are few reported cases of any rear-fanged snakes ever harming a human being, they can be free-handled without much problem, and there are few laws restricting them. Even a novice handler and pick up a hognose and learn to be a very good coulibrid handler. BUT, that same person cannot pick up a rattlesnake and expect the same reaction. Hence why some idiots put rattlesnakes in their mouth :rofl: and they deserve what they get. :colbert:
Anyway, my personal opinion, and i could be wrong, is that a lack of education, understanding, and readily available resorces explaining rear-fanged venemoids puts lawmakers on edge and just want to ban everything all together. Any true HOT keeper would deny any hognose of being a venemoid. And any newbie herper would tell all their friends their hognose in 'poisonous' :P

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Originally Posted by whytepizza

Hmm, i think this is like saying all cars are deadly so lets ban cars. Some are more deadly than others because of safty issues and how they are built (lack of air bags, seat restraints, etc.), so why not ban them all for general safty? Or how all SUV's guzzle gas. There is a stigma put on them that makes everyone despise them regarless of safty or efficiency. It's the same with these animals. I'm sure we've all seen dogs (i'm talkin big aggressive dogs like Akitas, Rottweilers, etc) who are the best animals ever. But because the stigma that is put on the breed they are thought of as a 'bad' breed.
The same applies to the word 'venom' and 'fang'. Without true knowlege and understanding of the species, venom, and delivery system readily available people are turned off by the species. Sadly, there are no readily available vemon studies of a heterodon, and therefore it cannot be generally ruled out as a venemous or non-venemous herp. That said they are probably some of the best snakes i have ever owned. Since i have no experience with many of these highly toxic rear fanged snakes i cannot agree nor disagree with the previous statements. But, i can say that i have not seen any written sorce that places them in either a docile or aggressive species, and since i can't find it neither will any lawmakers. Especially since lawmakers don't care about anything that does not directly affect them.
In my opinion a Green Tree Python could inflict more bodily harm to a person than most of these 'rear-fanged' venemoids ever could. But, i have seen many pictures that show just how far these 'rear-fanged' snakes can get their fangs out. It seems like they could easily bite any human being, yet we only have one reported case of a boomslang killing a person, and one reported case of a 'reaction of unknown cause' from a hognose bite.
Anyone who has more than 1 snake will agree, they all have different personalities. It's up to the handler to be knowlegable and careful, prepared for all circumstances.
Now, back to the point... Why are rear fanged not concidered venemoids in most forums? Well, because there are few reported cases of any rear-fanged snakes ever harming a human being, they can be free-handled without much problem, and there are few laws restricting them. Even a novice handler and pick up a hognose and learn to be a very good coulibrid handler. BUT, that same person cannot pick up a rattlesnake and expect the same reaction. Hence why some idiots put rattlesnakes in their mouth :rofl: and they deserve what they get. :colbert:
Anyway, my personal opinion, and i could be wrong, is that a lack of education, understanding, and readily available resorces explaining rear-fanged venemoids puts lawmakers on edge and just want to ban everything all together. Any true HOT keeper would deny any hognose of being a venemoid. And any newbie herper would tell all their friends their hognose in 'poisonous' :P

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Venemoid - A venomoid is a snake that has ungone a surgical procedure to remove or inhibit the production of venom. Is this what you meant?

There have been studies on heterodon venom, and the toxic components have been identified. They are venomous - it's been verified - there are no intelligent or valid aguments against this fact.

But the fact also remains that they are harmless to humans.

Regarding confirmed deaths from rear-fanged colubrids....... ..There have been documented deaths from the bites of Dispholidus and Thelatornis. Thrasops have the exact same venom as Dispholidus.....so infer from that what you will............

Philodryas have caused deaths, as have Rhabdophis. There are others who have been identified as having the potential, under the right circumstances, to be considered lethal.

Proposed bans can be logically turned back if people take the time to actually research and educate others on the argument. Again - all colubrids, with the exception of the pits, lampropeltis and pantherophis (et al) produce venom. This is not open for debate - it is a fact. Arguing that reactions to hognose bites are from "allergies" is misleading and leads to further confusion.

.....FWIW, in forums where people discuss the nature of venom, the evolution of venom and it's effects, the components of rear-fanged snake venom (and colubrids in general) are compared to those of the vipers and elapids. It's the delivery system that mutes the threat, not the toxicity or complexity of the venom.

Again, properly defining the potential threats of some of the more potentially dangerous animals will go farther in ensuring that we can keep our heterodon and other harmless (but yes - venomous) rear fanged colubrids in the future. Making blanket statements that, with the exception of Dispholidus, rear fangs are harmless, may result in someone being killed. In the long run, this is an even greater threat to our hobby.

The info is out there. We can classify some opisthoglyphs as "hots", some as "warm" and some as "cold". But first we have discuss facts - not myths.

We largely create our own problems in this hobby. We do a bad job of policing each other and in the end, all of us get hurt. Promoting that all opisthoglyphs are all harmless and can be safely freehandled is a perfect example of this.

Hognose Snakes are probably the tamest snakes ever in captivity (maybe more tame than BPs). In general they won't bite (only as a feeding response which any snake can do), and getting bitten by one is very rare and takes lots of talent. If the Hognose snake is officially considered venomous, there should be a footnote saying that it's very unlikely to get bitten by one.

Though this doesn't say much, I've had my WHS for almost a year and he hasn't even gotten close to accidently biting me even during feeding (my KSB did twice though, but she is irrelevant since she's not rear-fanged).

P.S. Has anyone ever been bitten by a Western Hognose snake besides for a feeding error? And how many people do you think have been bitten by a WHS?
Also one more thing: I might have said "you" in this post but I'm not talking to anyone in particular.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Venemoid - A venomoid is a snake that has ungone a surgical procedure to remove or inhibit the production of venom. Is this what you meant?

There have been studies on heterodon venom, and the toxic components have been identified. They are venomous - it's been verified - there are no intelligent or valid aguments against this fact.

But the fact also remains that they are harmless to humans.

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Did they find out if the WHS produces its own venom or if its from the toads they eat in the wild? If they don't produce their own venom, that would mean that captive-bred Hognose snakes are even less of a threat.

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Originally Posted by Onua Nuva

Hognose Snakes are probably the tamest snakes ever in captivity (maybe more tame than BPs). In general they won't bite (only as a feeding response which any snake can do), and getting bitten by one is very rare and takes lots of talent. If the Hognose snake is officially considered venomous, there should be a footnote saying that it's very unlikely to get bitten by one.

Though this doesn't say much, I've had my WHS for almost a year and he hasn't even gotten close to accidently biting me even during feeding (my KSB did twice though, but she is irrelevant since she's not rear-fanged).

P.S. Has anyone ever been bitten by a Western Hognose snake besides for a feeding error? And how many people do you think have been bitten by a WHS?
Also one more thing: I might have said "you" in this post but I'm not talking to anyone in particular.

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Ryan:

I've only kept westerns/mexicans. The only time I've been bitten was during a feeding strike.

Nascius/Kennerlyi use other means to defend themselves with the extent of aggression being diplay only.

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Originally Posted by Onua Nuva

Did they find out if the WHS produces its own venom or if its from the toads they eat in the wild? If they don't produce their own venom, that would mean that captive-bred Hognose snakes are even less of a threat.

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From what has been published, Rhabdophis are the only toad eaters I know of that are actually venomous and poisonous. However, keep in mind that in the case of Rhabdophis, the toad poison is stored in glands on the neck of the snake while the venom is still in stored in the actual venom glands and "injected" during a bite.

Studies on heterodon venom have revealed that it is comprised of standard snake toxin families.

Poison dart frogs (dendrobates) often come up as an example when discussing harvesting organic molecules from food sources to produce toxins. Hoggies make their venom in dedicated protein secreting glands - totally different toxin types and production mechanisms.

Keep in mind that there is a distinction between the compounds used by animals and plants as chemical defenses against ingestion by a predator (toads/frogs). These are simple chemical compounds which is in contrast to the more specific and complex multi-protein venoms utilized by snakes.

Meant to add that I had no reaction to the feeding strike I received.

Your posts have been read, Skip.