Curiosity and genetics...overbite?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Wouldn't you be curious if you found a rabbit with 3 ears, or a dragon born without a tail?

---

Nope, I would write it off as a genectic deformanty and not even think about breeding that odd looking animal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

And no, i didn't get a male and female to breed them together.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

If i breed both, and over a couple years play with temps, incubators, substrates [but still in the normal range] different mates, etc and even breed each other's siblings back to them, and nothing pops up. How long should I go to prove it non-genetic?

---

So first quote you pretty much say you didn't get them to breed together, then second quote you say you are looking to breed them and possible even their off spring over the years. I'd personally and I know a lot of others here on this forum and in the herp world would not even breed them in the first place because they aren't perfect or top quality animals. I know most people breed there animals on quality and health. What if you do breed them together or to another non related snake and it does prove out to be genetic and you don't have the heart till euthunize them. What are you going to do? Take them to a local show, throw them up on the internet at a lower price because they aren't quality animals who indeed have flaws. What is someone else thinks the same exact thing as you are now and does the same thing when that snake reaches maturity. That person is going to have the same problems as you with it's genetic flaw and well yeah people are going to be breeding snakes that have bad over bites.

Then again I could be totally wrong but that's just me thinking this way. I know when I look to get an animal I look for quality and one without any kind of history with any kind of flaw. I'd specially want that if I were in fact a breeder who's going to have a reputation in this business and hobby world. I don't want someone going around saying "oh Ali breeds and sells snakes that have jaw problems and they look weird for a few extra bucks".

Eh that's just me, I look into everything very deep and list all the pros and cons for just about anything I do. I don't just jump on to something because it's an "oddity".

*You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Lillyorchid again*

Good post :)

"I know most people breed there animals on quality and health."
Yes, because they know when they sell them, they are going to effect the current gene pool. Mine will never leave my personal collection.

"What if you do breed them together or to another non related snake and it does prove out to be genetic and you don't have the heart till euthunize them."
Maybe if I was a wuss, which I am not. Sorry, but I' a very practical and ethical person. If something isn't up to par and I don't want to risk it even entering the gene pool, i'll put it down. Had a beardie whose left side was smaller than his right hatch out. Could he have lived a good life? yes, but too many unethical people out there so I froze him.
You have a very good post, but it doesn't really apply as this is an experiment, not part of my breeding projects.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Maybe if I was a wuss, which I am not. Sorry, but I' a very practical and ethical person. If something isn't up to par and I don't want to risk it even entering the gene pool, i'll put it down. Had a beardie whose left side was smaller than his right hatch out. Could he have lived a good life? yes, but too many unethical people out there so I froze him.
You have a very good post, but it doesn't really apply as this is an experiment, not part of my breeding projects.

---

Why would you put down the offspring? You chose to allow these two to live, what makes them different than the offspring? Would you put these two down as well?

I think your idea of ethical and others might not quite be in alignment. Especially when it comes to "experimenting" with live animals that you plan to put down if they are hatched with the same birth defect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Why would you put down the offspring? You chose to allow these two to live, what makes them different than the offspring? Would you put these two down as well?

---

If they live to adulthood. and if they produce, what would be the point of culling them then? They obviously survived this long, they can be pets. If their offspring show the trait, what would be the point of keeping them? I would probably see if they can shed and eat, but even if there are spiders in the clutch I have no desire for more pet animals and unless there is a way to spay or neuter them, I'm not letting them out of my collection. But read that first part again, that's a lot of 'ifs'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

I think your idea of ethical and others might not quite be in alignment. Especially when it comes to "experimenting" with live animals that you plan to put down if they are hatched with the same birth defect.

---

We wouldn't have 3/4 of the things we have today if I wasn't for experimentation. Some of it on live animals. I also think you are confusing ethics with morals. Do you believe I can't [legally] be able to euthanize animals I own? Or do you simply believe I shouldn't? btw, rats, snakes, rabbits, lizards, goats, etc are all animals and on the same level with me. Or do you not believe in ownership at all? but that we are the animals 'guardians'?
Honestly, I think I would breed 3 legged rats if they grew bigger and had more babies for feeders, lol. :snake:
Culling undesirables is a fact of life, breeders pick and choose all the time. I don't even know why this non-issue is a part of this discussion. Didn't see this thread coming, honestly, i saw us talking about if the breeder cut the eggs or if they got out on their own or something. Cause this is only headed one way - religion :rolleye2:

Quote:

---

If they live to adulthood. and if they produce, what would be the point of culling them then? They obviously survived this long, they can be pets. If their offspring show the trait, what would be the point of keeping them?

---

For the same reason that you chose to keep these two? :confuzd:

Why would your ethics for the offspring you choose to produce be any different than for the two with birth defects that you want to "experiment" with?

What's the point of keeping these two RIGHT NOW if there's no point in keeping their offspring if they have the same birth defect in a few years? Your reasoning is flawed to me.

And it has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with your logic, which you're not making a compelling argument that makes much sense to me.

Do you plan to publish your results of this "experiment" or is it just for your own personal curiosity? Usually experiments are to add to the collective knowledge of the community.

Your arguments thus far are that you just want to see what happens, which isn't a good enough reason, IMHO.

I've seen the Fauna thread..I am guessing ethics were thrown out the window a long time ago. Just sayin...

But carry on with the mad scientist experiments. I dig it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

For the same reason that you chose to keep these two? :confuzd:

Why would your ethics for the offspring you choose to produce be any different than for the two with birth defects that you want to "experiment" with?

What's the point of keeping these two RIGHT NOW if there's no point in keeping their offspring if they have the same birth defect in a few years? Your reasoning is flawed to me.

---

Because we don't know if it's genetic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Do you plan to publish your results of this "experiment" or is it just for your own personal curiosity? Usually experiments are to add to the collective knowledge of the community.

Your arguments thus far are that you just want to see what happens, which isn't a good enough reason, IMHO.

---

If it was just for my personal curiosity, i wouldn't have posted about it. Several people here and my friends in the community have already emailed me to kept in the loop about what I find out, and i'm sure i'll post here in 3-4 years about what happens. Do you not consider this a community? as for publication, I doubt it other than the pages on my website.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

Because we don't know if it's genetic.

---

I'm curious... say this turns out to be a recessive trait and all the offspring appear normal. Will you disclose the abnormality of the sire and dame to your customers or will you continue to raise the offspring and breed them back to their parents in order determine if it is genetic or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezclado_Reps

If it was just for my personal curiosity, i wouldn't have posted about it.

---

Must have been several statements here that confused me then - where you say it's for your personal curiosity on multiple occassions or ask others if they wouldn't be curious (and no - I personally am not)......:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

I had the opportunity to buy some baby [2 days old] ball pythons with severe overbites. And I did, out of simple curiosity.

---

and this:

Quote:

---

Yes, they are physically sub-par, and it's yet to be seen whether they are simply survivors or thrivers, but are they genetically? Wouldn't you be curious if you found a rabbit with 3 ears, or a dragon born without a tail?

---

and maybe this.....

Quote:

---

I love these little puzzles, I pick up oddities anytime I can.

---

and finally this

Quote:

---

I take advice and criticism well, that's how we learn, but you can't tell me you aren't the least bit curious about something far from well-documented?

---