Mongrel Ball

In five years I dont want to have to worry about my ball pythons being part blood/mongrel/angolan/corn/lizard/dog.

With that being said, I am against hybrids for that reason.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Also, there is no such thing as a 3/4 ball or 2/3 ball python. The hybrid parent will have exactly 50% of it's genes from the ball python side, and exactly 50% of it's genes from the blood python side. But when the hybrid parent produces sex cells through the process of meiosis, it's a 50/50 shot to determine what side each gene gets it's genetic background from. Each sperm or egg cell produced can get anywhere between 0%-100% of it's genes from one side or the other. It is possible though extremely unlikely for one sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the ball python side, and it's equally possible for the next sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the blood python side. When you're talking about the millions of sperms being produced, each one carrying half the genetic material for millions of different genes you can have any percentage from either half of the hybrid that you can imagine. That's why 2nd generation hybrids are so extremely variable and unpredictable. And if you do get something interesting, it's very likely that it will NOT breed true.

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I was thinking about that but then I got to thinking that because of the huge number of genes (i.e. the classic "large number") that it probably does tend to come out pretty close to the theoretical percentages. But point taken that it's not guaranteed. And of course which individual appearance related genes are received makes the big difference on how ball python or blood python like it looks.

Also, don't forget crossing over that occurs during meiois, so its pretty random which offspring gets which parents genes. And just to echo what others have been saying: Most of the hybrids out there are pretty cool looking (not just balls) but the more they are bred and sold, the harder it is to keep track of what happens with those snakes. Look at all the Morellia out there with jag in them, and Im pretty sure jags only occur naturally in coastals and just jungles and IJ's (not a carpet guy so I could be wrong). And how many corn snakes out there are really pure corns? I'd hate for that to happen to ball pythons.

The problem with comparing these to carpet pythons is

1. The carpets are all subspecies not completely different species from different parts of the world

2. Carpet pythons were originally all lumped together in one species. They weren't divided out by subspecies until years AFTER Australia shut down exports, so people were crossing the different types together before they were even recognized as subspecies.

It's unlikely that anyone has pure carpet pythons anyway unless they've been recently smuggled out of Australia.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The part I don't like is that as soon as the initial cross was made the decision was already made for future herpers that they can't be sure they have a ball python. Only the 2nd generation the records are getting muddied (aren't these 3/4 ball and 1/4 blood?) and some of them could pass for pure balls. I'm sure in another generation if not this some of them will be lost completely into the captive ball population. A few years down the road one of their more odd decedents could be picked out as a possible new ball morph and years might be wasted trying to bring it to market.

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Great point Randy!!! The combo in this link does not look to far from a Ball. Breed it to a Ball morph and you have a cool pattern animal that will certainly look like a Ball -- but not , in fact be one.:(

I think that's pretty damn cool but I'd rather make my own and put a morph ball python into the mix.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

This is EXACTLY the reason I don't like hybrids. Many of those on that page could pass for normal ball pythons but will still carry many genes from their blood python side and eventually throw a monkey wrench into somebodies breeding project who thinks they are working with pure ball pythons.

Also, there is no such thing as a 3/4 ball or 2/3 ball python. The hybrid parent will have exactly 50% of it's genes from the ball python side, and exactly 50% of it's genes from the blood python side. But when the hybrid parent produces sex cells through the process of meiosis, it's a 50/50 shot to determine what side each gene gets it's genetic background from. Each sperm or egg cell produced can get anywhere between 0%-100% of it's genes from one side or the other. It is possible though extremely unlikely for one sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the ball python side, and it's equally possible for the next sperm to have 100% of it's genetic material from the blood python side. When you're talking about the millions of sperms being produced, each one carrying half the genetic material for millions of different genes you can have any percentage from either half of the hybrid that you can imagine. That's why 2nd generation hybrids are so extremely variable and unpredictable. And if you do get something interesting, it's very likely that it will NOT breed true.

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Your right....that's why in large scale experiments where they cross two F1 hybrids it's possible to get back the parental type completely....see this post...http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...9&postcount=26

So the "blood" isnt really contaminated if you can get back the parental type in an F1xF1 cross!

Very interesting. I would have expected a lot more genes to be involved. Even accounting for the likely much longer than 10,000 year separation of African and Asian pythons and not limiting to the visible phenotype effecting genes from the studies there could well be less than 100 genes different between ball and blood pythons. But since the odds of getting a pure parent type increase exponentially with the number of different genes even just 10 different would make it very difficult to undue the mixing. Especially if a sizable percentage of the different genes where not ones that effected appearance but rather maybe more subtle genes perhaps significant for health or reproduction.

this one is stunning Mongrel Ball ID= RR 08 138