Issues with Puppy Obedience Training

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Originally Posted by joyful girl

here is the actual link to the section I posted http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm

but there is a lot more info here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll

and here http://www.grca-nrc.org/GAP-TrainingC2.pdf

Using negative reinforcement training used to be how most people thought it should be done. Now after finally realizing that it really doesn't help people are using postive reinforcement more and more.

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Awesome. That's exactly what I was looking for. :sweeet: Thank you.

you're welcome!

We do exercise her a lot in the house (it's old and has huge rooms) because we can't play fetch outside with her. Our yard is unfenced and she runs off completely ignoring any command to come back if we ever allow her offlead. We also have problems with a lot of loose or tied in open yards dogs here so we have to keep her under strict control outside the house for her own safety. In the house she knows this command and responds quite nicely, outside she will end up dead under the wheels of a car or in a dog fight if she's offlead (she tends to be quite aggressive with certain dogs even when they are many times her size). I've yet to find any kind of dog park here in Toledo. She does however get walked on lead but we will have to see if we can up this to burn off even more of her energy.

Since starting her on the head collar we are seeing a marked improvement (she picks up things very fast when she wants to). She fought it a lot but her walks yesterday where much better and easier on my shoulder. We kept her in the head collar and on lead at home all day yesterday and she was much more calm but of course she always is when she's glued to our sides.

She's not by the way a big dog at all. She's actually very strong but still just a pup and isn't built in a way that suggests she'll be particularily large for her breed (mix).

Anyone figure out about this peeing issue. I'd love to leave her out of her cage to sleep loose at night but I really hate replacing our mattress or couch. We had a dog years ago that would deliberately pee on our bed and the vet could only suggest it was jealousy over a new baby in the house (he would go do this when I sat down to nurse my newborn son).

We've never done the alpha roll with her. I have tried scruffing her and she submits then immediately jumps up, bounces all over us and completely misses the whole point of it so we gave up on that way to show her whose in charge.

Forgot to mention, when I'm up in the early morning hours alone, she's absolutely fine. She comes out of her cage, greets me fairly calmly, we go out for our morning walk and tree peeing thing and then she goes off to have breakfast, a drink and lays down quietly or plays/chews her squeeky toys happily. The problems start when everyone else gets up and interacts with each other. Then she becomes a different dog, forcing herself on everyone and acting out constantly to get attention. Late at night when Mike gets in from work and he's one on one with her, again she's calm and lovely to be around. She's completely impossible when company comes over, new people in the house seem to drive her to a frenzy of look at me, pet me bad behaviours. We've tried having company greet her on lead and all the other tricks I've seen or read about but in the end she just won't calm down and it's quite awful to have friends over right now.

She did better last night with the head collar/leash on though she had to actually flip herself over a few times realizing she couldn't fight her way loose to bounce all over the family. We were able to visit with family without as much constant interruption by Gunnar (no one ended up scratched and licked to death either....this is a good thing!)

I guess my frustration is that Gunnar is so darned smart that I can't figure out why she is causing so many problems. She obviously can be a nice pup as evidenced in the above paragraph. Also when I do training with her and she knows I have a pocket of treats she's amazing...immediately doing all activities and even trying to anticipate the commands to get the treats. She knows what's up and craves attention so why would she keep doing things that get her in trouble? I know she's a young dog but you'd think eventually being a smart pup she'd figure out that acting up isn't working really well.

You have it backwards...it's not that "she's so smart that this should be easy", it's "she's so smart that she's testing every way possible to control the household".

Sounds like a real hard-headed brat dog, and if she's repeating a behavior, it's because it's been successful for her in the past. With most dogs, the standard positive reinforcement stuff will work, but it's not right for every dog and in a situation like this I would use far more negative corrections. If you look at the way one dog controls another in a situation like that, there will be agressive posturing, barking, and yes, biting.

I have used a modified alpha roll (I put them on their sides, not their backs) on dominant pushy dogs...there's no playing, no tentative handling...you go with the full force of the righteous, and -put- the dog down firmly. They should feel the power and understand that you could hurt them easily. Of course, you don't hurt them...you put them -hard- on the ground and you hold them until they relax. If they struggle, you put them back hard. It's not a game they can play at...it's simply a fact of life that if you want them to be on the ground, that's where they'll be.

Once they relax and settle, take your hand away...if the dog tries to get up, put it back hard. Repeat until the dog acquiesces to your dominance. When the dog is calm, stroke and praise it for a few minutes and then allow it to get up.

This is not cruel, it's not inhumane, it's using normal canine interactions and body language to communicate to her that you are tired of putting up with her nonsense. Adult dogs discipline puppies like this all the time. A female will have no hesitation in correcting rowdy puppies, and as the leader of your pack, neither should you.

This will only work if you absolutely believe that you have the right to exert your will over the dogs. Until that time, this dog will continue to walk all over you.

As far as exercise goes, you cannot run her enough to tire her out at this age without risking damage to her joints. Running, jogging, etc, are all contraindicated in young large breed animals, since they have so much weight riding on joints not yet hardened. Walking is good, but I doubt you have time to walk her for the hours she'd need. Concentrate on being her boss, and get as much varied exercise as your schedule allows.

Edit: Forgot to add, I looooove headcollars. They give you so much more control, both physically and psychologically.

when we first got our bordie collie husky cross... the trainer suggested we get mental stimulation for him... they said this is almost as good as physical stimulation. so we picked up two gerbils and put them in a tank... and let him watch them. he loved it and calmed right down.

our other dog... a toy poodle... he wanted to be dominant over me (as i'm the boss in our home) and so, whenever i came into a room (from outside) he would pee.

in the end we rehomed him because we could not get his behaviour to stop and peeing everytime i come into the house is NOT good. in his new home... he hasn't peed once! (friggin' dog :( )

The scruffing I mentioned Jess is what you are describing. We just grab her firmly by the scruff and put her into a submissive posture and give her a sharp, though not hurtful, shake. Unfortunately for this very stubborn dog it just doesn't work for more than the few seconds we do it.

I will say the head collar and taking a firmer hand with her is amazing! Today she's been just wonderful, even off the leash in the house. When she starts getting wound up I just quickly put her back into the head collar and clip the leash on and she is getting the idea I'm done with this pushy brat behaviour. I can more easily control her leaping for attention with it and walking her today was a dream (even when a squirrel ran in front of her). I've been reinforcing the cage as a good thing by having her enter it and giving her a small bit of turkey if she goes in quietly and doesn't fuss when the door is shut. I'm actually typing this while she's loose in the house and she's not jumping on Mikey or being otherwise obnoxious! She has tried to lay on top of Mikey twice but did respond when ordered to get down off the couch where he was resting and watching tv (usually I have to physically haul her off him).

She did start some hysterical barking in her cage today while we were having lunch but I just clipped on the head collar, fed the leash out of the cage and everytime she barked I gave the leash a yank and SHHHHed at her sharply. Really seemed to make an impression and she gave up a lot quicker and settled for a rest while we ate.

Early days yet but thanks for all the suggestions and the support. Hopefully we'll continue to see improvement. I'm hoping one day she'll even be trustworthy on the couch and in our room. I'm thinking the peeing on the bed and couch are jealousy or dominance behaviours so maybe that can be worked with once we (and she) sort out the rest of the house and her place in it.

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Originally Posted by joyful girl

that is considered and Alpha roll and you should NEVER do that

not only are you using unnessasary negative reinforment but you are sending mixed signals.

What makes you think a dog is going to respond well to first being thrown on it's back then to be praised? All you will do is scare your dog into thinking you are going to hurt it.

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When dealing with out of control animals I have used the alpha roll with great success. I have retrained and placed in wonderful homes MANY great danes that were slated to be put down because of agressive behavior. When done properly it is a great tool. Non of the animals I worked with feared me. Most dogs don't need to be taken that far, but I would rather use a more extreme measure than put a difficult or so-called viscious dog down. What do you think pack animals do to keep peace within the pack? Your idea may work for you, but believe me, if the wrong animal comes along all I can say is good luck.

You have all my respect Nancy for dealing with an aggressive dog as large as a Great Dane.

For those that might be reading this and aren't familar with head collars for dogs here's a pic I just snapped of Gunnar in hers. Sorry it's so fuzzy. It was a bit hard to snap her picture while she wiggled and gleefully tried to lick the digi cam lense LOL. She looks a bit put out in the pic since I'd just corrected her for said wiggling and licking but she did manage to sit for the pic. The blue collar is her standard one and holds her license tags but for now we are exclusively using the black head collar with the lead.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...headcollar.jpg

Halti Head collars are wonderful for walking.
Glad to hear things are going well.
Wolfy

Sounds like you’re doing everything perfectly. I raise, show, train and rescue Cane Corso's, which are an extremely dominate large breed dog. They are in the mastiff family. I personally never ever use the alpha roll or the head collar, but I know a lot of people that do with great success. I train with prong collars and if use correctly they are very effective. I also use a squirt bottle filled with water and a very small amount of vinegar. They hate it and one or two squirts after being told to knock it off usually fixes the problem. My dogs are very much part of our family and all of them live inside. We don't permit any of them on the furniture uninvited and never on the beds. My rescues are my biggest challenge. They are rescues for a reason. Usually abused, neglected, aggressive, and/or no training what so ever. Lots of them are thrown away breeders that have been kept as kennel dogs their whole life so I have to start from the beginning with them. Consistency is the key to have a well behaved dog. Keep up the good work, and good luck. She is a very pretty girl.