Breeding for attitude rather than morph..

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I still don't see the arguments making much sense. It's a SNAKE! Let it be a snake! It will never be a pack animal. If you want an pet to act like a puppy, get a puppy.


And Wolf, you cannot compare domestication of mammals to domestication of reptiles.

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Agreed!!! I think ball pythons are awesome just the way they are :sunny: . I dont think they will ever change, EVER....

I already asked this somewhere else, but has anyone heard of breeding BPs for their size? I think it would be cool to have a line that got 7-8 feet... could it be done?

I think perhaps "domestication" is too strong a word since it implies a tighter integration into the household than would ever be possible with a snake.

But, I don't think that means that the idea behind the OP is a bad one. IMO, selecting breeders based on some sort of "pet friendly" criteria is a good one and it's got nothing to do with wanting BP's to be something they are not. Its more a matter of taking something more than coloring into account. For example, snakes with a calmer and more confident disposition are more likely to do well in captivity. To me, that seems like a win for everybody.

Breeding for size would be more straightforward since its easier to measure. But, I guess like breeding for attitude, it all rests on how much money you can make out of it. As far as I can tell, its the expensive morphs that are the bread and butter of the breeders.

You can't compare the domestication of mammals with the domestication of reptiles....why not?
Did anyone say they wanted to turn ball pythons into puppies? lol

No, we have been talking about breeding ball pythons for confident, non-aggressive dispositions and good feeding and breeding instincts. I really fail to see how this led to the silliness of ball pythons that wag their tails when greeted.

Of course, my females wag their tail when they see a male, but...

It also amuses me that cats fail most of the criteria for animals that are good prospects for domestication. I suspect that information is either outdated, or underinformed. You can domesticate just about anything, if you want to--just a matter of how long it takes. Then again, it does say those are criteria for identifying good prospects for domestication, not that they're REQUIREMENTS for it.

Foxes. Solitary animals with nervous dispositions. Carnivores.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/542604/domesticated_fox/
Domesticated during an experiment in Russia. The attempt was to create a strain of fox that would do well in captive situations in fur farms. The results were unexpected. They didn't get their fur farm foxes, as the domesticated foxes' coats and tails developed aberrant traits that made them unsuitable for the fur industry.

Information on the experiment: http://reactor-core.org/taming-foxes.html

Now, of course the changes that occur in reptiles during domestication will not be the same as those that occur in mammals. For one thing, pedomorphism is generally undesireable, as juvenile herps are more nervous and high strung than adults. So, in breeding for calmness, my GUESS will be that we'll see animals actually reaching maturity WITH an adult temperment, faster. People already select for this, without even thinking about it. The animals that grow and mature fastest, and produce the largest clutches, are the ones they keep in their collection as breeders.

Animal instinctive behavior is genetic. When you select for more or less of certain instinctive behavors, you can make substantial changes over time. This is no different in reptiles than it is in any other animal.
By reducing hatchlings' inherent nervousness and defensiveness, and reducing the overall predator avoidance instincts in captive snakes, we can breed snakes that make calmer and less stressed pets. We might even be able to breed the 'prey pickiness' out of ball pythons--select for animals that will eat whatever prey is offered to them, and over time you should have fewer and fewer picky eaters.

I would go so far as to say that if you want to create a ball python that will wag its tail when it sees/smells a human, you could! It would take a long time, and the REASON it does so would be worlds apart from the reason a dog does it, but that could in fact be bred into them.
It's possible because tail-wagging is already a natural ball python behavior. It's just a matter of selecting for it to occur when you want it to, over time.
I'm not saying you should. ;D

In my own collection, I'll be going for good, adaptable, reliable feeders, calm and unstressed dispositions, and good breeders.
Others may breed strictly for looks.
Unless you are breeding pure wild strain normal ball pythons without regard to their disposition, appearance, or adaptation to captivity, you are breeding to change the animals.
Even then, the animals that do worst in captivity will naturally eliminate themselves from breeding programs over time.

Again...your post made me dizzy.

I think my head is going to spin off into another dimension!

:eek:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

We might even be able to breed the 'prey pickiness' out of ball pythons--select for animals that will eat whatever prey is offered to them, and over time you should have fewer and fewer picky eaters.

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Pickiness in ball pythons is more directly related to husbandry issues than a genetic pre-disposition. I haven't met a "picky" ball python yet. Every "problem eater" I've adopted has eaten within the first two weeks with me and reliably from then on out. There were animals labeled as "picky eaters" as reasons for their surrender to the pet store.

Why do you suppose their prior owners couldn't get them to eat? Most likely, their husbandry was not correct, and they did not provide proper housing.

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

Again...your post made me dizzy.

I think my head is going to spin off into another dimension!

:eek:

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LOL - I tend to just skim! :cool:

Of course feeding problems aren't always related to husbandry. I have snakes that will eat anything they're given, and snakes that take weeks and weeks to convert over to f/t, and the husbandry is correct (and the same) for them all.

Ask any of the big breeders about snakes that go inexplicably off their feed for periods of time. Or hatchlings that only eat when they feel like it once in a while.
It happens.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

I really fail to see how this led to the silliness of ball pythons that wag their tails when greeted.

Of course, my females wag their tail when they see a male, but...

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I wasn't aware you were experienced in breeding ball pythons to the point of knowing what they do when they "see a male". Are yours locking up already this year?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Ask any of the big breeders about snakes that go inexplicably off their feed for periods of time. Or hatchlings that only eat when they feel like it once in a while.
It happens.

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What percentage does it "happen" to? A very small number in comparison to the number of animals in captivity. Again -a picky ball python is the anomoly when husbandry is correct.

You haven't been here long enough to see the numerous instances on this forum when an owner complains of a picky ball python, when advised of husbandry changes to make and then does it, that then has a reliable feeder. But you're also still relatively new to keeping ball pythons yourself, aren't you? If I remember your intro post correctly.