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boas and ibd

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  • 10-23-2008, 05:05 PM
    JimiSnakes
    Re: boas and ibd
    Merck Manual on aerosolized secretions:
    Quote:

    Aerosolized pathogens inhaled into the lower airways as microparticles include Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Legionella sp, and the influenza virus. M. tuberculosis and the influenza virus are transmitted via aerosolized secretions produced by coughing. Although most cases of pneumococcal pneumonia are acquired by aspiration, in rare cases, especially in an epidemic, the organism is inhaled. Legionella infection is not transmitted from person to person, but rather, is acquired by inhaling infected aerosols from a waterborne source (eg, from air conditioners or shower heads). Waterborne organisms may also be introduced into the lower airways by instrumentation or delivered by small-particle aerosols from a contaminated reservoir nebulizer used with ventilation equipment.
    So, if IBD is "airborne" this is not the same as breathing the same air. They would have to be housed together, like said I said above.
  • 10-23-2008, 05:09 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim020cricket View Post
    Who's theory is this? Every vet I've talked to say that IBD is strictly contagious to fluids passing to and fro other snakes. Which means- Mites, feces, or sex.

    Both Jacobson and the document Ohyeahnow linked to discuss this theory. I believe BW did too - no?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim020cricket
    Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:


    Considered is the keyword there. It's also been considered that IBD originated from Green Burms too. That it was passed to and fro with Boas being housed with Burms back in the day.

    Jimi - whether it came from burms or boas - dunno and don't care. The difference is that boas can carry it and remain asymptomatic.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim020cricket
    I'm guessing the only reason a test is done is because something is wrong, right? I'm not going to sacrifice a completely healthy snake to be tested. Would you? Thus, 100% of those tested had problems to begin with, showing signs of IBD before death.

    Correct - plus the test isn't 100%. You biopsy the liver - no inclusion cells. But what about the gall bladder? The kidney? How far do you go? There is still no 100% reliable method without a necropsy.

    A far as the percentages go - I have no idea what symptoms the snakes in the study were showing. We're talking about researchers trying to attempt to pin down an infection rate...........so I would hope that they did not just test animals that were showing neurological disorders......

    The stats for the pythons (out of memory) showed low to zero postmortem results..........what can we glean from that compared to the boa data?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jimi020cricket
    Can you name any? I know of 2 people who've had IBD in their collection right off hand. One of those is heresay, the other (BWSmith) was very public about his problems and still has a few babies he had during this whole dilemma and is most probably the most educated person about this topic I know. He had live biopsies done on his whole collection and had to put down the majority of that collection. He still has a few remaining boas that were at his house during his breakout.

    I don't know that we could consider that he got them from a reputable breeder. I think we can agree on his husbandry skills, however.

    Yes, I can name other people.............will I list the names here? Of course not. I can name python and even a colubrid breeder who refuse to get into boas until more is known about the disease.
  • 10-23-2008, 05:14 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim020cricket View Post
    I'm also going to go and say that I know many large scale boa breeders who've had collections for longer than I've most likely been alive.
    Here's a nice write up on Pete Kahl's site, probably the world's largest boa breeder:


    You have symptoms in your collection? Where did you acquire the boas? How old were they? What were your quarantine procedures? Did you ever have any breakout of mites in your collection? Why would you use (even if disinfected with 9 tons of bleach) a rack that may have ha a "airborne" infected snake in it at any given time for any other snake?

    1. I have symptoms in my collection. Whether it's IBD or not remains to be seen............

    2. Until I know what I've got - I'm not discussing the name of the breeder. I'd give you the same courtesy.

    3. The boas were acquired about 5 years ago they were about 11 months old at the time. My last python was acquired 16 months ago.

    4. The symptoms came after the boas were moved.

    5. No mites.

    Where are you going with this Jimi?
  • 10-23-2008, 05:31 PM
    JimiSnakes
    Re: boas and ibd
    I'm just trying to point out that science is as flawed as it is accurate. I guess I take it to heart when someone says or inadvertently says "I won't buy boas, they have IBD" I take a little offense to it, ok a LOT. Out of the how many of millions of boas are sold a year or the how many of thousands or more people on the internet, how many have actually had a proven outbreak of IBD? That's a pretty low percentage. Probably as low as the pythons that have passed IBD into collections. I'll bet they are pretty close in percentages. How many large scale breeders breed BOTH pythons and boas in the same building? hmmm...quite a few.

    You're right on one thing though, no need for name dropping. I do respect that 100%. BUT to say that buying boas is a risk for bringing IBD into your collection is biased and wrong. ANY SNAKE CAN BRING IBD INTO YOUR COLLECTION. Period.
  • 10-23-2008, 05:38 PM
    JimiSnakes
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    4. The symptoms came after the boas were moved.

    How long after you acquired the pythons did the symptoms arrive?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    Where are you going with this Jimi?

    I'm slowly getting there... patience mano
  • 10-23-2008, 05:39 PM
    starmom
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim020cricket View Post
    ...BUT to say that buying boas is a risk for bringing IBD into your collection is biased and wrong. ANY SNAKE CAN BRING IBD INTO YOUR COLLECTION. Period.

    Agreed :gj:

    I think, skiploder, that you might be biased right now given the drama of what you are experiencing; a drama, I might add, that has not been proved out even after testing...

    I sincerely hope that every other test you have performed on your snakes comes back negative as well :)
  • 10-23-2008, 05:40 PM
    JimiSnakes
    Re: boas and ibd
    I think this is another good point too...

    Quote:

    Pythons, although their symptoms may be somewhat less, are just as affected as boas. There are asymptomatic carriers, so the fact that a boa or python within an infected collection does not show signs of the illness should not be taken to mean that it is immune to it. Boas are most associated with being asymptomatic carriers.
    Most associated, not only associated
    Quote:

    Signs of infection in boas include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis.
    Weight loss is a factor, but not the only factor. I've also heard of mouth rot being a good first indicator.
  • 10-23-2008, 05:45 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by starmom View Post
    Agreed :gj:

    I think, skiploder, that you might be biased right now given the drama of what you are experiencing; a drama, I might add, that has not been proved out even after testing...

    I sincerely hope that every other test you have performed on your snakes comes back negative as well :)

    I'm extremely biased. I did everything I was supposed to do and I may mean nothing in the end.

    Problem is that I have a boa who has no cancer, no blood abnormalities and is exhibiting several indicators of ibd. Everything that goes on in my collection is now under a microscope.
  • 10-23-2008, 05:45 PM
    JimiSnakes
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by starmom View Post
    I sincerely hope that every other test you have performed on your snakes comes back negative as well :)

    I do too. Best of luck!
  • 10-23-2008, 05:46 PM
    Skiploder
    Re: boas and ibd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim020cricket View Post
    How long after you acquired the pythons did the symptoms arrive?


    I'm slowly getting there... patience mano

    Last python was added about 14 months before the symptoms occurred.
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