I might get in trouble

I was brought up catholic but lean more towards the "there is a god, but he just sits there and watches, knows nothing...etc" view. I forgot what that is called so forgive me. I do not care if someone tells me merry christmas or happy holidays. It is a season for various religions to practice what they believe. Now I am no expert on religion, but isn't it pretty much common practice to be tolerant of other religions? As in, not doing anything about it but respecting the views of others? If we criticize someone for not saying merry christmas or because someone does say it, then what is that saying about us?

In general I am inclined to think that people of all religions are afraid of secularization. The phrase Happy Holidays is undeniably secular. I would be interested to see if the same people who are offended by Happy Holidays are as offended by Happy Hanukkah (if they are Christian). At least they know that the people saying Happy Hanukkah are religious, even if its not their religion.

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Originally Posted by minotaur

In the cases I am thinking of the religious leaders used their own personal biases under the guise of religion to get thousands of people to do their bidding. The crusades werent about conversion, they were about power, land and wealth.

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I would argue that all religions are about those same exact things.

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Originally Posted by minotaur

Can you come up with an example where a religion actually teaches intolerance? Most of them make it a specific point to accept others.

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Have you actually read the major religious materials? IE, the Bible or Torah or Koran? I could quote many intolerant scriptures from each, although that might open up an entirely different debate.

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I would argue that all religions are about those same exact things.

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Its an interesting argument but I am inclined to think that religion is more about explaining what we dont understand. Just because generation after generation of power hungry religious leaders have taken advantage of millions of people does not mean that religion itself is about power, wealth and land.

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Have you actually read the major religious materials? IE, the Bible or Torah or Koran? I could quote many intolerant scriptures from each, although that might open up an entirely different debate.

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I have read the bible and torah. Although they show examples of intolerance, I think they use these examples for the overall purpose of teaching that intolerance is wrong. The strongest example that comes to mind is Jesus helping the lepers.

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Originally Posted by minotaur

Its an interesting argument but I am inclined to think that religion is more about explaining what we dont understand. Just because generation after generation of power hungry religious leaders have taken advantage of millions of people does not mean that religion itself is about power, wealth and land.

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From my standpoint, there isn't much difference between a religion and it's founder/leaders. What any given deity considers right or wrong is determined by it's human creators, therefore, serves their interests.

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Originally Posted by minotaur

I have read the bible and torah. Although they show examples of intolerance, I think they use these examples for the overall purpose of teaching that intolerance is wrong. The strongest example that comes to mind is Jesus helping the lepers.

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It's all well and good to take one example of tolerance from an incomplete and heavily edited writing and then discount the many examples of intolerance in the same work by simply failing to mention them. Since I have no preconceived belief to support, I am able to look at the inconsistencies head on and see them for what they are, without excusing them.

SarahMB, its difficult to properly respond to your post because I understand what you are saying and I am certainly not ignorant enough to think I can change your opinion.

As far as what constitutes a religion, I believe the concept of religion was originally created as a moral compass, a set of rules to be followed before the advent of the legal system. Thats why a system like the 10 commandments can be found in almost every religion, even polytheistic religions. Because religion is a moral compass, people need to be judged individually, not based on the interpretation of the new leader on the block. If the founder of the religion preaches intolerance that is a different story. In terms of religious texts, like the bible, my example was poor and I realize that intolerance, even by God, does exist in the Torah. Actually, here is a link to some of the intolerance passages: http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_bibl.htm

As per my first post in this thread, I tell people I am catholic because it is a good first approximation, my true beliefs are complicated and might surprise you. If I took the time to explain what I believe, you would understand why I say I am catholic. Thanks for your insight SarahMB but your posts seem to assume that all people of the standard religions are intolerant and I think that needs to be judged on an individual basis.

I believe you HAVE to seperate out the religion from the practicers. A lot of religions say to love thy neighbors and such.. the rules as laid out are basically good. But then you have the interpetors of the rules. They are people. Even meaning well, they can twist what the original people wrote, or recieved from god.
I'm pretty much non-religious. I'm not offended when someone tells me "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Hannakka(sp)" or "Good Kwanzaa" "Good day." All of them are wishing me a good day, some are stating they think it's a holy time of some sort. Good for them.
When they say *I* have to use their term, that's when it's rude. I should be able to say whatever well-wishes I want without them deciding it's offensive.
For those that say "That's taking the Christ out of Christmas".. well, yeah. That's the point to some. If you aren't christian, then Christ isn't in the rest of the year either. It's a free country, and I have the right to NOT believe in Christ as the son of god.
No matter who founded the country, it's always stated "Freedom of religion" which includes by definition "Freedom from religion" as well. If I'd like to be Buddist and president, then I should be able to. And I might say Happy Holidays.. since I don't believe in Christmas.
Debating the actual religions is really not something I do online usually. Someone always ends up yelling and getting all incensed. But I will say that if you are going to state "Oh you said ONE thing but you ignored all the other things" then you should state YOUR example of one of the 'other things'. Don't attack someone for THEIR beliefs. You are asking that they not attack you for your lack of them. Extend the same courtesy.
No one should ever rip apart another's dreams. Just because you don't share it, don't seek to destroy it.
No matter what ANYONE'S religion(or lack of) I judge on what they do. If they're a good person, then I don't care. You can worship last years squash cassarole for all I care.
Everyone should be subject to the same laws(pretty much true in this country) and no matter what your beliefs, you still should treat others with respect and courtesy.
Wolfy

i always thought happy holidays is just a time of year where there are many holidays that come from different religions, if it's the case, happy holidays implies, "im not sure what you are celebrating but happy ______ to you!"

BUT, if you know someone celebrates the same holiday as you do, then there is no reason not to say "merrry christmas" or "happy hanukkah" or "happy kwanza"

just my 2 cents


whatever you are, :rockon: :rockon:

It shouldnt matter what people say to you or what you say to them. Sometimes I will say Merry Christmas, other times I will say Happy Holidays. Its whatever comes to the tongue first and I have never thought twice about it. It is nit-picking if you are going to be so precise about what you are saying and argumentative because someone says one or the other to you. IMO, you should just get over it, if you dont liek what one person is saying to you deal with it, there isnt a whole lot you can do about it without causing an unnecessary argument.

You know I don't particularily care if someone smiles at me and says "Happy Easter" or "Happy Belly Button Lint Day". For me, and what I'm trying to raise the kids to see, is it's about reaching out to family, to friends, to strangers on the street and just connect and share a bit of happiness in a world that has far, far too little of it. So if Easter means going to church for you and having a lovely meal with your family afterwards...that's wonderful! If it means chocolate bunnies and giggles...that's great! If it means nothing but you spend a great day off with a good book and a loved one nearby....totally awesome!

The fact that we as a society look for reasons to argue, to pick at someone else over a darn holiday is just sad and something I won't involve me or mine in. I'd rather spend this holiday weekend enjoying ourselves and smiling at a few strangers on the bus. That's enough for me really, even if some of the strangers think I'm strange but then hey...my granny said I'd talk to a rock given half a chance so I'll just go on saying hi and happy whatever. :)