First 2007 CH shipment a few fancies....More "Lottery" debate split

Apologies beforehand....this is not directed at Neil or anyone in particular.....just my thoughts on this stuff....so don't take it personally.



Comparing to a lottery? so the ball pythons are just like a lottery ticket....and if someone loses, they will toss the ticket. It will happen...people do those things...if you don't think so, you have no understanding of people.

How many people will get a 10 bag of ball pythons and actually keep them all when nothing turns up? How many times will they change hands in that year? Out of all those 5400 $15 ball python, how many will make it through their first year? How many will die in pet stores or in the hands of unexperienced keepers? If tens of thousands of ball pythons are imported each year, where do they all go? Of the tens of thousands of ball pythons and other reptiles massively imported each year, how many live a heathy life and die of old age?

Why are the ball pythons being sold so cheap? To move them quick? The 'lottery' was a pretty good idea to increase profit. Pay for the importation process, don't even unpack the snakes, and ship them out to people for a cost three times as much as you paid for them . That brings the term 'flipper' to a whole new level, but hey.....at least someone don't have to pay for housing or food for all those snakes to get them established before selling....sure cuts down the overhead doesn't it?

Oh well......money drives most of the reptile industry...and just about all others..ha. People like money......most of them like money more than animals. Glad someone realized that they could prey on that greed......Lets start a lottery!!...For a few bucks you have the slightest of chances to hit it big...... That really got those looking for some sort of 'prize' interested. Next year, why not open up a few bags and toss an albino or two in the bags.....that would sure make someones day and the bags would sell twice as fast....and guess what, someone is guaranteed to win.....someone could really move'em out quick.

I really just can't understand why people don't hold these animals' lives with more value.....a life is worth $15 in the reptile industry (unless you are special but that only lasts for so long)....that is what stuff like this lottery makes me realize. For $200, I could buy 10 savannah monitors and 10 ball pythons....and just throw a party! Who care if I kill half of them and keep the rest in 10 gallon aquariums for the rest of their days....at least the importer made money.

It is pitiful that these animals are worth so little...

..but hey, what can you do? Ask the importers to charge more so people don't view these animals as disposable? Don't import so many?.....ha ha.....but that would take money out of their pockets....or would it? If only one crate of 1000 ball pythons was imported each year, what would the price be then? $100 each? $200 each? more? Would spending $200 on an animal make people care for them more? Sure the brand names that get their jollies from selling improper husbandry equipment might take a big hit....but would the importers lose money?

Sorry for the ranting and random spitting of words........I have just seen 1 too many animals that no one cares for.....maybe there is a solution....maybe there isn't....it is everyones' fault that things are the way they are....no one takes more blame than the other....I have even contributed bits to downgrading these animals to a pricetag.....no more though.....I just can't stomach it.

So far from what 2 people posted I think one got 20 animals, and got 8.12 The other one got 6.4
That's about 50/50 split. I know it's only two bags, but that's all I've seen so far.
Daniel, I don't want any animal to be considered disposable. I worry over people who breed cornsnakes and sell those for $10 each. I worry over people who give away puppies and kittens.
I think since I've seen the baby ball pythons at shows priced at anywhere from $15 to $30 apeice, it seems more like a "market price" and it doesn't seem as cheap to me. But then, those $10 cornsnakes are also priced at a typical market too.
The best thing to do in my opinion is to educate the buying public. A lot of buyers today will look for captive born and bred animals, becuase of the education efforts and telling person after person that getting a well-started animal that's eating already is easier for a newbie.
I don't worry as much over the "lottery" sales because of #1 whos running them(this time) and #2 they are marketed more towards hobbiests and breeders, not the general public. If you were selling unopened bags in a pet store and saying "Hey you could get an albino!" well... that's a bit far over the edge to me. Selling bags inside the reptile community and saying "You could find something neat" is I guess not over the line to me.
How many breeders sell the normals out of their clutchs each year for $20 or less? Should they be forced to raise the price? Or is it that you think because they've hatched those snakes they will somehow care more for where they go? What about big breeders that produce hundreds? What about small breeders who produce well over their ability to house? I'd really like your honest opinion of these too, as they are also forms of disposable ball pythons.
I respect where you are coming from, and it's always good to have someone focused on any one section of an overall problem. I think you are overestimating the amount of money made on these bags, but if you don't have to water, feed and house them, they do cost less overhead. But are they higher priced when they've been housed, fed, and watered? Normally yeah, they are. Instead of $15 each, they might be $25 each. If you want a healthy eating individual snake, then the bags are not the way to go. I think the allure is in the idea that we(the general herping public) would have the opportunity to "go through the imported snakes" in a tiny way. We might never get a opportunity to look at a crate load of babies fresh in and pick out some for ourselves, but by buying one unopened bag, we sort of get to experiance it in a smaller way.
Importing baby ballpythons will likely always be a controversial subject, with some people always for it, and others always against it. It follows over to other species where some NEED imports for fresh blood, and can't get them, and others are endangered in the wild and NEED to be unharvested so populations can rebuild.
Wolfy

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think you are overestimating the amount of money made on these bags

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You do? What are you basing this on?

I'm basing it on what I've been told by the importers. Nothing moe, which is why I said "I think.." and not "You're wrong". Importing and selling cheap doesn't seem like a huge money scheme to me. As stated by people involved, they buy the huge quanties to get access to the cool stuff.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Daniel, I don't want any animal to be considered disposable. I worry over people who breed cornsnakes and sell those for $10 each. I worry over people who give away puppies and kittens.

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Of course you don't want any animal to be considered disposable.....I don't think anyone with a bit of conscience would actually want them to be labeled as 'disposable'. However, the low cost of the animals makes them 'disposable'. If you lost $15 in cash, how would you feel? Sure you might be a little pissed, but hey...it is only $15. Now make it $75, any differnce? What about $100? To some people, tossing out a deprived baby ball python is the same as tossing stale potato chips....some are even worse though....they would sell the stale potato chips.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think since I've seen the baby ball pythons at shows priced at anywhere from $15 to $30 apeice, it seems more like a "market price" and it doesn't seem as cheap to me. But then, those $10 cornsnakes are also priced at a typical market too.

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What does 'market price' have to do with it? I pay 'market price' for gas....It is a shame that something living has a 'market price'.....unless you are talking lobsters or crawfish......but at least people eat those after they kill them. I have seen ball pythons literally sold by the pound....now we are talking cows...but at least those make for a good bbq.

Market price....LMAO. The people make 'the market'. If the people value something little....the price is low. The price speaks for the people.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

The best thing to do in my opinion is to educate the buying public. A lot of buyers today will look for captive born and bred animals, becuase of the education efforts and telling person after person that getting a well-started animal that's eating already is easier for a newbie.

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Agreed! Education is great in all aspects. The more smart people the better ;)

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I don't worry as much over the "lottery" sales because of #1 whos running them(this time) and #2 they are marketed more towards hobbiests and breeders, not the general public. If you were selling unopened bags in a pet store and saying "Hey you could get an albino!" well... that's a bit far over the edge to me. Selling bags inside the reptile community and saying "You could find something neat" is I guess not over the line to me.

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Marketed towards hobbiest and breeders? LMAO...."Hello, this is Ralph Davis, I would like 10 chances at winning it big"....You need to be more specific. It is marketed towards beginning hobbiest and beginning breeders....no person that has been in the 'game' for a while needs to 'play the lottery'...they already know where to get the good stuff.

And actually, the marketing stratergy does not bother me at all....the fact that it is applied to living animals is what gets me. I guess ball pythons are getting harder to sell by presenting a quality animal....more intense marketing is needed.

I can't wait for the "Buy 10 get 2 free" or "Buy 100 and you get a free box of steaks"......

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

How many breeders sell the normals out of their clutchs each year for $20 or less? Should they be forced to raise the price? Or is it that you think because they've hatched those snakes they will somehow care more for where they go? What about big breeders that produce hundreds? What about small breeders who produce well over their ability to house? I'd really like your honest opinion of these too, as they are also forms of disposable ball pythons.

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Now we are going to bring breeders into the mess. Like I said before EVERYONE is responsible.....breeders just as much a importers. Should they be forced to raise the price? Maybe you should ask, were they forced to lower the price because of the cheap imports being offered? If imports went for $50 each, do you still think the breeders would sell normals for $20? But after all....it is about the money. And "people have eyes bigger than their stomachs".....If you are a hobbiest and don't have the ability to house all the offspring you intend to produce, DON'T BREED YOUR SNAKES. Is that a hard concept? Must be...people seem to misunderstand that alot. The breeders producing hundreds....then they have to sell hundreds correct? Why aren't people willing to fork up a few extra dollars to buy CBB normals from breeders? Instead of dealing with the lottery, why not call up a breeder and pick up TEN CBB normals from him....hell....there would probably be a few het males in the bunch....almost like a lottery, but not quite there. The sick fact is that more production equals more money.....after all....a life is only worth $15....if it is a little more valueable due to being CBB, so be it.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I respect where you are coming from, and it's always good to have someone focused on any one section of an overall problem. I think you are overestimating the amount of money made on these bags, but if you don't have to water, feed and house them, they do cost less overhead. But are they higher priced when they've been housed, fed, and watered? Normally yeah, they are. Instead of $15 each, they might be $25 each. If you want a healthy eating individual snake, then the bags are not the way to go. I think the allure is in the idea that we(the general herping public) would have the opportunity to "go through the imported snakes" in a tiny way. We might never get a opportunity to look at a crate load of babies fresh in and pick out some for ourselves, but by buying one unopened bag, we sort of get to experiance it in a smaller way.

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I am not focusing on any one section....I see it all across the board....all you have to do is open your eyes and observe. I love to see people excited about reptiles....remember when you were a kid and the idea of just having a snake thrilled you. Now we all grew up and get our jollies by playing a 'lottery'.....ha ha....I guess people have just gotten spoiled....If I took away all your 'toys' and left you with one normal male ball python....would you be happy? It seems that alot of people are screaming "more,more,more"......all fun and games if you are talking ice cream cones...but live animals...don't they call that some sort of condition?

However, I do see other parts of the hobby where animals are actually valued....not with a 'market price'...but with a non-monetary value that the keeper gives the animals. That is what I like to see....with any animal.

Opening a bag similar to the experiance of opening a crate?...Neal already said that they are nothing alike....there is a big differece between 10 and 5400...

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Importing baby ball pythons will likely always be a controversial subject, with some people always for it, and others always against it. It follows over to other species where some NEED imports for fresh blood, and can't get them, and others are endangered in the wild and NEED to be unharvested so populations can rebuild.

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Sure some imports are "needed" for our selfish reasons.....but that is our issue.

And importing is not really controversial to me....it is what is done after importation that gets my undies twisted.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Lets get real here. This wasn't a lottery. It doesn't even resemble a lottery. A lottery involves there being a set winner or winners out of all who participate.

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You are somewhat incorrect. Lotteries go on for weeks/months and no one wins and there are no "set" winners. I think you are confusing a lottery with a raffle, to very different animals. A lottery you can and others can participate for months even years and never win. No such thing as a set winner in a lottery, raffle yes lottery no.

And bags of bp's could go on for weeks/months and no one find a special one. And one day "poof" out pops a low grade morph.

Websters version of a lottery:" A scheme ( hmm...seems I have seen that word pop up here ) for the distribution of prizes by lot or chance."

Prize, I think everyone would be different as to what a "prize" is, some may think in order to be a winner in the bp lottery they would have to get an albino, others may consider the "prize" a couple of females, while still others may think a "prize" is a unusal normal.

Again while I don't agree w/ said lottery it is still a lottery plain and simple.

Excellent post Daniel.:sweeet:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Where are you getting this 60%-70% males number???? Overall you will get about 50/50. The exporters do not care the sex of these snakes. Even the big importers can't request to get only females so why would the bags not be on average 50/50? How many bags of ch snakes have you ever opened and sexed? You seem pretty sure of yourself.

Why are you so against the unopened bag thing? No one said their is a great shot at finding something special. People are getting nice healthy animals for $15 each. What's the problem?

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the numbers are a guess(made up) by me just for kicks.

i'm not into flippin imports, i just buy what i like.

you are correct, the ratio SHOULD be 50/50 we'll see:rolleyes:

i don't buy unopened bags, i buy what i want to keep.

i'm not against the "unopened bags" the importer knows what they ordered and the exporter knows full well what they packed.

early ch normals this year are going for 7-10 bucks a piece. flipping them for 15 a piece without even seeing or caring for them, not my cup of tea.

to each their own


vaughn

I split this discussion off from Neil's original picture thread. Since it has remained relatively civil, I've left it in its primary forum...but if it gets out of hand, we can move it to the Quarantine Room.

Now...to comment on topic:

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

I think the point that has been beaten to death is the way it was marketed, and making such a big deal about such a slim chance to get more than you pay for is, in my opinion, teetering on being deceptive. Period. Others might have a different opinion, and we're all entitled to that. I'm not sure why the argument keeps going on...

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Personally, I don't think using the term "lottery" in their advertisement was "Making a big deal" out of anything. It was a descriptive term for the process of ordering a bag of imported ball pythons sight unseen.

The "big deal" was made by all the vehement protests that brought the whole issue to light for a LOT of people who would never have even noticed it otherwise.

That's just my personal observation. Make of it what you will.

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Originally Posted by jotay

You are somewhat incorrect. Lotteries go on for weeks/months and no one wins and there are no "set" winners. I think you are confusing a lottery with a raffle, to very different animals. A lottery you can and others can participate for months even years and never win. No such thing as a set winner in a lottery, raffle yes lottery no.

Again while I don't agree w/ said lottery it is still a lottery plain and simple.

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Last time I checked, REAL lotteries have REAL odds that are calculated scientifically.

The "odds" that Neil came up with were based on his own personal experience and while the sample sizes seem pretty large, 5400 this year according to him, they are a far cry from being scientific. There isn't even a specific "winning ticket" either, everyone's definition of a win is probably different in this case. You call that a lottery?

I'll stick with "not a lottery." ;)