can you breed siblings?

Line breeding has and always will go past the 2 generation of breeding with out it many morphs couldn't have been produced ie. Bloored corns, Silverqueen ghost, jungle BP's, and high yellow Leopard geckos to name a few. Though the more you line/inbreed the more likly you are to come across unwanted results. So most breeders don't breed past the F4 (Family 4) Generation. Not to say with a careful eye on breeding stock the "bad genetics" can't be weeded out, but it's really uneeded when you can outcross and recover recessive traits every 4 generations. Leopard geckos have been bred from the same stock for the last 25 years sice import of these stopped so the gene pool though diverse has been the same for that long with out problems.

For your reading pleasue. http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uro1001

(ive already gone through this with abernet on another forum) the whole inbreeding thing after about 2 generations is not a good idea as if physical deformities dont occur some deformities may become visible after several generations. its not worth screwing up the gene pool(after more than 2 gens of inbreeding).

---

Huh? Where was I? I don't remember this conversation - although I know the other forum, since it's the only other one I know you from.

The only things I really see having problems from inbreeding are mammals.

To add to the question...Why dont you see problems in reptile inbreeding offen? What symptomes do they normaly see? Derma ball type things? Loss of eyes? Chimeras?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uro1001

i knew something like this would come up. (ive already gone through this with abernet on another forum) the whole inbreeding thing after about 2 generations is not a good idea as if physical deformities dont occur some deformities may become visible after several generations. its not worth screwing up the gene pool(after more than 2 gens of inbreeding).

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uro1001

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...%20reptiles%22
its a study on lizards but its close enough :)

---

You still did not address the issue of why sib to sib inbreeding is allegedly different or worse than parent to offspring inbreeding.

While I applaud your effort to find primary scientific research to support your claim, I caution you that it really isnt useful to be a consumer of scientific research instead--you need to be a critical reader of research.

Often in biology you can make cross-species/cross-taxonomic comparisons and generaliztions, however, in this case its a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

The effects of inbreeding over generations by man are going to depend on the initial genetic structure of the population. Inbreeding for one generation in a captive population derived from a population of organisms that has undergone a major genetic bottleneck in its natural history can be fatal! Think cheetahs! That why zoos desperatly try to outbred them!

Now I dont beleive that ball pythons have undergone major genetic bottlenecks---there seems to be a lot of genetic diversity in the wild caught population (as evidenced by the number of base morphs). Hence, I dont think you can say for certain at this point when inbreeding will start to have serious consequences in the captive ball python population. Of course common sense can be applied....sib-to-sib inbreeding for 10-15 generations with no outbreeding isnt likely to produce desirable results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rabernet

Huh? Where was I? I don't remember this conversation - although I know the other forum, since it's the only other one I know you from.

---

it was on repticzone.com a while back.

adam, i have seen several(not mine) albino,norm,hets and various other deformed bps not concluded from inbreeding but most were suspected. im dropping out of this subject as some type of debate always comes up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uro1001

it was on repticzone.com a while back.

---

Yes, I know the forum - I don't remember the conversation :confuzd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uro1001

i have seen several(not mine) albino,norm,hets and various other deformed bps not concluded from inbreeding but most were suspected.

---

So you're giving your OPINION ... gotcha ... that's all I wanted to know. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by uro1001

im dropping out of this subject as some type of debate always comes up.

---

Well, that's convenient ... kinda like yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theater and running like heck .... nice. ;)

-adam

Mendel, I remember reading a post you made some time ago about how the reason why ball pythons have so many varying mutations is because there is a relatively high population in a concentrated geographic area. Given this, would they be more or less resilient to "genetic bottlenecking" than other species with more geographically dispersed populations?

i think adam knows 100!

People have mentioned bloodred corns a few times. I've got a small group of bloodred corns I got from Kathy Love a number of years ago that I've been breeding for several years. While most of the hatchlings are great snakes and surprising good feeders (bloodreds have a reputation for being picky feeders that need lizard scenting, I've never had that problem with these) However I do get one or two in every clutch that are 'neurologically challenged' IE: they spin like some spiders do. (but they have such neat personalities :rolleyes: ) Is that a result of inbreeding? Of Just an anomoly of the particular parents that I have. (they were allegedy non-siblings from seperate breeding groups that Kathy had, though ALL bloodred corns are somewhat related)

However, I'm also working with a line of ghost corns that I've personally bred though the 4th generation now and I've seen NO problems with them. Does that mean that inbreeding is fine? Or does it just mean that I've been lucky?

And actually, since they are completely different species, comparing corns to balls probably does no good at all. I personally don't know anyone who has bred sibling balls together through more then 2 generations, so I really don't know what would happen. (and I doubt very many other people would know either)

When all is said and done, my advise would be to just try it for yourself, keep good records, and post your findings.

Mark