Goin out with your Snake

Well, with patience and time we can get ball pythons to the point where they are calm and curious while being out and handled.. hardly something a wild BP is going to do.

I don't think Rapture is totally wrong there. Nor do I think it is wrong to take your snake out occasionally. Obviously if it's a problem eater and very shy when being handled anyway.. it wouldn't be a good idea, but if the animal is well adjusted and you have confidence that the place you're taking the snake is reasonably safe, I say go for it.

I have to agree with those saying an occasional outing can be a favorable thing, especially with a snake that is calm and outgoing.

No, a few outings won't reverse evolution. But breeding for a relaxed, easy-going temperament can. And taking a snake that has a more outgoing nature out regularly can help acclimate the snake to those conditions.

Humans are not evolved for deep sea diving or mountain climbing, and yet with sufficient training, equipment, and experience, we do it. Some like it enough to bother, others don't.

For another analogy--mice are not evolved to enjoy being handled by large, loud, diurnal creatures like humans. And yet, with proper, frequent handling, they become quite tame and many will not want to go back in their cage. Some become so inquisitive and fearless that they'll climb all over anyone who comes close enough to grab onto.

I suspect something similar is true for snakes--those with the right temperament will become accustomed and may even learn to like an outing now and then if they are acclimated appropriately and handled with care. It certainly *seems* to be the case with many of the snakes I've seen at educational events whose handlers have worked with them consistently. I met a pair of bull snakes, for instance, who would hang out in the lap of anyone who cared to hold them and were two of the "friendliest" (and I'm using that term loosely to describe behavior, not to make assumptions about the inner emotional lives of the snakes themselves) snakes I've ever met. The handler attributes it to how hard he has worked with them.

As for scaring other people, I agree we shouldn't be chasing folks around with our snakes. But, if you refrain from taking them out because some people will be frightened, then you oughtn't to be out walking dogs either. I know lots of people who are afraid of dogs. But they don't let their fear paralyze them or prevent them going to the park, mostly because they've become acclimated due to the fact that there are nearly always dogs at the park. Anyone who is so afraid of snakes that they'll hyperventilate just from seeing one imo needs some acclimatizing. Otherwise, what will happen when they happen upon one in the wild?

I'm NOT saying you should force the snake on them. But if the snake is carefully controlled (the same as having a dog on a leash, which sadly, many people do NOT do, even in children's playgrounds, where a large dog is a far greater danger to small children than a loose python would be), and the conditions are appropriate (not cold, for instance), I think it does far more good than harm to bring a snake to the park.

Having said all that, we have not taken our snake out in public. But we hope some day that he'll be ready for that, and we do plan to do it.

Heather

No one likes "that guy" with the snake in public.

I'm not sure what drives these people who just take their snake out for unsolicited public attention...

I understand maybe wanting to share the hobby with the world, but there are much better avenues for doing that than just walking up to the park and scaring the crap out of some kids parents. Check your local herpetological society or get involved with your local SPCA...the key to successful public exposure is you having credibility as a keeper - people will be more open to learning from you. The dude in the park with the snake around his neck is just a wierdo to everyone else and does nothing to advance the hobby.

Couple of things Heather. I've never heard of anyone saying you can breed for temperment in snakes. Maybe it's possible, just odd that nobody I've ever talked to, seen posting here or anywhere has ever mentioned they do this or it's even possible given that this is a snake we are talking about - a species that has been bred captively a relatively short time. Also I just can't buy any reasoning that equates a snake to a rodent or dog. Again different species, different genetic makeup and a far longer selective breeding interaction with humans. Bit apples and oranges to me but that's just my take on it. As far as comparing humans and snakes...well we have the ability and mental capacity to freely make those decisions, snakes do not.

The problem I have with this is not with taking snakes into the public arena in controlled situations or having them out at one's home for handling. I do both. What I don't support and likely never will, is taking one's snake down to sit around the beach or a public park. For me I know I cannot absolutely guarantee my snake's safety in that kind of open, uncontrolled environment and I won't risk them...I feel I guess that I owe them this. In that kind of situation a loose dog can suddenly bound up on you and your snake, a child can rush up to touch and grab or if you lose your focus for one moment the snake is loose in a place that's pretty darn hard to retreive it.

Sure anything can happen in your house too. I have kids and a puppy here too but it's an environment I know well and can plan around. Our puppy in fact is always in her cage when the snakes are out for instance. Her natural instinct is to bark and rush the snakes, so for their best interest and understanding this is natural for a dog to do...she is caged when they are not. The times we take a snake outside in our private yard both Mike and I are there, two adults focused on one snake.

Perhaps I worry too much but I'll always err on the side of caution when it comes to these precious creatures.

Some of our larger emeralds will not "Go" in their cage, so we take them outside for exercise and a "shower" which stimulates them. I have built a "jungle-gym" specifically for that purpose. We have a small courtyard outside our front door where this is done. There is a perfectly clear view from the sidewalk into the courtyard. Even people that chance to glance in most often don't even notice a 5', heavy girth, green snake hanging out on a "contraption".

My main concern when taking them outside is that the environment is suitable to their requirements. In So. Florida there are few days that don't meet these conditions. My question for thoses that like to have their snake as a "traveling" companion, is do you not have the same concern? If you are going in and out of AC'd buildings aren't you worried about the stress from changing environmental conditions?

Craig

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Originally Posted by CraigC

Some of our larger emeralds will not "Go" in their cage, so we take them outside for exercise and a "shower" which stimulates them. I have built a "jungle-gym" specifically for that purpose.

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Wow!

Not something I care to do or expose my snakes to. Don't really understand why anyone feels the need to?

You make some excellent points, frankykeno. I've never heard of anyone breeding for temperament in snakes, either (in fact, I posted that question in another part of this forum just a few minutes ago). And I'm not saying it's definitely possible, but I will say that I would be VERY surprised if it were not. In every species I know of that has been bred in captivity, in close proximity with humans (as opposed to those that can be bred only under special circumstances in zoos and such), for any great length of time, selective breeding has been used to create strains that are friendlier, more easy-going, or otherwise selected for temperament, than others. I admit that I know little about reptiles in particular, and you are quite right that reptiles are very different from mammals. So, like I said, I admit it may be impossible to breed selectively for temperament. But, again, I'd love to see someone try, because I would be willing to bet it's possible. And "outgoing-ness" is definitely a trait I would be willing to pay for.

You also raise the valid point that snakes have been bred in captivity for a very short time compared to mice or dogs or cats, and that comparing them to humans is like apples and oranges, especially because they don't get to choose whether they do these things and we do.

However, in attending public reptile events, I have seen obvious differences in the way that specific snakes behave in public. Those that are really "outgoing" (again, I'm describing behavior here, not inner emotional states) tend to belong to handlers who say that they've worked quite a lot with the snake, exposing it frequently to these types of conditions. Which leads me to believe that while not all snakes can be acclimated to public outings, many can.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

The problem I have with this is not with taking snakes into the public arena in controlled situations or having them out at one's home for handling. I do both. What I don't support and likely never will, is taking one's snake down to sit around the beach or a public park.

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I can totally see this. And yet... I still envision and hope for a world where even unusual pets can be appreciated in casual public settings. And yet, I also totally see your point about dogs or children rushing up, or the snake getting loose. And I'll admit I don't have the temperament, personally, to stay focused as carefully as might be necessary. I will have to give these issues further thought.

As for going from AC to warm humid conditions (and I realize that concern was raised by someone else)... doesn't that happen when you take them out in your own home? How do people deal with that? It almost seems to make more sense, in summer, to take them outdoors than to keep them indoors in an AC'ed house. What do folks here do about the AC in the summer and its effect on a snake that's being handled indoors?

Great discussion. I can definitely see both sides here, and I'm learning a lot from listening to everyone.

Heather

Some snakes are more high strung than others. Obviously when I have one of my snakes that does nothing but ball up in fear, I don't drag that snake out and about. However I have two normal males that are so mellow they simply don't care.
And snakes in the wild don't sit in their den all day, so that's a really bad analogy. If they did they wouldn't find things to eat or water to drink or other snakes to make wookie with. So they DO go out and explore in the wild, with no human to protect them either. If your snake is accustomed to being handled, then there is not a real problem(temp withstanding of course)
I'm in Florida, and lovely 80+ temps are common, and I take mine out, around my neck, and show him(either one) off a lot. People don't think "That's that weird woman" (ok, but not because of the snake) and parents don't panic and drag their kids away, the universe doesn't implode. Most people look over and make comments like "Look at that!! That's neat!" and go on, or they beeline for me to look closer(the more common reaction). They invariably ask me the typical myth questions of "Won't it kill you?" or "Will it bite you?" etc. I usually tell them my snake might bite, but it would do FAR less damage than one of my yorkies would if IT bit me. Telling them of the many tiny teeth, and what they eat, and what they require to be healthy, it all interests them, and I'm pretty sure they might just remember a little bit of it. But they go away with a little more information, and a little more respect for the animal, and sometimes a bit of awe at how terribly cool they are.
I don't see why anyone has to be so admatant that its such a horrible idea to take your snake out. Mine like the sunshine, and being ball pythons, unless I were to walk off for five minutes, they are not exactly quick escape artists. I hold them the entire time they are out, and I am careful to watch who comes up to me. Just like when I have one of my DOGS on a leash.
It's fun to share your passion for reptiles with the general public and I've not ever had an issue yet. The snakes don't stress out, and the people haven't stresed out.
Oh.. I do agree with the BADNESS of the idea of having other people's herps near yours. Playdates for herps, NOT a good idea at all, due to the risk of diesese or mites. Never put the snake on the grass either. Pesticides are too common.
wolfy

I don't recall I said it was a "horrible" idea. I think this is a very good thread about a very good topic that no one is getting out of line/bent out of shape posting in. :) I just think it's a personal decision that one must make taking into account all considerations, dangers, benefits, advice from others and whether in the end you are doing it for the good of the snake or for your own good.

Specific to my own collection...I have snakes like Orlah who would likely be just fine in most any situation, others like Ailish that would quite simply freak and it would be cruel to expose Ailish like that. Could even be the day though, Orlah might be fine today and antsy tomorrow so anything I want is secondary to her own best interests.